In the news.

Fleegle

Well-Known Member
Messages
775
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Diet only
I was accused of being negative on one of those threads, incorrectly in my opinion. I am not personally against the ND and when people doing it and keeping a diary on the forum, I congratulate them on their success to date and try to support. Just as I do with anyone else reporting a success, no matter which diet they follow. I just don't think we have been given enough information on the full results of this exercise.

I still can't get my head round the criteria the ND team set for defining remission. (A 15kg weight loss and HbA1c of under 48 with no medication for the last 2 months, maintained for 12 months after the start.) This is what is upsetting me because I can't see how on earth anyone can be in remission if their HbA1c is in the 40's. We don't know (or at least I don't know) what the HbA1c of these successful people was at the end of the period. It could have been 47 and they would still be classed as in remission. That to me is daft. I really hope I'm wrong and that all the 46% had HbA1cs in the 30s. I would also like some data on the remaining 56% and reasons why they didn't manage it.
If someone has this data I would like to see it.
An
I think you should re-read my post. I did not mention low carb once. I was talking exclusively about ND style severe calorie restriction diets (which have been around in shake form since at least the early 80s, because that is when i started using them.

basically you asked for people's personal experiences on long term very low calorie diets, and when I give one (which happens to be based on decades of experience by myself, backed up with a link to Fung who has some excellent refences on the subject) you suddenly start asking for long term studies about low carb.

Not going to play that game.
You asked for feedback.
You got it.
You are not receptive to it.
Fair enough (and funnily enough, i mentioned exactly that attitude in my post.)

You are right.
Can I make a complete and underserved apology. I have allowed my frustration at the negativity from yesterday spill into negativity into a thread that I hoped would be more positive and seem to have made it negative myself! I am suitably disappointed with myself.

I am truly sorry.
You didn't mention LC and you did give real world experience.
 
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lindisfel

Expert
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5,659
Spot on Brunneria.Whilst the Newcastle approach is obviously valid it does not work for all. I could not eat all that potato the ex T2D on the Tele was eating.
Any way they would not have me on the diet I am outside their age parameter.

My argument wouldn't be with the diet but the garbled way it was presented by the press and the way that they thought only obese people had T2D! Which is clearly not true, as is the case some/many obese people don't have T2D.

Derek

I think you should re-read my post. I did not mention low carb once. I was talking exclusively about ND style severe calorie restriction diets (which have been around in shake form since at least the early 80s, because that is when i started using them.

basically you asked for people's personal experiences on long term very low calorie diets, and when I give one (which happens to be based on decades of experience by myself, backed up with a link to Fung who has some excellent refences on the subject) you suddenly start asking for long term studies about low carb.

Not going to play that game.
You asked for feedback.
You got it.
You are not receptive to it.
Fair enough (and funnily enough, i mentioned exactly that attitude in my post.)
 
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Brunneria

Guru
Retired Moderator
Messages
21,889
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
An


You are right.
Can I make a complete and underserved apology. I have allowed my frustration at the negativity from yesterday spill into negativity into a thread that I hoped would be more positive and seem to have made it negative myself! I am suitably disappointed with myself.

I am truly sorry.
You didn't mention LC and you did give real world experience.

No worries @Fleegle!
Have a hug
 
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Boo1979

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,849
Type of diabetes
Other
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Tablets (oral)
I think you should re-read my post. I did not mention low carb once. I was talking exclusively about ND style severe calorie restriction diets (which have been around in shake form since at least the early 80s, because that is when i started using them.

basically you asked for people's personal experiences on long term very low calorie diets, and when I give one (which happens to be based on decades of experience by myself, backed up with a link to Fung who has some excellent refences on the subject) you suddenly start asking for long term studies about low carb.

Not going to play that game.
You asked for feedback.
You got it.
You are not receptive to it.
Fair enough (and funnily enough, i mentioned exactly that attitude in my post.)
I stopped reading Fungs blog after
1) he quoted Halls 14 person study as suppourting his position but then said he didnt agree with the conclusions without saying why. The biggest loser programme is also v different than ND
2) he referred to Ansel Keys as the person who discovered that vl cal diet cause the body to go into starvation mode - we all know how little respect Ansel Keys’ other scientific “findings” are held in
 

paulus1

Well-Known Member
Messages
843
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
ive been on diets for 40 years ive tried all the meal replacement ones they leave you hungry and feeling low when you fail. ive dieted on sub 500 cals for months going dizzy whilst walking,ive done versions of atkins a few times and lchd twice. of them all ive lasted longest on the lchd ones.
ive lost probably a ton of fat over the years.and it all comes back on because your body becomes used to lower energy inputs.

so pardon me if i doubt a meal replacement shake with a very low cal count will work. yes your right mine and others experiences are not scientific proof but our experiences are valid proof that extreme low calorie diets are bad for you. but to think your body wont react to the precieved famine situation is a serious error.

