How to get into low-carb without IR?

[Eldra]

Hi,

I have been thinking quite a bit about going for a ketosis diet with very low carbs (about 30g/day), however some questions are still in my mind.

The last time I went for 50-70g of carbs/day, my body ended up in physiological insulin resistance (IR) which in turn put me to very high BS readings throughout the day no matter what. How is it possible to even go lower and yet avoid that??

Apparently there are claism here and there that eating a lot of proteins can knock you out of ketosis. SO how come a very famous advocate of very low carb diets, namely Dr Bernstein, says that we should eat a lot of proteins? I must say I haven't read his book, although I am seriously thinking to buy it soon.

What happens if you are on a ketosis diet and you inadvertantly go out of ketosis because you ate justa bit too much carbs one day?

I am type 1 diabetic, just to mention. I think the mechanisms and therefore the answers to these question might be sensibly different compared to type 2.

Thank you very much in advance for any opinion

 

[Kristin251]

Hi,

I have been thinking quite a bit about going for a ketosis diet with very low carbs (about 30g/day), however some questions are still in my mind.

The last time I went for 50-70g of carbs/day, my body ended up in physiological insulin resistance (IR) which in turn put me to very high BS readings throughout the day no matter what. How is it possible to even go lower and yet avoid that??

Apparently there are claism here and there that eating a lot of proteins can knock you out of ketosis. SO how come a very famous advocate of very low carb diets, namely Dr Bernstein, says that we should eat a lot of proteins? I must say I haven't read his book, although I am seriously thinking to buy it soon.

What happens if you are on a ketosis diet and you inadvertantly go out of ketosis because you ate justa bit too much carbs one day?

I am type 1 diabetic, just to mention. I think the mechanisms and therefore the answers to these question might be sensibly different compared to type 2.

Thank you very much in advance for any opinion

Bernsteins book was written a long time ago. I don't think he was necessarily high protein but rather chose your protein amounts for each meal and stick with it at each meal at each time of day.
I follow closelyish to Bernstein and his laws of small numbers. There are more recent books that speak of protein spiking insulin as well as bg later. I am ultra lc, MODERATE protein and then eat healthy fats until satisfied. No more , no less.
I am very insulin sensative, not resistant. Why do you think you're resistant ?
There is a trick with lc and protein. I bolus for 1/2 my protein as if it were carbs. I eat no more than three ounces at a time and if I do I need to split my bolus. Protein takes a while to digest and of course the time it takes is dose dependent. So if I ( and many others find the same with over 3 oz) eat more than 3 oz and bolus for it all at once my insulin will get there before the protein and I'll drop. If I take half at the beginning and a half an hour later it matches my food and insulin timing much better. However if I eat a large animal fatty meal I could potentially need another dose. My trick is to spread moderate amounts of protein out throughout the day rather than large amounts at one time.
The idea of ketosis for me is to keep glycogen stores as empty as possible. Both carbs and protein fill those stores. So if I over eat carbs OR protein and fill those stores it will take me a few days to empty them and bs will be a bit higher and I'll need a bit more insulin until they're empty.

I bolus 4 times a day for 4 small meals I also need an extra bolus an hour after bf to stop the morning rise. This keeps my insulin levels low and my bg very low. I did loads of testing to find the right sized meals and macro combos and now I'm on autopilot. I eat the same sized meals at each meal and I know the dose. I don't eat the same food. I mix up proteins and veg as well as fats but meals are consistent. It works for me and I'm never really hungry. I don't like large meals. They make me hungry. I'd rather snack during the day for steady fuel.

Hope this helps

 

[Bluetit1802]

The last time I went for 50-70g of carbs/day, my body ended up in physiological insulin resistance (IR) which in turn put me to very high BS readings throughout the day no matter what. How is it possible to even go lower and yet avoid that??

I am T2 unmedicated, so it may be very different. However, physiological insulin resistance (which is different from diabetes IR) is when our body believes were are low on glucose, which we are when there is an absence of carbs. The body tells the cells to reject whatever glucose there is in order to save it for the brain. It is usually temporary, and resolved by increasing carbs slightly for a day or two.

 

[Kristin251]

As well as making sure there's enough fat in the diet ( or on your body) to use as fuel instead of carbs. The body will always burn carbs first and when those are depleted, if you're not fat adapted you probably won't feel well as the body won't go to fat burning until it's denied carbs for a period of time

 

[Eldra]

As well as making sure there's enough fat in the diet ( or on your body) to use as fuel instead of carbs. The body will always burn carbs first and when those are depleted, if you're not fat adapted you probably won't feel well as the body won't go to fat burning until it's denied carbs for a period of time

This may make sense then. I have been increasing my fat intake, but didn't deny carbs enough maybe (since around 50-60 is the lowest I went to) to trigger ketosis. I am guessing triggering ketosis would lift this physiological IR?

 

[Eldra]

I am T2 unmedicated, so it may be very different. However, physiological insulin resistance (which is different from diabetes IR) is when our body believes were are low on glucose, which we are when there is an absence of carbs. The body tells the cells to reject whatever glucose there is in order to save it for the brain. It is usually temporary, and resolved by increasing carbs slightly for a day or two.

To this point that is exactly what I have deduced from my readings. I currently eat about a 100g of carbs per day to avoid this IR again, although this weekend I have been a bit more lazy and skipped a couple meals, and it went on again. My BS this Sunday were terribly bad... I feel a bit ashamed

 

[Bluetit1802]

To this point that is exactly what I have deduced from my readings. I currently eat about a 100g of carbs per day to avoid this IR again, although this weekend I have been a bit more lazy and skipped a couple meals, and it went on again. My BS this Sunday were terribly bad... I feel a bit ashamed

From all I have read about PIR is you have to be very low carb for it to occur.

