AnI was accused of being negative on one of those threads, incorrectly in my opinion. I am not personally against the ND and when people doing it and keeping a diary on the forum, I congratulate them on their success to date and try to support. Just as I do with anyone else reporting a success, no matter which diet they follow. I just don't think we have been given enough information on the full results of this exercise.
I still can't get my head round the criteria the ND team set for defining remission. (A 15kg weight loss and HbA1c of under 48 with no medication for the last 2 months, maintained for 12 months after the start.) This is what is upsetting me because I can't see how on earth anyone can be in remission if their HbA1c is in the 40's. We don't know (or at least I don't know) what the HbA1c of these successful people was at the end of the period. It could have been 47 and they would still be classed as in remission. That to me is daft. I really hope I'm wrong and that all the 46% had HbA1cs in the 30s. I would also like some data on the remaining 56% and reasons why they didn't manage it.
If someone has this data I would like to see it.
I think you should re-read my post. I did not mention low carb once. I was talking exclusively about ND style severe calorie restriction diets (which have been around in shake form since at least the early 80s, because that is when i started using them.
basically you asked for people's personal experiences on long term very low calorie diets, and when I give one (which happens to be based on decades of experience by myself, backed up with a link to Fung who has some excellent refences on the subject) you suddenly start asking for long term studies about low carb.
Not going to play that game.
You asked for feedback.
You got it.
You are not receptive to it.
Fair enough (and funnily enough, i mentioned exactly that attitude in my post.)
I think you should re-read my post. I did not mention low carb once. I was talking exclusively about ND style severe calorie restriction diets (which have been around in shake form since at least the early 80s, because that is when i started using them.
basically you asked for people's personal experiences on long term very low calorie diets, and when I give one (which happens to be based on decades of experience by myself, backed up with a link to Fung who has some excellent refences on the subject) you suddenly start asking for long term studies about low carb.
Not going to play that game.
You asked for feedback.
You got it.
You are not receptive to it.
Fair enough (and funnily enough, i mentioned exactly that attitude in my post.)
An
You are right.
Can I make a complete and underserved apology. I have allowed my frustration at the negativity from yesterday spill into negativity into a thread that I hoped would be more positive and seem to have made it negative myself! I am suitably disappointed with myself.
I am truly sorry.
You didn't mention LC and you did give real world experience.
I stopped reading Fungs blog afterI think you should re-read my post. I did not mention low carb once. I was talking exclusively about ND style severe calorie restriction diets (which have been around in shake form since at least the early 80s, because that is when i started using them.
basically you asked for people's personal experiences on long term very low calorie diets, and when I give one (which happens to be based on decades of experience by myself, backed up with a link to Fung who has some excellent refences on the subject) you suddenly start asking for long term studies about low carb.
Not going to play that game.
You asked for feedback.
You got it.
You are not receptive to it.
Fair enough (and funnily enough, i mentioned exactly that attitude in my post.)
not everything Ancel keys uncovered is necessarily wrong.he referred to Ansel Keys as the person who discovered that vl cal diet cause the body to go into starvation mode -
Or necessarily right - when it comes to manipulating data, its a case of “once tainted always questionable” or more bluntly “once a liar, always a liar” in my eyesnot everything Ancel keys uncovered is necessarily wrong.
You and me too but I would never say “ x is bad for you, its leaves you feeling ....” when all I can legitimately say is “ x was bad for me, it left me feeling.....”ive been on diets for 40 years ive tried all the meal replacement ones they leave you hungry and feeling low when you fail. ive dieted on sub 500 cals for months going dizzy whilst walking,ive done versions of atkins a few times and lchd twice. of them all ive lasted longest on the lchd ones.
ive lost probably a ton of fat over the years.and it all comes back on because your body becomes used to lower energy inputs.
so pardon me if i doubt a meal replacement shake with a very low cal count will work. yes your right mine and others experiences are not scientific proof but our experiences are valid proof that extreme low calorie diets are bad for you. but to think your body wont react to the precieved famine situation is a serious error.
An
You are right.
Can I make a complete and underserved apology. I have allowed my frustration at the negativity from yesterday spill into negativity into a thread that I hoped would be more positive and seem to have made it negative myself! I am suitably disappointed with myself.
I am truly sorry.
You didn't mention LC and you did give real world experience.
I suppose the choice people make with any diatery approach to diabetes, be it VLC, Nd, or whatever is do they trust their gut instinct and try it now or do they wait several years for a full peer reviewed, long term data to be amassed
Your second paragraph sums up exactly how I feel about the message being given by the press about the Newcastle Diet. Sloppy journalism, quick 'soundbites' and that subliminal message: 'it's your fault because you can't stop stuffing yourself'. It's not the ND, it's the perception of it by the general public, fostered by said journalism (although I hesitate to give it that name). This of course is not the fault of Prof Taylor and others connected with the regime.Spot on Brunneria.Whilst the Newcastle approach is obviously valid it does not work for all. I could not eat all that potato the ex T2D on the Tele was eating.
Any way they would not have me on the diet I am outside their age parameter.
My argument wouldn't be with the diet but the garbled way it was presented by the press and the way that they thought only obese people had T2D! Which is clearly not true, as is the case some/many obese people don't have T2D.
Derek
I agree. My approach to most things in life is that its better to do something rather than nothing,even if the first phase of doing something is a time limited bit of researchBUT there is a time limit isn't there. People who have had T2 for 10 years or more aren't going to go into remission because too much damage has been done. As most people don't know how long they've been T2 then the sooner they start to do something the better.. Maybe.........
Why oh why do we have to constantly have this LC - VLCD war? It is beginning to wear me down.
I think if there is a war ( and it certainly feels like it at times) one of the sides is not the general low carb camp but the very low carb / ketogenic one.I didn't think there was a war. By definition the VLCD is going to be LC, I'm not sure that you can get under 800 calories if you have too many carbs.
If we consider my 4 years of low carb, < 40gms per day, loads of veg, some meat, little cheese and yoghurt and my progression to ND (similar) which I did by removing sources of protein, so basically no meat, or dairy. The weight loss had occured when I initially went low carb and then stalled until I tried the VLCD.
I just see them as different tools to manage my BG, I have no preference although VLCD is achieving better weight loss and BG control. That's just me, everyone else will have different experiences.
Speaking of diet breakthroughs, I thought a little perspective might be in order.What set my teeth on edge was not the fact that the ND has succeeded for some people but a couple of small things such as the phrase 'Breakthrough'. What part of a calorie restricted diet, even those using shakes to achieve weight loss is a breakthrough?
And the comment by Isabel that '... and if I can do it anyone can do it'. Obviously not as half the people did not 'do it'.
I am in favour of ND as an approach to weight loss and to lower blood glucose but how that transitions to a more normalised diet in the long term is still imo yet to be seen. Whatever one's approach one should be given full support but if opinions are requested or advice sought then it is up to the individual to decide which path to follow.
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