Improving sleep

[62Rose]

Hi there.

I'm not sure if anyone can help me. I have been struggling with sugar fluctuations for nearly 4 years, I'm 55 next week. My endocrinologist said that I am not clinically RH but should follow the advice given as if I were. Despite eating at least 6 small meals a day, steering clear of sugar etc etc I am still struggling at night. I wake up at least 2/3 times sweating and sometimes with my stomach churning. I used to eat which would then give me a couple of hours more sleep but I try not to as I'm not sure that really helps. I only very occasionally sleep right through and I just can't work out why.

I did a 3 day fast in the hospital which was horrific and I spent most of it sweating, with a severe headache and was nauseous on the last day but at least I know I won't die. It made we wonder if when I produce cortisol, my body reacts to the sugar it finds from my organs as it can't get it from food if I haven't eaten any since 10 the night before. The hours between 4-6 are often the worse. At times not knowing how best to help myself is so frustrating that I am beginning to lose hope of ever feeling well again. I tried a no carb diet for a couple of weeks a few years ago and that didn't stop the sweating and I just woke up hungry in the night. I am noticing weight gain around my middle and struggling with joint issues too. It feels like a vicious circle. I am also diary intolerant and have fibromyalgia, apart from that I'm normal haha.

Anyone understand?

 

[Brunneria]

Yes, I understand. Although I have to say I haven't experienced years of disturbed sleep.
I do/did often have sweaty disturbed wake ups, maybe one or two a night, which disappeared when I went really low carb.
But at my age I was never quite sure whether they were blood glucose or menopausal, and I still don't know. I haven't officially hit the bit M yet, but the disturbed sleep now happens only when my eating hasn't been... um... 'ideal'

What advice have you been given with diet? Was it carbs every 2-3 hours?

 

[62Rose]

Thank you so much for replying. Yes and I was told where poss 1/3 each low GI carbs, protein and leafy greens/veg which I do for 3 meals but the snack in between might be 2 oatcakes and peanut butter, wholemeal seeded toast and nut butters, Eat Natural Protein bar so no veg with those as I can't face eating greens with them !

 

[Lamont D]

Hi there.

I'm not sure if anyone can help me. I have been struggling with sugar fluctuations for nearly 4 years, I'm 55 next week. My endocrinologist said that I am not clinically RH but should follow the advice given as if I were. Despite eating at least 6 small meals a day, steering clear of sugar etc etc I am still struggling at night. I wake up at least 2/3 times sweating and sometimes with my stomach churning. I used to eat which would then give me a couple of hours more sleep but I try not to as I'm not sure that really helps. I only very occasionally sleep right through and I just can't work out why.

I did a 3 day fast in the hospital which was horrific and I spent most of it sweating, with a severe headache and was nauseous on the last day but at least I know I won't die. It made we wonder if when I produce cortisol, my body reacts to the sugar it finds from my organs as it can't get it from food if I haven't eaten any since 10 the night before. The hours between 4-6 are often the worse. At times not knowing how best to help myself is so frustrating that I am beginning to lose hope of ever feeling well again. I tried a no carb diet for a couple of weeks a few years ago and that didn't stop the sweating and I just woke up hungry in the night. I am noticing weight gain around my middle and struggling with joint issues too. It feels like a vicious circle. I am also diary intolerant and have fibromyalgia, apart from that I'm normal haha.

Anyone understand?

I agree with @Brunneria, it could be menopausal. And agree with the very low carb approach.
I had terrible sleep issues, I had insomnia and the vivid colourful dreams. Had to get up and was only getting a few hours which affected my day time energy and increased the dreadful symptoms.

If you have advice about the three hours feeding that may give you too much insulin because of the healthy carbs the medical establishment insist we RH ers need. But I've found that we don't not as long as we don't eat very few carbs. I eat when I want, fast when I want, and as long as I don't eat carbs, my blood glucose levels stay around normal levels, where we need to be.
Fluctuating blood glucose is not good.
I have an intolerance to dairy.
My hospital fasting test was horrendous as well but for different reasons.
But I do know how you feel!

Welcome to our forum.
If you have questions ask.

You may not have RH, but one thing we all agree on is it is food particularly carbs and sugars that effect us and we can live without them.

