How insulin resistance begins in muscles

[Bluetit1802]

I'd think that >50g of carbs combined with fat covers almost everyone in the western world.

We could see a rise in metabolic disorders and heart disease at any moment!

LOL. And many many people eating more than the average >250g carbs with high fat.

 

[Guzzler]

According to some research I saw that used rats and was repeated on a group of humans, a 50:50 ratio of fat and carbs in a food / meal is the most addictive and damaging combination. Apparently cheesecake has 50:50 fat:carb ratio

Chocolate, too. The brain lights up at the mere sight of it. The 50/50 ratio acts on humans just as the bell did on Pavlov's dogs.

 

[Boo1979]

Chocolate, too. The brain lights up at the mere sight of it. The 50/50 ratio acts on humans just as the bell did on Pavlov's dogs.

Montezuma 100% dark choc is 13:8 fat:carb ratio

 

[Guzzler]

Montezuma 100% dark choc is 13:8 fat:carb ratio

I was speaking of the box standard stuff but the 100% chocolate is too bitter for my taste. I can't have chocolate anyway (though I have been known to cheat) but I used to enjoy the 85%.

 

[Olufisayo]

Right now as I am having some pin pricks all over my body. My readings were 9.7 @ 8:43 am and 6.7 @11:02 am respectively. I took metformin 500 mg and clamide 5mg following my brunch. I added some salad wth Bama cream with my brunch. The salad filled me up.

 

[Tannith]

Right now as I am having some pin pricks all over my body. My readings were 9.7 @ 8:43 am and 6.7 @11:02 am respectively. I took metformin 500 mg and clamide 5mg following my brunch. I added some salad wth Bama cream with my brunch. The salad filled me up.

Intramyocellular lipid concentrations are correlated with insulin sensitivity in humans: a 1H NMR spectroscopy study.
Krssak M1, Falk Petersen K, Dresner A, DiPietro L, Vogel SM, Rothman DL, Roden M, Shulman GI. Why does everyone always seem to leap to the conclusion that blood lipids are about fat IN THE DIET? The lipids in question were triglycerides which are made in the body from all foods, especially carbohydrates. This effect would occur whatever type of calories you ate in excess and which the body tried to store.

 

[Tannith]

Intramyocellular lipid concentrations are correlated with insulin sensitivity in humans: a 1H NMR spectroscopy study.
Krssak M1, Falk Petersen K, Dresner A, DiPietro L, Vogel SM, Rothman DL, Roden M, Shulman GI. Why does everyone always seem to leap to the conclusion that blood lipids are about fat IN THE DIET? The lipids in question were triglycerides which are made in the body from all foods, especially carbohydrates. This effect would occur whatever type of calories you ate in excess and which the body tried to store.

Mechanism of Free Fatty Acid–induced Insulin Resistance in Humans Michael Roden, Thomas B. Price, Gianluca Perseghin, Kitt Falk Petersen, Douglas L. Rothman, Gary W. Cline, and Gerald I. Shulman Department of Internal Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06520

 

[Oldvatr]

A word or two of Caution. My wife has been hoodwinked into buying the Michael Greger bookset, and has started WFPB diet for her Parkinsons. I tried 2 meals of his, that she cooked according to his recipe, and my daily bgl average jumped from a usual figure around 6 mmol/l to over 14 mmol/l.and two days later I am still registering 9 mmol/l. I feel like **** and have been falling asleep most of today feeling ultra tired. I did not sleep very well last night

 

[Kentoldlady1]

The site is also a shining example of the dangers inherant in assuming that some peoples personal experience is automatically transferable and therefore appropriate for others. It leads to the kind of assertions too often seen that someone “must” do x or that food y is “evil” or “sludge”.
I wince and worry in equal measure whenever I see members being told such things. Pesonal experience at the end of the day is just that and nothing more - to claim otherwise is pure arrogance
I eat low carb moderate fat because thats what works best for my body at the moment, although at other stages not,, but thats all I would ever claim

I agree. Which is why sites like dietdoctor and people like Jason fung are so important. They are actual medical professionals that are changing how the world can treat type 2 diabetes. Not quacks, or people out to stop us eating meat, but actual doctors treating actual diabetics. I follow Jason fungs advice. No longer have hbalc in the diabetic range. However, that's only me. It is amazing tho, how many t2ds that follow a lchf way of eating do manage to get low hbalc and stop the "inescapable" rise of diabetic symptoms. Whereas those who follow a typical carb low fat diet have a "typical" progression. But as you say, that's only us. And of course, all the others that have done it.

