Hunger Pangs

[azure]

I don't know what I could try.

Are you saying that my lunch, as described, wouldn't have satisfied? I count almost 60g fat! :O

It wouldn't satisfy me. It might satisfy other people

You could maybe try a green salad with your chicken and butter, or a hot low carb soup - or both.

See how that goes and add a suitable snack if you're still hungry before the next meal.

Taking the time to,chew properly and to,eat slowly can also help alleviate hunger. Sounds daft but it does make a difference. Just one thing that might help

 

[ghost_whistler]

I did have spinach and cabbage with it.

 

[AndBreathe]

@ghost_whistler , you seem to be really focusing on the macro-nutrients, then worrying about things. Could you try, say a week, of eating until you are satisfied, without doing the calculations? By all means record all you eat, but don't do the calculations as you go. Eat to your appetite, thenat the end of the week (or whatever, but not on the day), update your records to apply the metrics if you feel bound to.

Personally, I know in your shoes, I would be constantly asking myself if I felt hungry, rather than getting on with my day, fuelling along the way.

What fills your days? Are you busy? Do you go to work, work from home or have quite a bit of time on your hands? When I'm busy, I rarely feel hungry until I stop, or almost stop, then I could be anything from ready to eat to utterly ravenous.

 

[ghost_whistler]

@ghost_whistler , you seem to be really focusing on the macro-nutrients, then worrying about things. Could you try, say a week, of eating until you are satisfied, without doing the calculations? By all means record all you eat, but don't do the calculations as you go. Eat to your appetite, thenat the end of the week (or whatever, but not on the day), update your records to apply the metrics if you feel bound to.

Personally, I know in your shoes, I would be constantly asking myself if I felt hungry, rather than getting on with my day, fuelling along the way.

What fills your days? Are you busy? Do you go to work, work from home or have quite a bit of time on your hands? When I'm busy, I rarely feel hungry until I stop, or almost stop, then I could be anything from ready to eat to utterly ravenous.

I could try that, but I struggle to figure out what to eat to feel satisfied before I cook it, if that makes sense. Sure i can ignore the numbers, but figuring out what to actually add to feel full and make sure i'm getting enough fat to make this work is the issue.

I had a larger breakfast today: 150g pork belly slices, 50g bacon slice, fried in 25g butter, 50g avocado, and 25g kale. That's nearly 60g fat! Now since then i've had some weird symptoms. I get weird hunger pangs that feel really heavy where i can really feel my heart beat and my breath almost become heavier when i inhale (similar to when you're stuffed!). It's hard to explain. I checked my BS and it was 5.0 so nothing there. It could be hypotension.

I think i'm going to have to get an early appointment tomorrow with the GP. Unfortunately doing so will not help with keto and will likley advise me back onto carbs. It would be great if there was a specialist I could see that understood this woe and could point to what these issues were. I have no idea if they are common issues and unfortunately there are a lot of forums discussing this with contradictory info. For example, some people advise that fat macros have an upper and lower limit and that you don't need to eat maximum. Others say that you shoudl pile the fat on like it's going out of fashion - which is difficult, as I seem to be discovering. Others still just say it's part of the adaption process, but that seems like a cop out and potentially a dangerous one.

So i've no idea. I think first I will try eating what I did when I first came to this, but then is that enough fat to properly adapt? That is what i want and again there's contradictory info: some people claim you must eat max fat to adapt before introducing a deficit, others say differently. These communities do themselves no favours.

I don't have a job and have some mental health issues. I'm sure these don't help, but that's a whole other discussion. That said, while stress etc do affect health, I really don't think that's what this is.

 

[Chook]

I think you are doing too much counting of everything at this early stage.

I'm not sure whether you have been diagnosed yet? When I first started on a VLCHF way of eating my BG was incredibly high and I just counted carbs and nothing else. I ate as much of non-carb foods as I felt I wanted or needed and also had carb free snacks if I got the munchies. I must have eaten a huge number of calories but I knew the important thing was cutting carbs right down -and it really worked. Once I got my BG in good shape I hopped on the scales and found I'd lost weight despite eating all those calories.