I always say, it is like a peanut allergy. You wouldn't eat peanuts!
If you have an intolerance to carbs, why eat them?

 

[62Rose]

Thank you Lamont D. I think I must be different though as I can't go without food. My symptoms come on, headache, cold hands, brain fog, stomach churning, in fact I wake up like that every day without fail. I eat some toast with peanut butter and an hour or so later another slice with egg and spinach and the symptoms stop. As long as I don't leave it more than 2-3 hours to eat through the day I am fine, but it's the night time that I can't sort out. Amazingly last night I did sleep well, I had a small balanced meal at 6 , one oatcake and some coconut milk around 8 and went to bed at 10.30. I woke at 6 feeling rough as usual but I try not to eat before 7. It is good to know other people understand what it's like, I feel so isolated, my friends and family try to understand but they don't really.

 

[Lamont D]

Thank you Lamont D. I think I must be different though as I can't go without food. My symptoms come on, headache, cold hands, brain fog, stomach churning, in fact I wake up like that every day without fail. I eat some toast with peanut butter and an hour or so later another slice with egg and spinach and the symptoms stop. As long as I don't leave it more than 2-3 hours to eat through the day I am fine, but it's the night time that I can't sort out. Amazingly last night I did sleep well, I had a small balanced meal at 6 , one oatcake and some coconut milk around 8 and went to bed at 10.30. I woke at 6 feeling rough as usual but I try not to eat before 7. It is good to know other people understand what it's like, I feel so isolated, my friends and family try to understand but they don't really.

Trying to get people and especially family to understand what this is like is really difficult.
'You can't eat bread?' I was asked today as I ate my dinner of gammon and salad.
'Why?'
Because it would put me into a coma, I exaggerate a little!

They shake their head, they don't believe you and change the subject.

The problem with eating every three hours is you eat far too much and it doesn't always work. It all depends on how high you go, the hyper. The raise in blood glucose levels can give you the symptoms as well as the fall from it! Never mind if you do hypo! The fluctuations in your bloods gives you as many symptoms as do the hypos.
You can't win.
I have found this out, by not eating even low GI carbs, I stay in normal range of blood glucose levels. That is where your body is happy.
If you eat very small meals, very low carb, every three hours would be better and your symptoms should dissipate gradually.
But as you say, we are different and we tolerate different foods differently.
I would raise your saturated fat more, and lower your carbs, with a look at portion size and a little more walking. You have not mentioned what exercise you do, as that will have an effect on your bloods.

I think when you wake, your body is craving carbs, hence the symptoms.
Once you get over the craving, you will feel better.

I would also go into a lot of testing, finding out what foods actually do to your bloods and this will give you an idea of what foods are those that don't raise your bloods a lot. Being in normal levels is so much better and because of this, yes, we are different and weird, and we have to control the condition and the effects of the symptoms.

My final thoughts on this is, you must stop being in that crazy cycle of eating to stop the hypos, when stopping the hypers is so much better for your health and your well-being and of course your mental welfare, as the cycle continues, the likelihood of symptoms th a will make you worse such as symptoms of anxiety and depression.
The symptom of brain fug, forgetfulness and shaking is your brain telling you to eat, to get your bloods up or even down, to produce more insulin than you need.
It is insulin in excess that is giving you the symptoms.
Too much of most hormones is bad for all of us, it just happens to be insulin that causes RH! Or the symptoms of RH!

Best wishes.

 

[62Rose]

Thank you Lamont D. I think I must be different though as I can't go without food. My symptoms come on, headache, cold hands, brain fog, stomach churning, in fact I wake up like that every day without fail. I eat some toast with peanut butter and an hour or so later another slice with egg and spinach and the symptoms stop. As long as I don't leave it more than 2-3 hours to eat through the day I am fine, but it's the night time that I can't sort out. Amazingly last night I did sleep well, I had a small balanced meal at 6 , one oatcake and some coconut milk around 8 and went to bed at 10.30. I woke at 6 feeling rough as usual but I try not to eat before 7. It is good to know other people understand what it's like, I feel so isolated, my friends and family try to understand but they don't really.

