Is weight loss really ALL about calories?

[Oldvatr]

I haven't done a 21 day experiment but here's a 5 day experiment I did a while back. I thought I would see what happened if I took LCHF to the extreme. I had less exercise than normal during the 5 days, so the weight loss can't be attributed to that. Here's the average macros.

Carbs 2.74%
Fat 92.69%
Protein 4.57%

calories 2312


https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/my-5-day-dairy-fat-fast.81433/

You forgot to tell us what the weight loss was. Any other effects noted?

 

[zand]

But how many calories did you eat before you started low carb?

As I said in the thread that I quoted...

"I have yoyo dieted for very many years. No diet ever worked for me long term until I started following LCHF. As at Monday last week (August 2015) I had lost 2 stones 11 pounds since April 1st 2014. I had also lost 7 pounds before this date but this took me around 2 years to achieve. My metabolism has suffered greatly by so much dieting and cutting down of calories, so much so that I have very gradually increased the amount I eat to at least 1200-1300 calories a day, sometimes up to about 1800 calories, but never less than 1200. I need to keep my metabolism boosted. I will no longer starve myself to lose weight. "

I lost 6 pounds in 5 days doing the fat fast.

Thanks for starting this thread @pdmjoker , you have motivated me to do another one when I feel well enough.

 

[pdmjoker]

adipose Fat goes to the liver and bacon areas

Very helpful and informative post, but not sure what you mean by "bacon areas"...

 

[Oldvatr]

Very helpful and informative post, but not sure what you mean by "bacon areas"...

Bacon in a pig is around the midriff, similar to the spare tyre of metabolic syndrome. The upper torso is where most adipose tissue resides in a human,

 

[Mrs T 123]

As I said in the thread that I quoted...

"I have yoyo dieted for very many years. No diet ever worked for me long term until I started following LCHF. As at Monday last week (August 2015) I had lost 2 stones 11 pounds since April 1st 2014. I had also lost 7 pounds before this date but this took me around 2 years to achieve. My metabolism has suffered greatly by so much dieting and cutting down of calories, so much so that I have very gradually increased the amount I eat to at least 1200-1300 calories a day, sometimes up to about 1800 calories, but never less than 1200. I need to keep my metabolism boosted. I will no longer starve myself to lose weight. "

I lost 6 pounds in 5 days doing the fat fast.

Thanks for starting this thread @pdmjoker , you have motivated me to do another one when I feel well enough.

@zand May I ask what you mean that your metabolism has suffered greatly by so much dieting and cutting down of calories - as like yourself I have lost a lot of weight and now I can't appear to lose any more and I sometimes feel it's maybe because I don't eat enough now as when I lost weight before I was eating a a lot more but I don't really know what I am talking about and if you had any advice on metabolism, calories etc. it would be helpful to me as I feel it could maybe be something to do with my metabolism but I am not sure what - any suggestions since you seem to know what you are talking about - many thanks

 

[pdmjoker]

Bacon in a pig is around the midriff, similar to the spare tyre of metabolic syndrome. The upper torso is where most adipose tissue resides in a human,

Thank you!

the difference in weight gain is interesting but doesn’t high carb increase water too?

Good point. I can't remember just how much water is required per gram of carbs but your point highlights that weight loss/gain isn't all down to calories - eg whether the diet is low or high carb seems significant.

 

[MrsA2]

@zand May I ask what you mean that your metabolism has suffered greatly by so much dieting and cutting down of calories - as like yourself I have lost a lot of weight and now I can't appear to lose any more and I sometimes feel it's maybe because I don't eat enough now as when I lost weight before I was eating a a lot more but I don't really know what I am talking about and if you had any advice on metabolism, calories etc. it would be helpful to me as I feel it could maybe be something to do with my metabolism but I am not sure what - any suggestions since you seem to know what you are talking about - many thanks

This talk has some tips

 

[Mrs T 123]

This talk has some tips

Very interesting - many thanks- much appreciated

 

[pdmjoker]

There is only one fuel that our bodies use for energy. Pyruvate which is the heart of the Citric Cycle. Pyruvate is a acetyl molecule that gets stripped out and burnt in the muscle cells. We do not burn fat or glucose We burn ATP and NADH through the process of glycolysis. One molecule of glucose makes up to 28 molecules of ATP. Lipids are more dense and produce more ATP per chain. But not all glucose gets used in muscles to produce motion. It also makes other molecules for the brain to use, and also makes glycerol for cholesterol and cell membranes. So not all consumed energy is for making us get up to put the kettle on. Lipids similarly are not all used for motion. A lot of the lipid energy goes in keeping our temperature steady and protecting our skin and vital organs, and just holding everything together in the right places.

