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Insulin troubleshooting: Need suggestions pls

Yes, certainly it could be the food you eat at lunch. Worth a try, for sure :)

I mentioned basal because I always found that the most unpredictable, both in its absorption and in how it matches the needs of one's body. Now I'm on a pump, I can see how much my basal needs vary throughout the day and night.

Keeping diabetic control is a bit of an art sometimes. Do what you need to do to get good control and if it works for you that's all that matters :)
 
Hi. Am I being thick as I don't understand you original post. You mention the ratios you use and hence the number of shots for 30 gm of carbs but you didn't eat 30 gm but a lot more from the banana etc? Are you injecting for the carbs you actually eat or a notional 30gm which has no meaning?
 
Hi. Am I being thick as I don't understand you original post. You mention the ratios you use and hence the number of shots for 30 gm of carbs but you didn't eat 30 gm but a lot more from the banana etc? Are you injecting for the carbs you actually eat or a notional 30gm which has no meaning?

Hello and thank you for your comment.
I am using the "Carbs & Cals" app for carbohydrate counting.
According to this app, 85 grams banana without skin account for 20 grams of carbohydrates (or 2 carbohydrate portions in DAFNE wording). 1 digestive biscuit is 9.7 grams of carbohydrates. I round all together to 30 grams of carbohydrates or 3 carbohydrate portions.
I do not consider protein or vegetables when I bolus (for the time being).

Same principle applies for the rest of the cases mentioned with regards to carbohydrate counting.

For this, on a 1.5:1 ratio, I bolused for 5 units of Novorapid (as I rounded up the 4.5 units of the bolus to 5 units).

I hope this helps you to understand the carbohydrate counting in my post.
However, this post is not about carbohydrate counting. It focuses on a different concern.
 
Okay you guys!
I believe that I found the answer to this phenomenon and it is the circadian rhythm or, otherwise called, the biological clock.

According to the circadian rhythm, most of the body’s major physiological functions fluctuate with the time of day. Examples include body temperature, hormone secretion, urine production, blood circulation, metabolism, and even the growth of hair. These fluctuations usually go through a peak and a trough that coincide with particular times of day. For example, human body temperature is always lowest at night.

As diabetics we all know the “dawn phenomenon” which is the hormone cortisol peak secretion and occurs just before a person wakes up, so that this hormone’s level is highest when the person gets out of bed, thus contributing to the general activation of the body.

This is where most of us see a blood sugar rise.
Alright, so we know that. We have established that.

Here is the tricky part now.

The circadian cycle is divided into two sub-cycles of about 12 hours each.

The first and longest period of sleepiness occurs around the time that you are used to going to bed and is deepest between 3:00 AM and 6:00 AM. This is the time of day when your metabolism and body temperature are at their lowest. The body slows down, the hormones calm down as well and this is why most of us who check regularly during the night (myself included) may have noticed a dip in our blood glucose in between 03:00 – 05:00 0r 06:00. After this, the dawn phenomenon kicks in.

The second daily period of sleepiness occurs 12 hours later, between 2:00 PM and 4:00 PM. This period is shorter than the one that occurs at night, but we all know it well—it’s the mid-afternoon slump.You may have noticed that your body becomes more receptive towards insulin during these hours. I know mine does.

However, around 16:00 – 17:00 the biological clock makes us alert again.
Hormones come back into play therefore, we experience a phenomenon which is somewhat similar to the dawn phenomenon.
It is a little bit like the dawn phenomenon only that it occurs in the afternoon.

And this explains why some people, myself included, see an unexplained blood sugar rise in between 16:00 to 18:00

Now, if in this scheme, we include our insulin peaking hours, we get our pattern.
I will use myself as an example. In my case, I inject my morning Levemir at 07:00 am.
This injection peaks at 8-10 hours therefore, my basal insulin’s peak is in between 15:00 -17:00 pm.
My Lunchtime Novorapid is at 13:00.
This injection peaks at 1.5-2.5 hrs therefore, my bolus peak is in between 14:30 – 15:30.

