Fat - is it really bad/good?

[ghost_whistler]

The problem with accepting 'evidence based science' at face value, is that anyone can provide alternative facts as the evidence. And then the article is written very much based on personal opinion.
So, read both sides, and decide for yourself who is actually presenting evidence, and who is manipulating it for an agenda.
If you can find the absolute answer, that's good.
Otherwise, I'll settle for who is most correct, based on the different studies, and also presentations of the same evidence from both sides.

But remember, not everything on the internet is true.

Quite so, which is my point.

i'm sitting here eating a fatty breakfast that would pronably not make my GP happy. I don't know if it's healthy or not. Problems don't show up right away.

Some people point to the fact that big business has a stake in the current dietary paradigm, but that includes the meat industry so why would they want people not to eat the fat you get off the bacon and pork slice i've just eaten (along with the fatty rind).

There has to be more to it than just assumptions, which is why science is important. So we'd have to look at peer reviewed research.

Don't get me wrong, i could eat this stuff all day, but the question is whether that's healthy. Since i'm eating less carbs, there is a deficit that needs filling.

 

[ghost_whistler]

All you have to do is up the fat, not eat loads of it, gradually raise the amount of natural fat.
I have found that polyunsaturated and vegetable oils are no good for me!

You do have to find your own levels and how you cook and what with.

But how can you tell? The effects don't show up right away. You can't go to the GP and ask for a cholesterol test every day - in fact if eating fats helps, the positive effects might not show up until later, so you go and test and find a false result feeding you false information.

 

[douglas99]

Quite so, which is my point.

i'm sitting here eating a fatty breakfast that would pronably not make my GP happy. I don't know if it's healthy or not. Problems don't show up right away.

Some people point to the fact that big business has a stake in the current dietary paradigm, but that includes the meat industry so why would they want people not to eat the fat you get off the bacon and pork slice i've just eaten (along with the fatty rind).

There has to be more to it than just assumptions, which is why science is important. So we'd have to look at peer reviewed research.

Don't get me wrong, i could eat this stuff all day, but the question is whether that's healthy. Since i'm eating less carbs, there is a deficit that needs filling.

There isn't any answer.
There are interpretations of the information out there.
Usually based on meta analysis of studies chosen by the group who may or may not be biased.
The interpretation varies depending on the interpreter.
Peer review simply agrees that they can't dismiss the interpretation, not that the peers agree it's the best, or even one they would make.
Then further reporting highlights one aspect of the study, and disregards reporting the parts they don't like themselves.

I had similar questions to you initially, I never found the ultimate 'proof', so I'm not quite as convinced by the fairly small group of 'pioneers' that claim it's the healthiest, and best way to eat yet, scientific views may be changing, there may be videos telling me that, but like you I wanted to be sure it was the holy grail it's sold as, and everyone else was lying, or was part of a big conspiracy.
I never found it, so I decided to base my diet on what worked for me, and seems least likely to be proven to kill me overall.

Now I eat a couple of Ryvita, with a bit of cheese and ham on for breakfast every morning, along with a decaf with skimmed milk.

LCHF is new, you're the guinea pig for a generation that's decided it's the best way to eat.
There'll be a lot more data in a few decades, and that's when the real results will be available.

 

[azure]

But how can you tell? The effects don't show up right away. You can't go to the GP and ask for a cholesterol test every day - in fact if eating fats helps, the positive effects might not show up until later, so you go and test and find a false result feeding you false information.

I don't eat high fat because I have concerns about it. I suggested experimenting with diets on your other thread. You then said you were happy with low carb. As you say, the deficit has to be made up from somewhere so that means fat or protein. So are you happy eating fat?

Some people with Type 2 diabetes or Reactive Hypoglycaemia have found a low carb high fat diet helpful. You've not been diagnosed with either of those, so your needs are different - which is good because you have more leeway to experiment.

If eating too much fat concerns you, then don't. It's that simple. Nobody here can tell you the perfect diet for you. Be guided by your own judgement.

There is no definitive answer.