 

[Oldvatr]

My reading of the OP was that fat can be visualised in muscles with MRI, and that fat levels observed seem to correlate with IR, measured by other means not specified. Not that I'm saying that's true, just what I understood from the post.

Muscle cells are controlled by the Krebs cycle (citric cycle) that has nothing to do with lipids.

 

[Oldvatr]

My reading of the OP was that fat can be visualised in muscles with MRI, and that fat levels observed seem to correlate with IR, measured by other means not specified. Not that I'm saying that's true, just what I understood from the post.

The MRI used in the ND diet studies had great difficulty measuring fatty tissue in humans in the liver (NAFLD and so would definitely struggle to measure it in a muscle or two, That was cutting edge science last year where they developed new techniques to interpret the MRI scans.

 

[Guzzler]

The MRI used in the ND diet studies had great difficulty measuring fatty tissue in humans in the liver (NAFLD and so would definitely struggle to measure it in a muscle or two, That was cutting edge science last year where they developed new techniqies to interpret the MRI scans.

It was the zooped up machine at Newcastle that got me thinking.

 

[Oldvatr]

The site is also a shining example of the dangers inherant in assuming that some peoples personal experience is automatically transferable and therefore appropriate for others. It leads to the kind of assertions too often seen that someone “must” do x or that food y is “evil” or “sludge”.
I wince and worry in equal measure whenever I see members being told such things. Pesonal experience at the end of the day is just that and nothing more - to claim otherwise is pure arrogance
I eat low carb moderate fat because thats what works best for my body at the moment, although at other stages not,, but thats all I would ever claim

Sorry I go by the pattern I see reading others experience as well as just my own experience, One person crying in the wilderness is just that, but a thousand voices in unison has more credibility. When there are scientific studies involving many thousands, supporting the statements being made, then it starts to have momentum.

On the other hand I see guys like Michael Greger writing books and blogs, and when I ask if there is supporting evidence either by the OP personal experience, or scientific studies from independnt sources, then there is suddenly silence, or more links to glossy sales sites like NutritionFacts.

 

[ringi]

I agree with Greger that fat in muscle cells may be responsible for increasing the insulin resistance of the muscle cells (Dr Fung says the same). I also agree with Greger that we should eat a lot less sugar and processed food.

People who go on his vegan diets cut right down on their sugar intake, and often also cut down on process carbs – this is clearly in line with what most of us do. He also gets people to eat lots of green vegs, and above ground veg.

However, as a vegan, he is unable to accept that meat and fish are the centre stone of low carb diets! It is also very hard to do a “very low carb” diet as a vegan.

His claims that eating animal fat is what leads to fat in our bodies is clearly wrong, as it has been proven that excess carbs are what results in our body creating fat. But by removing sugar from people's diets he does get results.

So we have someone who I consider to be wrong in many ways, getting people to do a diet that is better than the NHS eat well plate….

 

[Oldvatr]

I agree with Greger that fat in muscle cells may be responsible for increasing the insulin resistance of the muscle cells (Dr Fung says the same). I also agree with Greger that we should eat a lot less sugar and processed food.

People who go on his vegan diets cut right down on their sugar intake, and often also cut down on process carbs – this is clearly in line with what most of us do. He also gets people to eat lots of green vegs, and above ground veg.

However, as a vegan, he is unable to accept that meat and fish are the centre stone of low carb diets! It is also very hard to do a “very low carb” diet as a vegan.

His claims that eating animal fat is what leads to fat in our bodies is clearly wrong, as it has been proven that excess carbs are what results in our body creating fat. But by removing sugar from people's diets he does get results.

So we have someone who I consider to be wrong in many ways, getting people to do a diet that is better than the NHS eat well plate….