It is very logical, in my mind at least, that with 2 insulins (basal and bolus) peaking at around the same time) plus a circadian circle that is more receptive during these hours, that I will see a drop in my blood glucose.

And, at 17:00, when both my basal insulin stabilizes and my Novorapid tails off, the body hormones come into play and I see a rise from 17:00 up until 18:00.

Fascinating, aint it?

In relation to food, what I have noticed is that, indeed, when I add butter or oil (or any other fat) at lunch, my food (which is already very low GI) delays even more. Therefore, my blood sugar drop in between 14:00-16:00 will be even bigger.
I noticed that if there is fat in my lunch the drop in between these hours can be even upto 4 mmols.

Without fat, and a bit of fruit (to change my meal to a medium GI) the blood glucose drop is about 1.5-2 mmols. In both cases, there is no activity involved during these hours.

Now, here is the question: How do I address the post-lunch drop and then the rise?
Well, unless I get a pump, I cannot. Because I am not still very confident to split Novorapid doses.

I discussed the matter with my doctor who suggested that, for the time being (and until I get a pump) I will have to live with it (just like I have to live with the dawn phenomenon and correct with my breakfast.)

I will try to see if a little bit of exercise in between 16:00-18:00 could push this rise downwards.

My doctor’s approach is not the ideal approach but, if I manage to get my levels within target for the rest of the 24 hrs then, maybe I can live with a small spike during the day.

I hope that you found this post useful.

Regards
Josephine.


P.S. There are more interesting things about the circadian rhythm and how our body becomes more responsive or more resistant to insulin during the 24 hours. I intend to post more about it and I hope that you will find it useful!

Circadian Rhythm of Alertness.jpg
 
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I hope that you found this post useful.

Regards
Josephine.


P.S. There are more interesting things about the circadian rhythm and how our body becomes more responsive or more resistant to insulin during the 24 hours. I intend to post more about it and I hope that you will find it useful!

View attachment 17099[/QUOTE]

Very good and insightful post Joesphine, you've elaborated a bit further on some areas which i'd read up on. Thanks for your detailed account of the good ol body clock.
 
Hi @Bluemarine Josephine, you might find tis graph useful from something I posted about dawn phenomenon a couple of months back:

DP-3.JPG

It shows average insulin and glucose concentration biorhythms for non-diabetics, with the "meal-time" spikes corresponding with food. What's interesting is how this contrasts with what Gary Scheiner recommends as pump basal graphs:

tab-5.JPG


In theory, a pump basal rate should match the former graph with some interpolation of the lower levels between the meal spikes, however his doesn't. Interestingly mine doesn't either, although I wonder what others see.

What's also interesting for me is that using Levemir you could estimate the basal curve you wanted based on the insulin concentration and absorption rate graphs to work out optimal dosing and timing of the dual shot model.
 
Hi @Bluemarine Josephine, you might find tis graph useful from something I posted about dawn phenomenon a couple of months back:

DP-3.JPG

It shows average insulin and glucose concentration biorhythms for non-diabetics, with the "meal-time" spikes corresponding with food. What's interesting is how this contrasts with what Gary Scheiner recommends as pump basal graphs:

tab-5.JPG


In theory, a pump basal rate should match the former graph with some interpolation of the lower levels between the meal spikes, however his doesn't. Interestingly mine doesn't either, although I wonder what others see.

What's also interesting for me is that using Levemir you could estimate the basal curve you wanted based on the insulin concentration and absorption rate graphs to work out optimal dosing and timing of the dual shot model.