 

[ghost_whistler]

I don't eat high fat because I have concerns about it. I suggested experimenting with diets on your other thread. You then said you were happy with low carb. As you say, the deficit has to be made up from somewhere so that means fat or protein. So are you happy eating fat?

Some people with Type 2 diabetes or Reactive Hypoglycaemia have found a low carb high fat diet helpful. You've not been diagnosed with either of those, so your needs are different - which is good because you have more leeway to experiment.

If eating too much fat concerns you, then don't. It's that simple. Nobody here can tell you the perfect diet for you. Be guided by your own judgement.

There is no definitive answer.

I don't have any answers to my own question either. Again the power of the orthodoxy is really strong. Can I really get away with sausage and bacon every morning?

Now, sure, I could cut back on the fat. Ok, but what do I replace it with? If I go back to carbs, it's a step backwards, if I replace with proteins then there are problems there too. We might think there should be a balance, but that could be a matter of perception, because balance appeals to us. But one way or the other I believe that you can't have low carbs and low fat.

 

[azure]

I know I've already said this probably, but the obvious thing is to find a level of carbs you're happy at and then that will inform the amount of fat you eat.

My concern is that you've self-diagnosed with RH and are thus interpreting all diet options through that lens.

As for sausage and bacon, there are other issues such as red meat intake, nitrites, cost, etc. My own opinion is that the answer, in as far as we can get an answer, is moderation in all things. That way we're hopefully covered and haven't made a commitment we may later regret.

 

[Pinkorchid]

Quite so, which is my point.

i'm sitting here eating a fatty breakfast that would pronably not make my GP happy. I don't know if it's healthy or not. Problems don't show up right away.

Some people point to the fact that big business has a stake in the current dietary paradigm, but that includes the meat industry so why would they want people not to eat the fat you get off the bacon and pork slice i've just eaten (along with the fatty rind).

There has to be more to it than just assumptions, which is why science is important. So we'd have to look at peer reviewed research.

Don't get me wrong, i could eat this stuff all day, but the question is whether that's healthy. Since i'm eating less carbs, there is a deficit that needs filling.

No we do not know for sure if high fat is healthy for us we are only going on what a few people have said in the media but we don't know yet if they are right or not so we have to decide it for ourselves it is personal choice They say fat is not as bad as was thought but they don't say you have to eat it. I would always say to people if asked do what you feel is right for you not what others say. I personally do not believe I need to eat more fat especially as I do not like rich fatty stuff like cream, full fat dairy and fried breakfasts and I do not eat red meat and that is my choice and I certainly do not believe low fat causes T2. My diet now is much lower in starchy carbs and of course no sugar stuff and my BG levels are good. At 77 apart from the T2 I am in very good health have never been overweight and no other illnesses or mobility problems so I am happy the way I am

 

[ghost_whistler]

I know I've already said this probably, but the obvious thing is to find a level of carbs you're happy at and then that will inform the amount of fat you eat.

My concern is that you've self-diagnosed with RH and are thus interpreting all diet options through that lens.

As for sausage and bacon, there are other issues such as red meat intake, nitrites, cost, etc. My own opinion is that the answer, in as far as we can get an answer, is moderation in all things. That way we're hopefully covered and haven't made a commitment we may later regret.

I don't know how to do that; bread/wheat were my source of carbs. Removing those is leads me to low carb. I don't really want to try them again.

Also, I'm about 20kg overweight. Technically my weight to height ratio is categorised as obese, even though i don't think I look it. So I will need to bring that down. I've come this far (day 6) of this low carb and it would seem counter productive to change it now. I don't know about ketosis, I don't feel i'm ketotic. I don't know how I would really know. I don't seem to have any of the indicators and I don't have a testing facility. That said, my hunger/hypos have improved, I feel my mood has improved somewhat, I haven't gained any weight, but I don't seem to have lost any. Whether that's relevatn at this stage, I do not know, but having come even this far, small steps though they may be, I'm reluctant to change radically - because I feel it would have to be. If you're not interested in the ketosis level of low carb then you're going to need to be at least 150g a day to function properly, so that's a difference of at least 100g. I don't know how to get that without going back to bread, and quite honestly I'd rather not, even though bread is cheap.