What I'm trying to say is if you cut carbs AND count calories then it really will make life unnecessarily horrible for you and you could become too obsessed with the fine details rather than getting used to the first most important step. If necessary you can fine tune your way of eating in a few months.

The really important thing is to eat enough low carb foods until you are happy and comfortable. If you feel hungry then eat more. Pork scratchings are good, as are nuts, salami spread with cream cheese, cheese, a crustless quiche that you have a bit of every now and then. You really shouldn't be weighing and counting EVERYTHING you eat - just the carbs.

 

[AndBreathe]

I could try that, but I struggle to figure out what to eat to feel satisfied before I cook it, if that makes sense. Sure i can ignore the numbers, but figuring out what to actually add to feel full and make sure i'm getting enough fat to make this work is the issue.

I had a larger breakfast today: 150g pork belly slices, 50g bacon slice, fried in 25g butter, 50g avocado, and 25g kale. That's nearly 60g fat! Now since then i've had some weird symptoms. I get weird hunger pangs that feel really heavy where i can really feel my heart beat and my breath almost become heavier when i inhale (similar to when you're stuffed!). It's hard to explain. I checked my BS and it was 5.0 so nothing there. It could be hypotension.

I think i'm going to have to get an early appointment tomorrow with the GP. Unfortunately doing so will not help with keto and will likley advise me back onto carbs. It would be great if there was a specialist I could see that understood this woe and could point to what these issues were. I have no idea if they are common issues and unfortunately there are a lot of forums discussing this with contradictory info. For example, some people advise that fat macros have an upper and lower limit and that you don't need to eat maximum. Others say that you shoudl pile the fat on like it's going out of fashion - which is difficult, as I seem to be discovering. Others still just say it's part of the adaption process, but that seems like a cop out and potentially a dangerous one.

So i've no idea. I think first I will try eating what I did when I first came to this, but then is that enough fat to properly adapt? That is what i want and again there's contradictory info: some people claim you must eat max fat to adapt before introducing a deficit, others say differently. These communities do themselves no favours.

I don't have a job and have some mental health issues. I'm sure these don't help, but that's a whole other discussion. That said, while stress etc do affect health, I really don't think that's what this is.

Do you think you might have too much time to think about all this, and therefore questioning every single twinge or feeling and really focusing on it?

As I've said before, in the early days when I was picking my way through all of this, I did better when I was busy.

 

[ghost_whistler]

Do you think you might have too much time to think about all this, and therefore questioning every single twinge or feeling and really focusing on it?

As I've said before, in the early days when I was picking my way through all of this, I did better when I was busy.

It's possible, but these experiences arne't just weird twinges. they are quite severe

 

[Chook]

Try eating more if you think it's because you aren't eating enough.

 

[AndBreathe]

It's possible, but these experiences arne't just weird twinges. they are quite severe

Please don't think I'm saying you don't feel hungry.

 

[ghost_whistler]

Please don't think I'm saying you don't feel hungry.

well its 6am and i've just booked a GP appointment online. My sleep is punctuated by crippling hunger pangs. So bad that i just had to get some food to snack on. Took a BS reading and it was 5.8. This was higher than previous readings while eating LCHF, don't know if that's relevant. It's a perfectly normal reading. This is really disheartening because a) she's going to tell me to 'eat properly' for sure, and b) i don't know what else i can do. I didn't get like this even before i started. I think about once a year was this an issue. Something isn't right here and I can't take chances. This can't be hypotensioni either. All i'd eaten prior to bed was a slice of cheese between dinner and sleep. I managed to push through some relatively mild hunger cravings between dinner and bed. I thought i was doing better.

 

[azure]

It's possible, but these experiences arne't just weird twinges. they are quite severe

Do look at the Anxiety information again. Symptoms caused by anxiety are real physical symptoms.

I also agree with Andbreathe that it's possible that you're looking inward too much and noticing symptoms that are just normal body responses, and then fixating on them.