What a great idea Tim!
What if I use the timing of my Levemir injections to supress the circadian rhythm!
So, instead of injecting Levemir at 07:00 am (and have it peaking at the same hours along with Novorapid plus the circadian dip,) I push the morning Levemir injection an hour later, say 08:00 am and have Levemir peaking an hour later, (16:00-18:00) while the circadian rhythm starts picking up around 17:00. Theoretically, the Levemir peak should supress somewhat the blood sugar rise at around that time.

Likewise, If I move my evening Levemir forward by 1-2 hours then, in the same way, I might be able to use Levemir's peak to "cheat" the dawn phenomenon a bit...

Just a thought...
Should work... I guess?
 
What a great idea Tim!
What if I use the timing of my Levemir injections to supress the circadian rhythm!
So, instead of injecting Levemir at 07:00 am (and have it peaking at the same hours along with Novorapid plus the circadian dip,) I push the morning Levemir injection an hour later, say 08:00 am and have Levemir peaking an hour later, (16:00-18:00) while the circadian rhythm starts picking up around 17:00. Theoretically, the Levemir peak should supress somewhat the blood sugar rise at around that time.

Likewise, If I move my evening Levemir forward by 1-2 hours then, in the same way, I might be able to use Levemir's peak to "cheat" the dawn phenomenon a bit...

Just a thought...
Should work... I guess?
That's my thinking, although be careful on your peak timing. Very dependent on dosage per kg of body weight. And at small dosages, can be a very flat profile.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Okay you guys!
I believe that I found the answer to this phenomenon and it is the circadian rhythm or, otherwise called, the biological clock.

According to the circadian rhythm, most of the body’s major physiological functions fluctuate with the time of day. Examples include body temperature, hormone secretion, urine production, blood circulation, metabolism, and even the growth of hair. These fluctuations usually go through a peak and a trough that coincide with particular times of day. For example, human body temperature is always lowest at night.

As diabetics we all know the “dawn phenomenon” which is the hormone cortisol peak secretion and occurs just before a person wakes up, so that this hormone’s level is highest when the person gets out of bed, thus contributing to the general activation of the body.

This is where most of us see a blood sugar rise.
Alright, so we know that. We have established that.

Here is the tricky part now.

The circadian cycle is divided into two sub-cycles of about 12 hours each.

The first and longest period of sleepiness occurs around the time that you are used to going to bed and is deepest between 3:00 AM and 6:00 AM. This is the time of day when your metabolism and body temperature are at their lowest. The body slows down, the hormones calm down as well and this is why most of us who check regularly during the night (myself included) may have noticed a dip in our blood glucose in between 03:00 – 05:00 0r 06:00. After this, the dawn phenomenon kicks in.

The second daily period of sleepiness occurs 12 hours later, between 2:00 PM and 4:00 PM. This period is shorter than the one that occurs at night, but we all know it well—it’s the mid-afternoon slump.You may have noticed that your body becomes more receptive towards insulin during these hours. I know mine does.

However, around 16:00 – 17:00 the biological clock makes us alert again.
Hormones come back into play therefore, we experience a phenomenon which is somewhat similar to the dawn phenomenon.
It is a little bit like the dawn phenomenon only that it occurs in the afternoon.

And this explains why some people, myself included, see an unexplained blood sugar rise in between 16:00 to 18:00

Now, if in this scheme, we include our insulin peaking hours, we get our pattern.
I will use myself as an example. In my case, I inject my morning Levemir at 07:00 am.
This injection peaks at 8-10 hours therefore, my basal insulin’s peak is in between 15:00 -17:00 pm.
My Lunchtime Novorapid is at 13:00.
This injection peaks at 1.5-2.5 hrs therefore, my bolus peak is in between 14:30 – 15:30.

It is very logical, in my mind at least, that with 2 insulins (basal and bolus) peaking at around the same time) plus a circadian circle that is more receptive during these hours, that I will see a drop in my blood glucose.

And, at 17:00, when both my basal insulin stabilizes and my Novorapid tails off, the body hormones come into play and I see a rise from 17:00 up until 18:00.