 

[BrianTheElder]

Hi,

I have been thinking quite a bit about going for a ketosis diet with very low carbs (about 30g/day), however some questions are still in my mind.

The last time I went for 50-70g of carbs/day, my body ended up in physiological insulin resistance (IR) which in turn put me to very high BS readings throughout the day no matter what. How is it possible to even go lower and yet avoid that??

Apparently there are claism here and there that eating a lot of proteins can knock you out of ketosis. SO how come a very famous advocate of very low carb diets, namely Dr Bernstein, says that we should eat a lot of proteins? I must say I haven't read his book, although I am seriously thinking to buy it soon.

What happens if you are on a ketosis diet and you inadvertantly go out of ketosis because you ate justa bit too much carbs one day?

I am type 1 diabetic, just to mention. I think the mechanisms and therefore the answers to these question might be sensibly different compared to type 2.

Thank you very much in advance for any opinion

Hi
I am on a keto diet, less than 20g carbs/day. My biggest problem however is not the carbs, but protein - I find that if I eat more than my allowance (55g/day), my ketones plummet. This is a big problem because, once I am out of ketosis. it takes about 4 days to recover, during which time the excess fat I am eating isn't being turned into energy, but stored as fat. Read up on gluconeogenesis for an explanation.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Perhaps you should both read this interesting article

http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html

 

[miszu]

I dont know much about this diet, but just mentioning this, when I started taking more protein I felt extremely ill and now Im just very sensitive to it. I came off most proteins then and I feel better now. Maybe it doesnt fit everyone. Personally I need my 100g carbs a day to feel good. Extras when I work out more, I just feel like I need the energy. I dont eat bad carbs tho I keep a strict diet but just need the minimum 100g to feel okay. I dont know in what way but hope my comment ll help somebody. Have a good day everyone !

 

[dbr10]

Perhaps you should both read this interesting article

http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html

Thanks for posting.

 

[Kristin251]

Hi
I am on a keto diet, less than 20g carbs/day. My biggest problem however is not the carbs, but protein - I find that if I eat more than my allowance (55g/day), my ketones plummet. This is a big problem because, once I am out of ketosis. it takes about 4 days to recover, during which time the excess fat I am eating isn't being turned into energy, but stored as fat. Read up on gluconeogenesis for an explanation.

Perfect explanation. I don't test ketones but I know when I'm out of ketosis as bg goes up a tad
I keep my animal protein around 40 and spread it out into bf, lunch split itnto two, an ounce of cheese and dinner. Usually 1.5-2 oz for lunch and dinner. One at bf. And of course cheese.

 

[azure]

I dont know much about this diet, but just mentioning this, when I started taking more protein I felt extremely ill and now Im just very sensitive to it. I came off most proteins then and I feel better now. Maybe it doesnt fit everyone. Personally I need my 100g carbs a day to feel good. Extras when I work out more, I just feel like I need the energy. I dont eat bad carbs tho I keep a strict diet but just need the minimum 100g to feel okay. I dont know in what way but hope my comment ll help somebody. Have a good day everyone !

I completely agree. There's no magic diet for Type 1 and we all need to find a level of carbs that suits us.

@Eldra Keto is something I avoid not just because of the IR but because it's far more of a nuisance bolusing for protein's delayed rise, and taking into account the effect of the fat.

 

[Eldra]

Perhaps you should both read this interesting article

http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html

**** that's a big article, full of big words hahaha.
I know some of it as I have done physiology during my BSc, but there are lots of details that are completely unknown to me. Thank you for sharing indeed

I completely agree. There's no magic diet for Type 1 and we all need to find a level of carbs that suits us.

@Eldra Keto is something I avoid not just because of the IR but because it's far more of a nuisance bolusing for protein's delayed rise, and taking into account the effect of the fat.

That's interesting. Indeed, I feel it is a strange thing to reduce carb intake to virtually zero just to worry about another thing (proteins) instead. Especially if it is as complicated as it sounds!

To be honest I am interested in that diet because Dr Bernstein claims it has the potential of reducing your BS and HbA1c to non-diabetic levels (although he has some dubious claims here and there). So far I have a hard time believing this is achievable even with moderate carb intake? I am currently battling with moderate carb diet to reduce my HbA1c to 6.5% (48) and yet this is a difficult work. I assume many have been able to reduce it to even under this, yet I still wonder if 6.5% can take one off the prospect of complications after 30 or 40 years?

 

[azure]

@Eldra You can get a very good HbA1C with reasonable carbs. It just takes work - as does Dr Bernstein's method. People assume it's the food he eats, but he uses three different insulins and has a huge focus on his control.

Sadly, there's no easy answer or short-cut. But there are lots of tips like advance bolusing, etc

 

[Eldra]

@Eldra You can get a very good HbA1C with reasonable carbs. It just takes work - as does Dr Bernstein's method. People assume it's the food he eats, but he uses three different insulins and has a huge focus on his control.

Sadly, there's no easy answer or short-cut. But there are lots of tips like advance bolusing, etc

Thank you, this gives me a very new perspective to see things, and it does quite make sense. I did start using advance bolusing, with great results! Also I like to eat the meat and vegs before the carby food, and this really helps killing those nasty spikes.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Also I like to eat the meat and vegs before the carby food, and this really helps killing those nasty spikes.

That is great advice even for non-insulin users. I try to do it myself.

 

[Kristin251]

That is great advice even for non-insulin users. I try to it myself.

Me too and avocado before everything

 

[Bluetit1802]

Me too and avocado before everything

But of course!

 

[Eldra]

Never tried avocado, but everybody keeps mentioning it!