In emergency WHAT?
- Thread starter Ragnar
- Start Date
Ragnar.
First of all a fit and a coma are two entirely different things. When a person is fitting they are usually thrashing around in some way. The priority is to stop them injuring themselves by guiding, but not restraining them and ensuring they don't swallow their tongue.
A Coma however is when someone has lapsed into unconciousness and would normally be lying motionless. In that scenario then the priority is to ensure they are breathing and get them into the recovery position, ensuring the airway is not blocked.
In both cases you should summon immediate Medical assistance, an Ambulance.
There are many posts on the Forum which deal with Hypoglycaemia and Hyperglycaemia. They give much information as to how to deal with both types of events. In both instances you would need a blood glucose meter to determine which was happening with certainty. Not something that many people routinely carry around unless you are a Diabetic.
As to a what to do if.......we don't have such a thing here as we just answer questions when asked and offer our advice from experience as a Diabetic. More useful for those that want to know what to do in Medical Emergencies, not specifically coma or a fit the British Red Cross website has some good Video guides and tips for First Aiders. See here:
http://www.redcross.org.uk/standard.asp?id=56899
As an ex Police Officer I know from my own experience that finding somebody in the state you describe warrants an immediate call for an Ambulance whilst carrying out the above First Aid techniques. We never carried any items of equipment other than bandages, plasters and dressings. No meters and suchlike. In any case we were not medically trained other than in basic First Aid. Sufficient to keep people alive and assist in childbirth !
No Police Officer would be able to determine what exactly was wrong with someone so might well assume they were dealing with a drunk, however the Ambulance crew would arrive and usually quickly determine what the problem was and if needed get the Patient off to Hospital. Obviously, we expected the Ambulance Crew to know what to look for. Not something the Police would get involved in.
So the advice to look here is proabaly better directed to the appropriate Red Cross or equivalent website in your own country to educate themselves on the basic First Aid skills.
Hope that helps......
Ken
First of all a fit and a coma are two entirely different things. When a person is fitting they are usually thrashing around in some way. The priority is to stop them injuring themselves by guiding, but not restraining them and ensuring they don't swallow their tongue.
A Coma however is when someone has lapsed into unconciousness and would normally be lying motionless. In that scenario then the priority is to ensure they are breathing and get them into the recovery position, ensuring the airway is not blocked.
In both cases you should summon immediate Medical assistance, an Ambulance.
There are many posts on the Forum which deal with Hypoglycaemia and Hyperglycaemia. They give much information as to how to deal with both types of events. In both instances you would need a blood glucose meter to determine which was happening with certainty. Not something that many people routinely carry around unless you are a Diabetic.
As to a what to do if.......we don't have such a thing here as we just answer questions when asked and offer our advice from experience as a Diabetic. More useful for those that want to know what to do in Medical Emergencies, not specifically coma or a fit the British Red Cross website has some good Video guides and tips for First Aiders. See here:
http://www.redcross.org.uk/standard.asp?id=56899
As an ex Police Officer I know from my own experience that finding somebody in the state you describe warrants an immediate call for an Ambulance whilst carrying out the above First Aid techniques. We never carried any items of equipment other than bandages, plasters and dressings. No meters and suchlike. In any case we were not medically trained other than in basic First Aid. Sufficient to keep people alive and assist in childbirth !
No Police Officer would be able to determine what exactly was wrong with someone so might well assume they were dealing with a drunk, however the Ambulance crew would arrive and usually quickly determine what the problem was and if needed get the Patient off to Hospital. Obviously, we expected the Ambulance Crew to know what to look for. Not something the Police would get involved in.
So the advice to look here is proabaly better directed to the appropriate Red Cross or equivalent website in your own country to educate themselves on the basic First Aid skills.
Hope that helps......
Ken
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Learning basic first aid is a good idea for anyone. As Ken says, when people have a fit you make them safe and comfortable, if someone is concious but breathing ie in a coma all you should do is make sure they are safe and their airway is free. (check out Ken's link) .
More critical is what to do if someone has stopped breathing. Its really important that as many ordinary people know how to do CPR (and take refresher courses every now and then) and also learn how to use a defibrillator.