 

[azure]

well its 6am and i've just booked a GP appointment online. My sleep is punctuated by crippling hunger pangs. So bad that i just had to get some food to snack on. Took a BS reading and it was 5.8. This was higher than previous readings while eating LCHF, don't know if that's relevant. It's a perfectly normal reading. This is really disheartening because a) she's going to tell me to 'eat properly' for sure, and b) i don't know what else i can do. I didn't get like this even before i started. I think about once a year was this an issue. Something isn't right here and I can't take chances. This can't be hypotensioni either. All i'd eaten prior to bed was a slice of cheese between dinner and sleep. I managed to push through some relatively mild hunger cravings between dinner and bed. I thought i was doing better.

No, your BS is not relevant - it's normal.

And perhaps 'eating properly' is a good idea? You've been given lots of advice here yet don't seem to have taken comments on board and are obsessing about trivialities.

Speak to your GP - both about your physical symptoms and about the way you're thinking about things and your anxiety.

 

[ghost_whistler]

Do look at the Anxiety information again. Symptoms caused by anxiety are real physical symptoms.

I also agree with Andbreathe that it's possible that you're looking inward too much and noticing symptoms that are just normal body responses, and then fixating on them.

I understand that anxiety can provoke physical symptoms, but there's two problems with that:
1. I am not convinced that a nights sleep like i've had, with such immense cravings, can be induced psychologically. Even eating carbs i never felt like this.
2. Mental health support, thanks to this government, doesn't exist.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just not entirely sure what to do and whether that's a satisfactory explanation. I need to know it's not something else, possibly hormonal or whatever - perhaps i'm allergic to high fat foods or something?

 

[ghost_whistler]

No, your BS is not relevant - it's normal.

And perhaps 'eating properly' is a good idea? You've been given lots of advice here yet don't seem to have taken comments on board and are obsessing about trivialities.

Speak to your GP - both about your physical symptoms and about the way you're thinking about things and your anxiety.

I'm sorry if I've given you a different impression, but I take everything that people suggest on board. I welcome, and have explicitly said so, everyone's input, as I would hope they take mine. All I have done is express my desire to try and stick with this way of eating, and I cannot understand why, now five weeks in, when at first this wasn't an issue, I'm now saddled with crippling hunger. I can assure you, it doesn't feel trivial to me.

 

[Chook]

The whole reason people say you don't feel hungry on a low carb diet is because you can eat as much as you like of non or very low carb food - so there is absolutely no good reason to feel hungry.

I have been low carbing for two years now and I rarely get very hungry because If I feel a bit hungry I eat something - if you feel hungry you should eat something.

As for crippling hunger.. why are you letting your hunger get that far. It's so easily dealt with - just eat something when you get a bit hungry.

I'm REALLY not understanding your problem - to me it's something you are bringing on yourself and then complaining about it.

 

[azure]

I understand that anxiety can provoke physical symptoms, but there's two problems with that:
1. I am not convinced that a nights sleep like i've had, with such immense cravings, can be induced psychologically. Even eating carbs i never felt like this.
2. Mental health support, thanks to this government, doesn't exist.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just not entirely sure what to do and whether that's a satisfactory explanation. I need to know it's not something else, possibly hormonal or whatever - perhaps i'm allergic to high fat foods or something?

Ok, well to address your points in detail there:

1) Many people get hungry at night. I was so hungry the other night that my stomach was almost hurting with hunger. However, that didn't make me think I had a medical issue - I just thought I was hungry. If I had had a recent change of diet and had then found the hunger was worse, do you know what I'd do? Simply change back to my original diet or to a different diet than the one giving me worse symptoms of hunger. It genuinely is that simple.
Could there be a medical reason? Possibly, which is why when we initially starting conversing I suggested tests to rule things out in a logical fashion. But you seem to have decided, with no evidence, that it was some form of hypoglycaemia. That could well have sent you down the wrong road. So stop. Revise your 'journey' and choose another path.

2) I aappreciate mental health support isn't as good as it could be. Don't think I underestimate that or the problems it can cause. All I can suggest is to keep pushing. I don't know what help you've had (and obviously you don't need to say because that's private) but push. Go back to your GP, explicitly state you're having mental health issues and need some help, and see if you can get a referral to a psychologist or psychiatrist, as appropriate. If you've already seen one of those, then ask about help in the community from nurses. Remember too, there are various charities and help groups that can support you and give you advice. I know it must be hard having to push for help when you have mental health issues, and I do sympathise with the lack of services.