[Edited by moderator for language.]
 
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lucylocket61

Expert
Messages
6,435
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Diet only
My FIL was a farmer, one of many in his family. The cattle and sheep etc who could put on weight easily were called 'good do-ers' and were prized. In evolutionary terms, those of us who are 'good do-ers' are the ones who survive sickness and famine. unfortunately, these days, that ability to hang on to our fat stores, and put weight on easily is a liability when it comes to modern food : (

moooo!!!!
 
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Boo1979

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Messages
1,849
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Other
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Tablets (oral)
not everything Ancel keys uncovered is necessarily wrong.
Or necessarily right - when it comes to manipulating data, its a case of “once tainted always questionable” or more bluntly “once a liar, always a liar” in my eyes
 
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Boo1979

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Messages
1,849
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Other
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ive been on diets for 40 years ive tried all the meal replacement ones they leave you hungry and feeling low when you fail. ive dieted on sub 500 cals for months going dizzy whilst walking,ive done versions of atkins a few times and lchd twice. of them all ive lasted longest on the lchd ones.
ive lost probably a ton of fat over the years.and it all comes back on because your body becomes used to lower energy inputs.

so pardon me if i doubt a meal replacement shake with a very low cal count will work. yes your right mine and others experiences are not scientific proof but our experiences are valid proof that extreme low calorie diets are bad for you. but to think your body wont react to the precieved famine situation is a serious error.
You and me too but I would never say “ x is bad for you, its leaves you feeling ....” when all I can legitimately say is “ x was bad for me, it left me feeling.....”

[Quote edited by moderator for language.]
 
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hankjam

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,270
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
It's probably a matter of experience.
I was diagnosed T2, was able to control my BG and lose weight with LC. I noticed ND and I would say the idea scared the living c**p out of me, just too extreme for me. So I settled for and was happy with LC.

Do I comment on LC? Yes.
Do I comment on ND. No.
Am I alone? Probably not.


Edited by mod for language
It's a fair edit, thanks @Brunneria
 
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OrsonKartt

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,173
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Tablets (oral)
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over selling.... oh so many things are enthusiastically oversold
I did Newcastle diet. At the time it was the only thing I could find which meant I had some control. A few weeks in I found this site so after the diet I went low carb. Trouble is most people don't have time / energy / enthusiasm to do the research They are left with our sometimes smiling health proffesionals who dish out whatever information is approved by the nhs. On the whole the attitude is get ill and we will try to fix you up. I'd sooner have someone trying to help me help myself. I don't think that's too much to ask for
 

Bluetit1802

Legend
Messages
25,216
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
An


You are right.
Can I make a complete and underserved apology. I have allowed my frustration at the negativity from yesterday spill into negativity into a thread that I hoped would be more positive and seem to have made it negative myself! I am suitably disappointed with myself.

I am truly sorry.
You didn't mention LC and you did give real world experience.

No need for apologies or to be disappointed with yourself @Fleegle you didn't do anything wrong. Have some more hugs.
 

woodywhippet61

Well-Known Member
Messages
489
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I suppose the choice people make with any diatery approach to diabetes, be it VLC, Nd, or whatever is do they trust their gut instinct and try it now or do they wait several years for a full peer reviewed, long term data to be amassed

BUT there is a time limit isn't there. People who have had T2 for 10 years or more aren't going to go into remission because too much damage has been done. As most people don't know how long they've been T2 then the sooner they start to do something the better.. Maybe.........
 

Sue192

Well-Known Member
Messages
594
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Spot on Brunneria.Whilst the Newcastle approach is obviously valid it does not work for all. I could not eat all that potato the ex T2D on the Tele was eating.
Any way they would not have me on the diet I am outside their age parameter.

My argument wouldn't be with the diet but the garbled way it was presented by the press and the way that they thought only obese people had T2D! Which is clearly not true, as is the case some/many obese people don't have T2D.

Derek
Your second paragraph sums up exactly how I feel about the message being given by the press about the Newcastle Diet. Sloppy journalism, quick 'soundbites' and that subliminal message: 'it's your fault because you can't stop stuffing yourself'. It's not the ND, it's the perception of it by the general public, fostered by said journalism (although I hesitate to give it that name). This of course is not the fault of Prof Taylor and others connected with the regime.

I am so pleased to read of people's success on this forum, by whichever means it takes and which suits them, so a big well done and a hug to @Fleegle. I do have misgivings about post-ND: years ago I did a VLCD with a friend - she lost a ton of weight (I lost just under a couple of stone, which suited me) but she struggled a great deal after she had got to goal weight because the support was not there and she became very depressed and the weight piled back on. It also completely mucked up her metabolism - I can relate to what @Brunneria said about this. I realise that this was a very different situation from the use of the Newcastle Diet, but I would like to know if there is post-diet support for those who have been successful or not on ND, as it seems to me a vital part of the process.
 