Fascinating, aint it?

In relation to food, what I have noticed is that, indeed, when I add butter or oil (or any other fat) at lunch, my food (which is already very low GI) delays even more. Therefore, my blood sugar drop in between 14:00-16:00 will be even bigger.
I noticed that if there is fat in my lunch the drop in between these hours can be even upto 4 mmols.

Without fat, and a bit of fruit (to change my meal to a medium GI) the blood glucose drop is about 1.5-2 mmols. In both cases, there is no activity involved during these hours.

Now, here is the question: How do I address the post-lunch drop and then the rise?
Well, unless I get a pump, I cannot. Because I am not still very confident to split Novorapid doses.

I discussed the matter with my doctor who suggested that, for the time being (and until I get a pump) I will have to live with it (just like I have to live with the dawn phenomenon and correct with my breakfast.)

I will try to see if a little bit of exercise in between 16:00-18:00 could push this rise downwards.

My doctor’s approach is not the ideal approach but, if I manage to get my levels within target for the rest of the 24 hrs then, maybe I can live with a small spike during the day.

I hope that you found this post useful.

Regards
Josephine.


P.S. There are more interesting things about the circadian rhythm and how our body becomes more responsive or more resistant to insulin during the 24 hours. I intend to post more about it and I hope that you will find it useful!

View attachment 17099
Very interesting reading. This graph shows exactly my basal pattern! When I was on injections I always needed a snack at 3/4pm.
I'm not convinced though that its the main cause of your problems. I believe you need to work out how to bolus for protein/fat, especially if your diet is lowish in carbs and low GI (actually low GI carbs in most cases means higher protein content, just look at beans, lentils,quinoa etc) If you have libre, maybe you could try splitting novorapid? I find it very safe now to experiment a bit, when I have constant access to my bg readings. Pump obviously would be ideal, and I hope you will get one soon. Fingers crossed
 
That's my thinking, although be careful on your peak timing. Very dependent on dosage per kg of body weight. And at small dosages, can be a very flat profile.

Hello Tim, thank you for your reply.
I am wondering, what amount of basal insulin (in this case Levemir) is considered a small dosage?
 
This is the graph I always go back to:

Levimirspeeddose.jpg

It seems to be reasonably accurate for my dosing and that of others. On Levemir, I was taking split doses. One was 0.173u/kg and the other 0.0925u/kg. Given the layout of the graph above, I'd consider them both to be small doses.

I think anything lower than 0.2u/kg should be considered a low dose.
 
This is the graph I always go back to:

Levimirspeeddose.jpg

It seems to be reasonably accurate for my dosing and that of others. On Levemir, I was taking split doses. One was 0.173u/kg and the other 0.0925u/kg. Given the layout of the graph above, I'd consider them both to be small doses.

I think anything lower than 0.2u/kg should be considered a low dose.

So, on the basis of this graph, Levemir on small doses peaks around 2nd to 6th hour after injection and lasts for 18 hours.
Whereas, in larger doses, it peaks on the 8th - 10th hour (and lasts longer)...
This graph is very useful to me and I thank you very much for it.
My morning injection is at 1.176u/kg but, I suspect it is a lot as I get some random hypoglycemic episodes around 2-3 hours after lunch, believing it is because of my levemir (however, I do not have a continuous pattern on a daily basis hence I am debating with myself if I should lower the dose or if I should work around it using food and timing). The second injection is 0.147u/kg.

Therefore, I am on the lower side hence the peaking hours should be between 2-6 hours after injection... This gives me a new perspective (as you understand...)
 