Trying to get people and especially family to understand what this is like is really difficult.
'You can't eat bread?' I was asked today as I ate my dinner of gammon and salad.
'Why?'
Because it would put me into a coma, I exaggerate a little!

They shake their head, they don't believe you and change the subject.

The problem with eating every three hours is you eat far too much and it doesn't always work. It all depends on how high you go, the hyper. The raise in blood glucose levels can give you the symptoms as well as the fall from it! Never mind if you do hypo! The fluctuations in your bloods gives you as many symptoms as do the hypos.
You can't win.
I have found this out, by not eating even low GI carbs, I stay in normal range of blood glucose levels. That is where your body is happy.
If you eat very small meals, very low carb, every three hours would be better and your symptoms should dissipate gradually.
But as you say, we are different and we tolerate different foods differently.
I would raise your saturated fat more, and lower your carbs, with a look at portion size and a little more walking. You have not mentioned what exercise you do, as that will have an effect on your bloods.

I think when you wake, your body is craving carbs, hence the symptoms.
Once you get over the craving, you will feel better.

I would also go into a lot of testing, finding out what foods actually do to your bloods and this will give you an idea of what foods are those that don't raise your bloods a lot. Being in normal levels is so much better and because of this, yes, we are different and weird, and we have to control the condition and the effects of the symptoms.

My final thoughts on this is, you must stop being in that crazy cycle of eating to stop the hypos, when stopping the hypers is so much better for your health and your well-being and of course your mental welfare, as the cycle continues, the likelihood of symptoms th a will make you worse such as symptoms of anxiety and depression.
The symptom of brain fug, forgetfulness and shaking is your brain telling you to eat, to get your bloods up or even down, to produce more insulin than you need.
It is insulin in excess that is giving you the symptoms.
Too much of most hormones is bad for all of us, it just happens to be insulin that causes RH! Or the symptoms of RH!

Best wishes.

I think I understand what you are saying and it appears to make sense. I was thinking the same thing and will attempt some testing at the weekend. Today I ate a tuna and avocado salad for lunch at 1pm and left out my normal slice of bread. i ate carrot sticks when I was hungry by 3pm with the cold hands and fuzzy head getting worse as the afternoon went on. I understand there isn't a quick fix and am willing to try to go carb free again to see if I've changed. How long is it likely to be before my body doesn't crave carbs though? Last time I remember having really bad nights when I tried and can't say I feel up to that right now.

 

[kokhongw]

I did a 3 day fast in the hospital which was horrific and I spent most of it sweating, with a severe headache and was nauseous on the last day but at least I know I won't die.

What did they share about your insulin/glucose response after the 3 day fast?

Usually a 3 day fast would be highly therapeutic. Because it lowers glucose/insulin and raise ketones.

You may want to consider researching about virgin coconut oil and try taking a couple of spoonful before going to bed...it helped to keep my brain happy during the start of my multi-day fast. But it sounds like you may need it more regularly.

 

[Brunneria]

I agree with @Lamont D

I spent a long time bouncing backwards and forwards, feeling high and low, barely even noticing the bits in the middle when i felt OK.

Eventually i twigged that it was a cycle that started with carbs (i was lucky enough to find a book on hypoing) and started cutting them down. It took a long time (years) because i really hated giving up certain foods. I really fought against being forced into a low carb corner. Still do sometimes.

I got steadily better the lower carb I got. Now i am usually under 20g carbs a day, in the form of above ground veg, with maybe a few berries. And some dark choc. Lots of awesome, delicious low carb foods. I can function ok on up to 50g carbs a day for a short time, and I can tolerate some root veg, but all grains and gluten send my blood glucose haywire.

I have to admit, the amount of carbs you mention eating would make me feel very ill in the long run.

 

[62Rose]

He said I didn't have a rumour on my pancreas, I went down to 2.9 but not any lower which meant I wasn't clinically in trouble . Spent most of the time around 3 to 4. I think I had. Ketones in my urine on the lsat day but I don't know the readings.
The next couple of days I was really ill, my stomach was all over the place and he even had me back in for stool tests and more blood tests? I'm sorry I don't have the understanding of what he was looking for. When I did the fasting glucose load test I was.2 away from the magical clinical number so that's why I'm not clinically RH.