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johnpol

Well-Known Member
Messages
919
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
I thought the news reporting yesterday was a good piece of we have tried this and found it works with these people. I don't subscribe to any of the diets now. I have tried most over the years, from Bodybuilding ones to LC, to severely restricting calories, lost a lot of weight and put a lot back on. But the thing I have learned from my experience is that the body loves stability, and can and will adjust its metabolic rates to suit. Start a diet lose nearly half a stone in the first week (bodies way of saying go back to what you were doing), not based in scientific fact just being around a lot of people who have dieted and failed/succeeded in their goals, but what I will do all the time is celebrate peoples success in weight control/loss as they have worked bloody hard for it. If weight loss was easy everyone would do it.
been a bodybuilder (used to say cut me nose off to spite me face, with the amount of bland food) to a competitive strength athlete (term used Loosely) who ate anything not nailed down (enjoyed every mouthful) but like I say I don't/wont subscribe to any type of diet because what works for one wont necessarily work for another (hence the figures of 48% success in the report).

Just my two penneth worth.
Good luck every one
 

Boo1979

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Messages
1,849
Type of diabetes
Other
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Tablets (oral)
BUT there is a time limit isn't there. People who have had T2 for 10 years or more aren't going to go into remission because too much damage has been done. As most people don't know how long they've been T2 then the sooner they start to do something the better.. Maybe.........
I agree. My approach to most things in life is that its better to do something rather than nothing,even if the first phase of doing something is a time limited bit of research
 
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DavidGrahamJones

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3,263
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Other
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Newspapers
Why oh why do we have to constantly have this LC - VLCD war? It is beginning to wear me down.

I didn't think there was a war. By definition the VLCD is going to be LC, I'm not sure that you can get under 800 calories if you have too many carbs.

If we consider my 4 years of low carb, < 40gms per day, loads of veg, some meat, little cheese and yoghurt and my progression to ND (similar) which I did by removing sources of protein, so basically no meat, or dairy. The weight loss had occured when I initially went low carb and then stalled until I tried the VLCD.

I just see them as different tools to manage my BG, I have no preference although VLCD is achieving better weight loss and BG control. That's just me, everyone else will have different experiences.

Sorry, typed at midday ish, forgot to click on Send until 16:30.
 

Boo1979

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,849
Type of diabetes
Other
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I didn't think there was a war. By definition the VLCD is going to be LC, I'm not sure that you can get under 800 calories if you have too many carbs.

If we consider my 4 years of low carb, < 40gms per day, loads of veg, some meat, little cheese and yoghurt and my progression to ND (similar) which I did by removing sources of protein, so basically no meat, or dairy. The weight loss had occured when I initially went low carb and then stalled until I tried the VLCD.

I just see them as different tools to manage my BG, I have no preference although VLCD is achieving better weight loss and BG control. That's just me, everyone else will have different experiences.
I think if there is a war ( and it certainly feels like it at times) one of the sides is not the general low carb camp but the very low carb / ketogenic one.
 
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Guzzler

Master
Messages
10,577
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Diet only
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Poor grammar, bullying and drunks.
What set my teeth on edge was not the fact that the ND has succeeded for some people but a couple of small things such as the phrase 'Breakthrough'. What part of a calorie restricted diet, even those using shakes to achieve weight loss is a breakthrough?
And the comment by Isabel that '... and if I can do it anyone can do it'. Obviously not as half the people did not 'do it'.

I am in favour of ND as an approach to weight loss and to lower blood glucose but how that transitions to a more normalised diet in the long term is still imo yet to be seen. Whatever one's approach one should be given full support but if opinions are requested or advice sought then it is up to the individual to decide which path to follow.
 

Chuckannuck

Active Member
Messages
32
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
What set my teeth on edge was not the fact that the ND has succeeded for some people but a couple of small things such as the phrase 'Breakthrough'. What part of a calorie restricted diet, even those using shakes to achieve weight loss is a breakthrough?
And the comment by Isabel that '... and if I can do it anyone can do it'. Obviously not as half the people did not 'do it'.

I am in favour of ND as an approach to weight loss and to lower blood glucose but how that transitions to a more normalised diet in the long term is still imo yet to be seen. Whatever one's approach one should be given full support but if opinions are requested or advice sought then it is up to the individual to decide which path to follow.
Speaking of diet breakthroughs, I thought a little perspective might be in order.

Lord Byron popularized the vinegar and water diet in 1820. If that doesn't qualify as low cal I don't know what does.

I've seen a low carb diet book for diabetics which I believe dated from the late 1800's or very early 1900's.

So, are these things really 'breakthroughs' or is it that everything's a surprise when we have short memories and aren't paying attention?
 
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