Very interesting reading. This graph shows exactly my basal pattern! When I was on injections I always needed a snack at 3/4pm.
I'm not convinced though that its the main cause of your problems. I believe you need to work out how to bolus for protein/fat, especially if your diet is lowish in carbs and low GI (actually low GI carbs in most cases means higher protein content, just look at beans, lentils,quinoa etc) If you have libre, maybe you could try splitting novorapid? I find it very safe now to experiment a bit, when I have constant access to my bg readings. Pump obviously would be ideal, and I hope you will get one soon. Fingers crossed

Hello Ewelina!
I completely agree with you regarding protein/fat. I am not very confident to do it at the moment, however I have noticed that there are times that I have protein with meals (or some butter on low GI rye bread in the morning) and I give 1 unit as correction and it is not correcting, on the contrary it brings me back to my starting bg level which makes me think that this 1 unit is used for the protein/fat in my meal. I believe you are very correct. I am not very confident to do it as of now but, I feel that I will have to figure out a way to do in order to achieve accurate bg levels.

You see, in DAFNE, they teach us how to calculate on the basis of carbohydrates but, not for protein or fat so, I do not know where to start...

By the way, did you try a different site for your Libre sensor? How did it go?
 
So, on the basis of this graph, Levemir on small doses peaks around 2nd to 6th hour after injection and lasts for 18 hours.
Whereas, in larger doses, it peaks on the 8th - 10th hour (and lasts longer)...
This graph is very useful to me and I thank you very much for it.
My morning injection is at 1.176u/kg but, I suspect it is a lot as I get some random hypoglycemic episodes around 2-3 hours after lunch, believing it is because of my levemir (however, I do not have a continuous pattern on a daily basis hence I am debating with myself if I should lower the dose or if I should work around it using food and timing). The second injection is 0.147u/kg.

Therefore, I am on the lower side hence the peaking hours should be between 2-6 hours after injection... This gives me a new perspective (as you understand...)
I find on my smaller dose that the active amount of Levemir between 12 and 16 hours is so low that it is unable to deal with dawn phenomenon. I therefore have my doses split 9.30 at night for the small one, 7.30am for the larger one. This tends to keep my fasted glucose levels relatively flat, although I get some climbing through the end of the day and in the morning as the two doses expire, which I correct with Novorapid.

I experimented with increased basal when I was eating around 200g protein per day to try and alleviate the gluconeogenisis I was seeing, and it had some effect but caused issues when I exercised. Ultimately, I ended up on a scheme of sugar surfing using MDI, with a basal that made me flat fasted, and adjusted to deal with resistance training, generally injected after the workout. This was accompanied by lots of novorapid shots to try and mimic some of the extended bolus type options that a pump offers.

It worked, but a pump is easier.
 
I find on my smaller dose that the active amount of Levemir between 12 and 16 hours is so low that it is unable to deal with dawn phenomenon. I therefore have my doses split 9.30 at night for the small one, 7.30am for the larger one. This tends to keep my fasted glucose levels relatively flat, although I get some climbing through the end of the day and in the morning as the two doses expire, which I correct with Novorapid.

I experimented with increased basal when I was eating around 200g protein per day to try and alleviate the gluconeogenisis I was seeing, and it had some effect but caused issues when I exercised. Ultimately, I ended up on a scheme of sugar surfing using MDI, with a basal that made me flat fasted, and adjusted to deal with resistance training, generally injected after the workout. This was accompanied by lots of novorapid shots to try and mimic some of the extended bolus type options that a pump offers.

It worked, but a pump is easier.

The dawn phenomenon is a right pain, i adjusted my lantus and last two mornings woken with it at 11.2 and 11.7, slightly to much lantus then i'll go low during the night.

What i did find after waking up through the night a couple of weeks ago, it's about two hours prior to final waking where my blood sugar can rise between 3-5mmol, if i stay awake all night i don't get the cortisol awakening response kick in.
 
What i did find after waking up through the night a couple of weeks ago, it's about two hours prior to final waking where my blood sugar can rise between 3-5mmol, if i stay awake all night i don't get the cortisol awakening response kick in.
Sounds like a solution ;) Not sure how maintainable it is though.... :grumpy::grumpy::grumpy:
 
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