I don't know about Germany but here in France these lifesaving pieces of equipment are becoming available in prominent positions in more and more remote villages . They have also been placed in several places in towns.(shopping centres, town halls, sports centres). The UK also has a expanding network of them. These pieces of equipment can save lives but only if enough people can do CPR to maintain blood flow to the brain whilst the equipment is fetched . The machines themselves are very easy to use by anyone and tell you exactly what to do but it is better if people have had some training and and the confidence to use them when they are available.
info about defibrillators and their locations in the UK
http://www.aedlocator.org/
More critical is what to do if someone has stopped breathing. Its really important that as many ordinary people know how to do CPR (and take refresher courses every now and then) and also learn how to use a defibrillator.
I don't know about Germany but here in France these lifesaving pieces of equipment are becoming available in prominent positions in more and more remote villages . They have also been placed in several places in towns.(shopping centres, town halls, sports centres). The UK also has a expanding network of them. These pieces of equipment can save lives but only if enough people can do CPR to maintain blood flow to the brain whilst the equipment is fetched . The machines themselves are very easy to use by anyone and tell you exactly what to do but it is better if people have had some training and and the confidence to use them when they are available.
info about defibrillators and their locations in the UK
http://www.aedlocator.org/
phoenix
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The machine monitors the heartbeat , tells the operator what to do and only shocks if appropriate.
A quote from the website linked above
I think human nature conditions how we respond to people who might be drunk or have taken drugs, particularly if they are strangers. Only a few weeks ago OH and I helped a young girl who may have been hypo, but she certainly wasn't in a condition to take any oral glucose, or she may have taken a drug overdose or something entirely different. We just made her safe, checked for airways and bleeding, put her into the recovery position and got someone to phone 999. There were many people 'walking by on the other side', not wanting to get involved and some making comments about 'junkies'. Most people don't want, or fear to get involved.
Professionals should know better, whether more mistakes through ignorance are being made I don't know. One recent incident that comes to mind was when someone having a hypo was treated as a drunk by a paramedic. This was disgraceful but I find it significant and reassuring that it was his colleagues who reported him and his response was shown to be totally contrary to correct procedures.
While an epileptic fit and a hypoglycaemic coma are completely different things, a hypoglycaemic episode can show as a fit / thrashing about / general unco-operativeness.
I trained as a first aider in my teens, nurse in my 20s and joined Territorial Army as a Nursing Officer in late 20s, but could not rejoin when I left to emigrate, then got type 1 diabetes,
A few years ago, travelling on a train between Birmingham and Newcastle upon Tyne, from my seat, I saw some activity in the corridor leading from the dining car - a woman was trying to pour orange juice down into the mouth of a man having a fit, probably confusing epileptic fit and hypoglycaemia. Putting liquid into the mouth of someone who is not fully conscious is dangerous; putting gel into the mouth of a person who is not fully conscious is OK. But, putting anything into the mouth of someone having an epileptic fit is not safe, risking damage to teeth, tongue & mouth of person having the fit and fingers of the person putting them into the mouth. On the train, I stopped the fluid that might have choked him, placed a jacket under his face so it wouldn't get scratched on the doormat, alerted train staff, and man was taken off train by paramedics called to the next station. I also looked for any ID jewellery or card in wallet, that might explain his condition, but there was nothing.
I trained as a first aider in my teens, nurse in my 20s and joined Territorial Army as a Nursing Officer in late 20s, but could not rejoin when I left to emigrate, then got type 1 diabetes,
A few years ago, travelling on a train between Birmingham and Newcastle upon Tyne, from my seat, I saw some activity in the corridor leading from the dining car - a woman was trying to pour orange juice down into the mouth of a man having a fit, probably confusing epileptic fit and hypoglycaemia. Putting liquid into the mouth of someone who is not fully conscious is dangerous; putting gel into the mouth of a person who is not fully conscious is OK. But, putting anything into the mouth of someone having an epileptic fit is not safe, risking damage to teeth, tongue & mouth of person having the fit and fingers of the person putting them into the mouth. On the train, I stopped the fluid that might have choked him, placed a jacket under his face so it wouldn't get scratched on the doormat, alerted train staff, and man was taken off train by paramedics called to the next station. I also looked for any ID jewellery or card in wallet, that might explain his condition, but there was nothing.
phoenix said:
I assume this was in France phoenix?
I can't speak for the SAMU (French hospital ambulance service) but can confirm that the pompiers, who are usually the first on scene for medical emergencies, are required to take blood pressure, heart rate and blood glucose levels for every unconcious patient, or anyone showing signs of hypo or hyper glycemia. All ambulances in France carry the equipment needed.