 

[Lamont D]

There is a condition called idiopathic postprandrial syndrome.
It has all the symptoms of RH without the hypos.
There is a condition called flat curve response RH!
There is a condition called dumping syndrome!
There is a lot of hormonal conditions that have the same symptoms as RH!
You mentioned cortisol, there is thyroid conditions.

All depend on how and what you eat, to gain better control and have a healthier future.
Most endocrine conditions respond better to a very low carb higher fats diet.

By limiting the insulin response, the body becomes healthier.
By limiting your carbohydrate intake, you become healthier.

Increasing your saturated fats your body responds to food better.
Increasing your exercise a little bit more every day, helps your hormonal problems.

The thing about a low carb diet is it really works, nothing else logically does!
But in the end you have to find the right balance low carb for you!

I prefer to be in total control and stay in normal blood glucose levels range permanently as much as is humanly possible. Because my experience tells me, and my body and brain tells me, if I don't, I will be ill, I don't want that again. So I don't!

Three years of low carb and my energy levels are really good.
No hypos, fitter and healthier, and I mean really healthy!
I wouldn't wish anything about what you are going through at this time.
The more you find out about how your body reacts to food, the more you understand how it all comes together, and you learn to avoid, what is making you ill!

If you do have one of these weirdo conditions or symptoms, then the answer is not a normal diet or a diet that has carbs in for fibre or any of the excuses the doctors use.
Especially the eat well plate that is recommended by the NHS for type two's.
In a majority of patients, it doesn't work. Why? Because it it is adding to the imbalance in hormonal response to a meal.
What I trying to say is, we aren't normal, so the treatment is totally dietary, and unusual just for us. As by mine and others who have responded well to this approach with their own twist, is the best way to treat and control the condition and symptoms.

Short post as usual!

Best wishes.

 

[kokhongw]

, I went down to 2.9 but not any lower which meant I wasn't clinically in trouble . Spent most of the time around 3 to 4. I think I had. Ketones in my urine on the lsat day but I don't know the readings.

While not clinically in trouble...many do experience symptoms of hypoglycemia below 4 mmol. ie sweating, heart palpitation, brain fog etc. Unfortunately they did not seems to share your insulin level, though they cleared your pancreas for presence of tumor.

My non-clinical layman's view/hypothesis is simply that for some of us, our brain has impaired glucose uptake. It has difficulty functioning at lower glucose level, which others may consider to tbe normal.

So the alternatives to consider are
1) Keep glucose at a higher normal
2) Provide the brain with alternative fuel, ie ketone bodies. A low carb higer fats ketogenic like diet. Or simply as suggested, try out some virgin coconut oil or MCT oil. Some tolerate MCT oil better than virgin coconut oil. That is why bulletproof coffee is popular for mental clarity.

Some studies have show that with MCT, test subjects can safely maintain mental recognition down to 2.8 mmol.
Medium-Chain Fatty Acids Improve Cognitive Function in Intensively Treated Type 1 Diabetic Patients and Support In Vitro Synaptic Transmission During Acute Hypoglycemia
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/58/5/1237

Dr Peter Attia mention this in his blog
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-i

The graph below, also from the Cahill and Veech paper, shows the blood chemistry of a person starving for 40 days. Within about 3 days, a starving person’s level of glucose stops falling. Within about 10 days they reach a steady-state equilibrium with B-OHB levels exceeding glucose levels and offsetting most of the brain’s need for glucose.

In fact, the late George Cahill did an experiment many years ago (probably would never get IRB approval to do such an experiment today) to demonstrate how ketones can offset glucose in the brain. Subjects with very high levels of B-OHB (about 5-7 mM) were injected with insulin until glucose levels reached 1 mM (about 19 mg/dL)! A normal person would fall into a coma at glucose levels below about 40 mg/dL and die by the time blood glucose reached 1 mM. These subjects were completely asymptomatic and 100% neurologically functional.

A seperate study show that
Ketone infusion lowers hormonal responses to hypoglycaemia: evidence for acute cerebral utilization of a non-glucose fuel.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1653662?access_num=1653662&link_type=MED&dopt=Abstract

 

[Brunneria]

Hi All,

Just a quick note to say that some posts have been moved from this thread to a new one, to avoid derailing this one too much.