The only negative i've felt so far is a little heaviness in the breath

 

[ghost_whistler]

No we do not know for sure if high fat is healthy for us we are only going on what a few people have said in the media but we don't know yet if they are right or not so we have to decide it for ourselves it is personal choice They say fat is not as bad as was thought but they don't say you have to eat it. I would always say to people if asked do what you feel is right for you not what others say. I personally do not believe I need to eat more fat especially as I do not like rich fatty stuff like cream, full fat dairy and fried breakfasts and I do not eat red meat and that is my choice and I certainly do not believe low fat causes T2. My diet now is much lower in starchy carbs and of course no sugar stuff and my BG levels are good. At 77 apart from the T2 I am in very good health have never been overweight and no other illnesses or mobility problems so I am happy the way I am

That's great.

You say your diet is much lower in starchy carbs, but just how much carbs do you eat? I think that's more informative.

 

[douglas99]

I don't know how to do that; bread/wheat were my source of carbs. Removing those is leads me to low carb. I don't really want to try them again.

Also, I'm about 20kg overweight. Technically my weight to height ratio is categorised as obese, even though i don't think I look it. So I will need to bring that down. I've come this far (day 6) of this low carb and it would seem counter productive to change it now. I don't know about ketosis, I don't feel i'm ketotic. I don't know how I would really know. I don't seem to have any of the indicators and I don't have a testing facility. That said, my hunger/hypos have improved, I feel my mood has improved somewhat, I haven't gained any weight, but I don't seem to have lost any. Whether that's relevatn at this stage, I do not know, but having come even this far, small steps though they may be, I'm reluctant to change radically - because I feel it would have to be. If you're not interested in the ketosis level of low carb then you're going to need to be at least 150g a day to function properly, so that's a difference of at least 100g. I don't know how to get that without going back to bread, and quite honestly I'd rather not, even though bread is cheap.

I can survive on any amount of carbs.
I don't count them, as I just don't overeat.

 

[Pinkorchid]

That's great.

You say your diet is much lower in starchy carbs, but just how much carbs do you eat? I think that's more informative.

I do not count carbs I just do not eat any sugar or wheat stuff, pasta, rice or bread. I sometimes have few tiny new potatoes I eat most vegetables and some fruit I just do not eat large portions of anything

 

[ghost_whistler]

I do not count carbs I just do not eat any sugar or wheat stuff, pasta, rice or bread. I sometimes have few tiny new potatoes I eat most vegetables and some fruit I just do not eat large portions of anything

what do you eat in place of wheat?

 

[azure]

I don't know how to do that; bread/wheat were my source of carbs. Removing those is leads me to low carb. I don't really want to try them again.

Also, I'm about 20kg overweight. Technically my weight to height ratio is categorised as obese, even though i don't think I look it. So I will need to bring that down. I've come this far (day 6) of this low carb and it would seem counter productive to change it now. I don't know about ketosis, I don't feel i'm ketotic. I don't know how I would really know. I don't seem to have any of the indicators and I don't have a testing facility. That said, my hunger/hypos have improved, I feel my mood has improved somewhat, I haven't gained any weight, but I don't seem to have lost any. Whether that's relevatn at this stage, I do not know, but having come even this far, small steps though they may be, I'm reluctant to change radically - because I feel it would have to be. If you're not interested in the ketosis level of low carb then you're going to need to be at least 150g a day to function properly, so that's a difference of at least 100g. I don't know how to get that without going back to bread, and quite honestly I'd rather not, even though bread is cheap.

The only negative i've felt so far is a little heaviness in the breath

There are other sources of carbs apart from bread, if you're trying to avoid that, eg other grains, sweet poatoes, rice, amaranth, buckwheat, fruit, white potatoes, etc, etc.

No, you're not correct about carbs. It's not a choice of practically none or 150g plus. There's nothing to stop you or anyone eating 80g a day, 100g, 120g or whatever.

As you've mentioned a fair amount of excess weight, then perhaps it would be worth asking for another HbA1c if you haven't had one recently. Hunger can be one of the signs of hypoglycaemia but it's far from the main one, and the blood test results you've given elsewhere here don't suggest hypoglycaemia. Hunger can also be associated with high blood sugar, and insulin resistance.