A final point - getting out and about and with people can help a lot. Evening classes, clubs, walking groups, sports clubs, book clubs, conservation work, other volunteering - there's a lot out there. There are also concessions for the unemployed, and many activities are free. It sounds trite but all those things can help, especially in directing your focus outwards rather than inwards.

 

[ghost_whistler]

999

The whole reason people say you don't feel hungry on a low carb diet is because you can eat as much as you like of non or very low carb food - so there is absolutely no good reason to feel hungry.

I have been low carbing for two years now and I rarely get very hungry because If I feel a bit hungry I eat something - if you feel hungry you should eat something.

As for crippling hunger.. why are you letting your hunger get that far. It's so easily dealt with - just eat something when you get a bit hungry.

I'm REALLY not understanding your problem - to me it's something you are bringing on yourself and then complaining about it.

Well in a way I have brought it on myself, since I've made the choice to eat this way.

Why am I letting hunger get that far? I don't usually. I try and eat something, but the symptoms seem to persist. Now it's possible I'm not eating enough fat, but like I said yesterday I ate 60g fat for breakfast. Why is that not enough? Why was i hungry during the morning? I've just had a 65g lunch, that's on top of a 30g fat breakfast. So that's 90g out of a macro (if macros mean anything) of 140g. Perhaps that's not enough? I not I don't know what is.

However when you're in bed waking up with really intense cravings you can't ignore (and i didn't), then it's not quite ccurate to say I'm letting anything get that far. I didin't retire hungry.

 

[ghost_whistler]

99

Ok, well to address your points in detail there:

1) Many people get hungry at night. I was so hungry the other night that my stomach was almost hurting with hunger. However, that didn't make me think I had a medical issue - I just thought I was hungry. If I had had a recent change of diet and had then found the hunger was worse, do you know what I'd do? Simply change back to my original diet or to a different diet than the one giving me worse symptoms of hunger. It genuinely is that simple.
Could there be a medical reason? Possibly, which is why when we initially starting conversing I suggested tests to rule things out in a logical fashion. But you seem to have decided, with no evidence, that it was some form of hypoglycaemia. That could well have sent you down the wrong road. So stop. Revise your 'journey' and choose another path.

2) I aappreciate mental health support isn't as good as it could be. Don't think I underestimate that or the problems it can cause. All I can suggest is to keep pushing. I don't know what help you've had (and obviously you don't need to say because that's private) but push. Go back to your GP, explicitly state you're having mental health issues and need some help, and see if you can get a referral to a psychologist or psychiatrist, as appropriate. If you've already seen one of those, then ask about help in the community from nurses. Remember too, there are various charities and help groups that can support you and give you advice. I know it must be hard having to push for help when you have mental health issues, and I do sympathise with the lack of services.

A final point - getting out and about and with people can help a lot. Evening classes, clubs, walking groups, sports clubs, book clubs, conservation work, other volunteering - there's a lot out there. There are also concessions for the unemployed, and many activities are free. It sounds trite but all those things can help, especially in directing your focus outwards rather than inwards.

1. It isn't that simple. This is a low carb diet and you can't just switch back because it will erase all the progress made toward adapting the body, if nothing else. You can't just hop back and forth. I'm sure people will understand this as this is after all a low carb discussion forum. I want to make it work, i don't want to just give up.

The doctor had nothing to offer. She doesn't understand how this diet works, by her own admission. She couldn't do anything on the basis of someone feeling hungry. She said that either I would adapt to the diet, if thats possible, or I would have to give up. I am not keen on just giving up. I want to explore what is going on before making that, final, decision. And it is final for the reasons I just stated.

2. I'm not saying you underestimate anything, but you need to understand that when I say there is no support. I mean there is no support. This is a nationwide crisis, and it is a crisis. Services are cut, support is not available, nor where it needs to be. You can go to your GP and ask all you like, most of them don't understand mental health anymore than diet. But they cannot magic services out of thin air. At best services exist on the basis of crisis: if you are a danger to yourself or others then there may be intervention. If not, you won't get a referral to anything unless you're really lucky. It really is that bad in Britain right now.