Ragnar.
It's good that some of us who were trained as First Adiers know what to do.........personally I think it should be on all School's curriculum so that everybody gets the basic advice and knows what to do in an Emergency situation.
However, as has been found sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. There are/were instances where well itenetioned First Aider's have done harm to Patients by using incorrect methods.
I would prefer to leave it to the Professional's even though, as you say some of their skill sometimes leave a lot to be desired.
I have given First Aid many time to seriously injured Patients but was always concious to do the minimum possible to assist until the Paramedic's turn up as I am no expert.
A.....airway.
B.....breathing
C.....circulation
Was what we were taught....still valid now I think.
Ken
It's good that some of us who were trained as First Adiers know what to do.........personally I think it should be on all School's curriculum so that everybody gets the basic advice and knows what to do in an Emergency situation.
However, as has been found sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. There are/were instances where well itenetioned First Aider's have done harm to Patients by using incorrect methods.
I would prefer to leave it to the Professional's even though, as you say some of their skill sometimes leave a lot to be desired.
I have given First Aid many time to seriously injured Patients but was always concious to do the minimum possible to assist until the Paramedic's turn up as I am no expert.
A.....airway.
B.....breathing
C.....circulation
Was what we were taught....still valid now I think.
Ken
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Going a bit off topic here but its certainly possible, and does happen.This is the course the children in my last school used to do at eleven.
http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/training-courses/courses-for-young-people/young-first-aider.aspx
They also used to take part in an event (google says it's still going) called Junior Citizen organised by the Met police with input from a variety of services (ambulance, fire, railways etc). The children take part in various safety scenarios from how to cope in a fire, to internet safety. There was usually section where they walked round a corner and came across someone who had fallen from a ladder or some other accident and had to respond. (always a brilliant, memorable day and the children gained a great deal from the day)
French Kitty, that incident was in the UK, not France.
http://www.hpc-uk.org/complaints/hearings/index.asp?id=1042
I too was in the ATC........as you say a great place, shooting, gliding, air experience etc. Good times.
There are still ATC and other organisations going strong, my Son was in one and they are a good grounding for youngsters to learn some discipline as well as life skills. Mind you, I think my lad was a bit of an exception to that...... :roll:
I'm beginning to sound like a 'grumpy old man' now ! :lol:
Ken
There are still ATC and other organisations going strong, my Son was in one and they are a good grounding for youngsters to learn some discipline as well as life skills. Mind you, I think my lad was a bit of an exception to that...... :roll:
I'm beginning to sound like a 'grumpy old man' now ! :lol:
Ken
I was also in the ATC.
The cadets did First Aid for the Duke of Edinburgh's award scheme, many of them gaining bronze and silver and some used their training to good effect on a night training exercise where a cadet broke his leg.
The cadets did First Aid for the Duke of Edinburgh's award scheme, many of them gaining bronze and silver and some used their training to good effect on a night training exercise where a cadet broke his leg.
As a teenager in West Midlands in 1980s, I attended a bog standard comprehensive, where we had several non O level / CSE courses, including first aid (mainly CPR - cardio pulmonary rescuscitation), traffic education, rational thinking etc. I was also a Guide, then Ranger in Ranger Venture Unit, plus Sea Ranger, plus did my D of E bronze & gold Awards, which inlcuded standard Red Cross first aid course and RLSS life saving bronze medallion & award of merit. Our mum used to like shocking other parents by saying she didn't care about our O levels, but did insist both my sister & I did first aid and life saving. Actually, she'd been teaching us first aid since we were children, and sometimes used us as models eg for teaching youth leaders how to put slings on smaller children. She also knew she didn't have to worry about our O levels - mys sister ended up studying law at Cambridge and I did nursing, marine biology and ended up with MSc from Imperial College. Both of us have had several times when our first aid skills have saved lives or reduced harm, and I'm not counting times when I've been working as a nurse.
My sister's daughters are just approaching teenage, and I'm sure we'll encourage them to do first aid and life saving courses. I'd urge all parents / aunts / uncles to ensure that their children do the same.
My sister's daughters are just approaching teenage, and I'm sure we'll encourage them to do first aid and life saving courses. I'd urge all parents / aunts / uncles to ensure that their children do the same.
I agree totally with Ken, first aid should be taught in schools (maybe not primary school). It could and would save lives. Though I dread to think what elf and safety risk assessments would have to be done first!!