The new thread is called
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/does-rh-lead-to-t2.121273/

 

[62Rose]

Thank you for your help everyone. I feel like the mist is gradually clearing already. Still a lot of work to do and things to understand.
Seems silly but what is "normal range" for blood glucose levels please? I thought it was 4 - 6. After my first meal this morning I went from 5.7 to 7.3 after 30 mins and 7.8 after an hour, two hours later I went back to 6.4.
And also somewhere else in another thread I read the term "dawn phenomenon, please would someone explain that? Thank you.

 

[Lamont D]

Thank you for your help everyone. I feel like the mist is gradually clearing already. Still a lot of work to do and things to understand.
Seems silly but what is "normal range" for blood glucose levels please? I thought it was 4 - 6. After my first meal this morning I went from 5.7 to 7.3 after 30 mins and 7.8 after an hour, two hours later I went back to 6.4.
And also somewhere else in another thread I read the term "dawn phenomenon, please would someone explain that? Thank you.

Normal range is between 3.8 and 6.0mmols. But, there are those that can be in normal range a little lower or a little higher.
It is only when you go lower than 3, would I consider it a hypo. And we need to avoid the spikes if at all possible.
Dawn phenomenon is your liver giving you a liver dump as you wake, a surge of glucose to get you ready for the day. Fill in the search button with dawn phenomenon and there are quite a number of threads devoted to this.
You can discover wether you have it from your morning fasting level.
Knowledge is so important as is testing and recording everything if you haven't already, you need to keep a food diary. So you can see trends as you discover which foods are baddies. One monitor test is usually not enough to give you the results you need.

Glad you are feeling more comfortable.
The only silly question is the one not asked!

Best wishes.

 

[azure]

Thank you for your help everyone. I feel like the mist is gradually clearing already. Still a lot of work to do and things to understand.
Seems silly but what is "normal range" for blood glucose levels please? I thought it was 4 - 6. After my first meal this morning I went from 5.7 to 7.3 after 30 mins and 7.8 after an hour, two hours later I went back to 6.4.
And also somewhere else in another thread I read the term "dawn phenomenon, please would someone explain that? Thank you.

@62Rose If you ate and went from 5.7 back to 6.4 after two hours with your highest spike 7.8 then that's pretty normal. I used to test my friends' blood sugars after they'd eaten and I saw results like that often. None of them have diabetes (or RH) That's why the diagnosis level for diabetes is 11.1. People generally stay below that but can go up to 10ish occasionally after a large carby meal.

Normal blood sugar ranges
For the majority of healthy individuals, normal blood sugar levels are as follows:

• Between 4.0 to 6.0 mmol/L (72 to 108 mg/dL) when fasting
• Up to 7.8 mmol/L (140 mg/dL) 2 hours after eating

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes_care/blood-sugar-level-ranges.html

.

 

[azure]

@62Rose Here's some info about Dawn Phenomenon. It's usually spoken of in relation to diabetes as it can mess with control:

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/blood-glucose/dawn-phenomenon.html

.

 

[62Rose]

Thank you for your reply. However I'm not more comfortable yet! This afternoon hasn't been good trying to cut down on a few carbs at each meal but my heads aching now I'm fuzzy and hungry within two hours and according to the monitor I'm fine at 6.2 and just about to eat my 6.00 meal of salmon, greens and 17g of sweet potatoes as I would normally. I know I can get better if I learn to understand what's going on and find my happy place.

 

[Lamont D]

You have only just started on your journey.
Try and take it easy and feel your way through it all.
It is a marathon not a sprint!
This is for life and you need to get your head around it all.
No panic at all now, slowly does it, it took me quite a while to find all this out.
I have had to battle my way through this for over fifteen years.
You have to learn how to live your life differently than what is known as normal.
Normal is not us!
The symptoms won't help, and there will be ups and downs, as long as you get your balance right, you do and can have good health in the future!

 

[Brunneria]

When you reduce your carbs, are you increasing your non-root veg, protein and fats to compensate? Often just adding a dab of butter to veg, or a sprinkle of cheese will be enough. Doing that will prevent the hunger. It is all about finding the right balance, but being hungry on low carb just means you need to do more tweaking.