 

[Kristin251]

It is my opinion that you are eating too much!!!! The more I eat the hungrier I get, especially if my meals aren't balanced properly. The idea isn't to eat as much fat as you can. The idea is to simply replace the carb calories with fat calories which is very easy. A salad with a half can of tuna, egg salad, chicken chunks etc and drizzled with olive oil is roughly 80% fat, 15% protein and 5% carbs.

Too much of ANY food can take you out of ketosis. If weight loss is desired you need to eat less calories in order to allow your body to burn your own fat. Even if weight loss isn't desired, there is no 'free' food with diabetes. You need to eat sensible portions. I would be stuffed to uncomfortable and still hungry. As someone on another thread the difference between full and satisfied is about a half of a plate. Try eating smaller portions maybe a little more often. I use an appetizer plate and it's never full. This 3 times a day a few nuts in between as snacks. Sometimes hunger can be satisfied with just a bite or two of something.

Could you eat as you used to but just push the carbs off? Those are some pretty calorie rich meals. Are you having trouble digestiong them? As in feeling heavy in the gut? There's a huge difference between full and satisfied. Satisfied is far more satisfying. Full can tend to make people hungry and cravy.
Again, I say try much smaller meals.
An egg or two with mayo and celery bf
Salad with protein and olive oil, avocado and / or a few nuts for lunch
Dinner a piece of protein and some steamed veg and small salad. with a reasonable amount of oil or butter.
It doesn't need to be so complicated. I understand in the beginning trying to get it right and I went through all this too. Needed up with an appetizer plate and just skipping the carbs. It naturally comes out around 80/20/10 ish

 

[azure]

99

1. It isn't that simple. This is a low carb diet and you can't just switch back because it will erase all the progress made toward adapting the body, if nothing else. You can't just hop back and forth. I'm sure people will understand this as this is after all a low carb discussion forum. I want to make it work, i don't want to just give up.

The doctor had nothing to offer. She doesn't understand how this diet works, by her own admission. She couldn't do anything on the basis of someone feeling hungry. She said that either I would adapt to the diet, if thats possible, or I would have to give up. I am not keen on just giving up. I want to explore what is going on before making that, final, decision. And it is final for the reasons I just stated.

2. I'm not saying you underestimate anything, but you need to understand that when I say there is no support. I mean there is no support. This is a nationwide crisis, and it is a crisis. Services are cut, support is not available, nor where it needs to be. You can go to your GP and ask all you like, most of them don't understand mental health anymore than diet. But they cannot magic services out of thin air. At best services exist on the basis of crisis: if you are a danger to yourself or others then there may be intervention. If not, you won't get a referral to anything unless you're really lucky. It really is that bad in Britain right now.

First of all, I'm sorry you're not getting the help you need with your mental health issues. All I can repeat is to see if charities can advise you or supoort you. Even some understanding or the opportunity to vent may be beneficial. I wish you the best with that

Regarding your diet, to me it seems like you're being rigidly stubborn in your thinking. If you try something and it doesn't work, then you move on. What you say about 'undoing the progress' is incomphensible to me. What progress? Extreme feelings of hunger?? This is my opinion but I firmly believed you're expecting far too much from keto. Yes, there are non-diabetic people obsessing about it left, right and centre on the Internet, yes there are shelves of books and crowds of gurus trumpeting it, but that doesn't mean it's some kind of magic bullet that will cure all ills and make your life perfect.

Now that probably sounds harsh. I don't mean it to be though. My opinion is you've settled on Keto as a panacea and a crutch.

Eat what you want, of course, but do so in a happy way. Obsessing about grams of fat, meal sizes, nuts, etc, etc, etc, isn't healthy. Eat what you choose without counting (avoiding carbs if you want to) and find something else to,focus your energy on. I would also repeat my advice to search out things to do so that you don't dwell on stuff so much. You, like everyone else, only have so much mental energy. Save it for things that are more worthwhile.

Yes, this is the low carb section but of a diabetes support forum. People have spent a great deal of time trying to help you.