 

[douglas99]

quinoa and bulgur wheat are two of mine.

 

[Hotpepper20000]

what do you eat in place of wheat?

Spinach, kale, swisschard, Zucchini, tomatoes, mushrooms, tomatoes, radishes, squash, cauliflower, broccoli.......

 

[Lamont D]

I don't know how to do that; bread/wheat were my source of carbs. Removing those is leads me to low carb. I don't really want to try them again.

Also, I'm about 20kg overweight. Technically my weight to height ratio is categorised as obese, even though i don't think I look it. So I will need to bring that down. I've come this far (day 6) of this low carb and it would seem counter productive to change it now. I don't know about ketosis, I don't feel i'm ketotic. I don't know how I would really know. I don't seem to have any of the indicators and I don't have a testing facility. That said, my hunger/hypos have improved, I feel my mood has improved somewhat, I haven't gained any weight, but I don't seem to have lost any. Whether that's relevatn at this stage, I do not know, but having come even this far, small steps though they may be, I'm reluctant to change radically - because I feel it would have to be. If you're not interested in the ketosis level of low carb then you're going to need to be at least 150g a day to function properly, so that's a difference of at least 100g. I don't know how to get that without going back to bread, and quite honestly I'd rather not, even though bread is cheap.

The only negative i've felt so far is a little heaviness in the breath

I think you have started quite positive, you seem to be in a hurry for things to happen even though you have noticed a difference already!

Unfortunately, these things do take time and you have a long way to go until you find your preferred low carb regime!

As for high(er) fat, as long as you are slowly reducing your carbs, slowly increase the natural fats! It has to be natural fats, just up them until you feel full with a small meal!
Smaller meals more often, low carb, with a few carbs each meal, should help with the hunger and help you in adjusting to the diet.

 

[douglas99]

Natural fats versus trans fats?

Trans fats were initially made in the 1950's, and were popular until a decade or two ago, but went out when the WHO declared them unsafe, and set a limit of making them less than 1% of your diet.
They occur nowadays naturally at low levels in some animal fats.
They're a hydrogenated fat, so also form when deep fat frying repeatedly in the same oil.
Beyond that you're very unlikely to find them nowadays.
Probably the biggest source nowadays is found in butter, but's that's only around 5g per 100g, so you would still have to go some to make that more than 1%, (unless you eat a lot of butter).

 

[ghost_whistler]

I think you have started quite positive, you seem to be in a hurry for things to happen even though you have noticed a difference already!

Unfortunately, these things do take time and you have a long way to go until you find your preferred low carb regime!

As for high(er) fat, as long as you are slowly reducing your carbs, slowly increase the natural fats! It has to be natural fats, just up them until you feel full with a small meal!
Smaller meals more often, low carb, with a few carbs each meal, should help with the hunger and help you in adjusting to the diet.

I think you might have misunderstood me. By cutting the bread/wheat I've cut carbs to ketogenic levels (as far as I can tell). There was no half way house.

So far I have not entered the ketogenic state, and am beginning to wonder whether I should.

The problem is that, while i respect people saying I should eat whatever feels good, there are established requirements for the body. 150g carb seems to be the minimum in order to function outside of this ketotic state.

 

[azure]

I think you might have misunderstood me. By cutting the bread/wheat I've cut carbs to ketogenic levels (as far as I can tell). There was no half way house.

So far I have not entered the ketogenic state, and am beginning to wonder whether I should.

The problem is that, while i respect people saying I should eat whatever feels good, there are established requirements for the body. 150g carb seems to be the minimum in order to function outside of this ketotic state.

That is WRONG! A person can eat 80g carbs and still function. Or 100g. Or 75g. Or 110g. Or.....whatever!

 

[Hotpepper20000]

That is WRONG! A person can eat 80g carbs and still function. Or 100g. Or 75g. Or 110g. Or.....whatever!

I agree with this I would also like to add that there is a misconception that carbs are only bread/pasta/grains and the like.
Vegetables also have carbs.