It is a plausible theory that T2D IR is caused by fat in the muscle cells, However I am not aware that any scientific research has actually demonstrated this. One of the problems is that the fat in muscle cells tends to be glucogen, not lipid based (again Krebs Cycle) and it is only recently that the likes of Fung et al have presented this theory, This is based on observing the first stage of ketosis where low glucose levels lead to weight loss, primarily glucogen and water, but full keto is where fat burning starts on the lipid fat stores. It seems that reduction in IR and recovery of metabolism follows serious weight loss either through VLCal or VLCarb i,e, is due to loss of lipid fat, but the assumption that it is muscle fat loss may be premature assumption, Certainly just losing glucogen weight alone does not seem to reset the system

 

[Alexandra100]

Chocolate, too. The brain lights up at the mere sight of it. The 50/50 ratio acts on humans just as the bell did on Pavlov's dogs.

Ah, cheesecake! I remember cheesecake. My brain lights up at the mere thought of it. Do you think that is harmful?

 

[CherryAA]

We ARE seeing a rise in metabolic disorders and heart disease at EVERY moment !

 

[CherryAA]

A word or two of Caution. My wife has been hoodwinked into buying the Michael Greger bookset, and has started WFPB diet for her Parkinsons. I tried 2 meals of his, that she cooked according to his recipe, and my daily bgl average jumped from a usual figure around 6 mmol/l to over 14 mmol/l.and two days later I am still registering 9 mmol/l. I feel like **** and have been falling asleep most of today feeling ultra tired. I did not sleep very well last night

Has she actually tried LCHF for her Parkinson's ?

I'd think that >50g of carbs combined with fat covers almost everyone in the western world.

We could see a rise in metabolic disorders and heart disease at any moment!

 

[Oldvatr]

Has she actually tried LCHF for her Parkinson's ?

She was doing LCHF with me but she is a true carboholic and demands a high carb diet to maintain her 20 stone weight and feed her mind. Unfortuntely an old schoolfriend has intervened and turned her head, This same person is also marketing so called health supplements in her MLM home business, and was the one who advised my son to do WFPB and use ground up almond and apricot kernals to treat his cancer (kernals which she just happens to sell), Some people are just gullible.

I ate her WFPB meals with her last week, and suffered greatly from the experience. However, even sharing my meter readings with her does not get through, and so I am now self catering and doing LC with a vengeance to get my bgl back under control.

I still advise that most of the WFPB adherents I have had contact with are actually dangerous zealots, and a public danger when they peddle their dubious advice. I liken them to Big Pharma with their statin pills. Cures everything? Nope! Got good evidence for it? Nope! False claims? Yep! Pseudo Science? You Bet! Accepted by mainstream Nutritionalists? unfortunately so

PS this rant is nothing to do with Veganism or Vegetarians, who follow perfectly viable diet alternatives.

Edit to add Update: It has taken me a week to recover from the WFPB meals and regain control of my bgl. It is not directly due to the meals themselves, but eating the high carb in them did trigger my carb craving, and I started snacking in a big way as a result. It took a week to reset my satiety trigger so I now see bgl back in the low 6's again.

 

[Tannith]

She was doing LCHF with me but she is a true carboholic and demands a high carb diet to maintain her 20 stone weight and feed her mind. Unfortuntely an old schoolfriend has intervened and turned her head, This same person is also marketing so called health supplements in her MLM home business, and was the one who advised my son to do WFPB and use ground up almond and apricot kernals to treat his cancer (kernals which she just happens to sell), Some people are just gullible.

I ate her WFPB meals with her last week, and suffered greatly from the experience. However, even sharing my meter readings with her does not get through, and so I am now self catering and doing LC with a vengeance to get my bgl back under control.

I still advise that most of the WFPB adherents I have had contact with are actually dangerous zealots, and a public danger when they peddle their dubious advice. I liken them to Big Pharma with their statin pills. Cures everything? Nope! Got good evidence for it? Nope! False claims? Yep! Pseudo Science? You Bet! Accepted by mainstream Nutritionalists? unfortunately so

PS this rant is nothing to do with Veganism or Vegetarians, who follow perfectly viable diet alternatives.

I believe ground up apricot kernels contain cyanide and actually cause cancer.