Every time a molecule gets stripped down it takes energy, and this is the major contributor to the equation that is ignored. Complex chains such as fats, starches, and soluble fibres use the most energy to
break apart.
So much of our so called energy is expended in what could be termed basal activities at a fairly constant rate. We breathe, we think, we fart. Exercise is on top of this loading. So doing HIT is only addressing only a small part of the problem.

The other component of weight is water. A large component of our food intake is water, Glucose is stored as glucogen which is ([ 1x glucose + 4 x water) as globules of fat So while glucose is indeed linked to calories, the water is not.

For fats the lipids store triglycerides and not much else. So adipose fat is much more dense than muscle fat, but is the hardest to shift. It is the body's long term storehouse, whereas muscle fat is for sprinters and HIT.

We lose glycogen store first, so are losing fewer calories but more weight at first. When those get depleted then we start raiding the lipid stores, starting with what is already in the blood, then the adipose tissues.

So some calories are more important than others. Glucogen is the main storage for glucose, which mostly comes directly from carbs and is our short term storage facility. It goes into most cells in the body, both muscle and adipose Fat goes to the liver and bacon areas i.e. it goes direct into storage and only goes to the muscles when needed (e.g. Liver Dump or Dawn Phenomenon). But there are confounders in the equation. Our body can convert from glucose to lipid, and also in reverse. Out body can and does leak glucose via the kidneys, and fat via the bile duct and gall bladder. It can also remove the enzymes that act on digesting the food to stop the bits getting into the bloodstream in the first place, These things are why the CICO model is poor in explaining weight loss. It assumes our bodies act in the same way as the calorimeters used to measure calorific value, and we are not built that way.

The Low Fat mantra comes from the belief that because lipids go direct to the adipose tissue, as fat, This means that every gram of fat you eat must end up around your tummy and thighs, It also assumes that the ONLY way to remove this stored fat is by exercise or liposuction. But exercise attacks the other storehouse first, which makes us hungry, and so we eat more. This mantra also ignores the role of Grehlin, which is the turn off the tap enzyme that tells us we have had enough and are sated.

By using a Low Carb diet we have found by experiment that we can reduce our glycogen stores by diet, which also lends itself to using up the lipid stores without needing to do marathon running or weight training As a pensioner I read the Gov guidelines that to cover Mars bar requires (X) miles run, or (X+XX) miles walk, and my immediate reaction was Up Yours Sunshine.

You seem to be extremely well informed, and logical. Were you a scientist at some point in life?

Comment on your signature: it appears to me that you are pretty much able to look at info objectively (no one can do so 100%) whereas I find many people do as you have said and only choose to see what they want to see (even scientists and doctors).

Ironically, some people who describe themselves as a "critical thinker" merely turn out to be deeply critical of those who can think more rationally than them....

 

[pdmjoker]

Thanks for starting this thread @pdmjoker , you have motivated me to do another one when I feel well enough.

Cool! Always glad to have helped others....

 

[zand]

@zand May I ask what you mean that your metabolism has suffered greatly by so much dieting and cutting down of calories - as like yourself I have lost a lot of weight and now I can't appear to lose any more and I sometimes feel it's maybe because I don't eat enough now as when I lost weight before I was eating a a lot more but I don't really know what I am talking about and if you had any advice on metabolism, calories etc. it would be helpful to me as I feel it could maybe be something to do with my metabolism but I am not sure what - any suggestions since you seem to know what you are talking about - many thanks

I yo-yo dieted for around 35 years as low calorie diets just aren't sustainable long term. Over time I got fatter on fewer calories and needed to cut down even more to lose any weight at all. This couldn't go on, I kept getting ill as I wasn't getting enough nutrients.
There could be a few things going on with you.
How much more weight do you feel you need to lose? If you are near to your target weight then maybe you are at the right weight for you already.
We often reach a plateau for a while when we have lost weight and then weight loss resumes again at a slower rate.
You could be right that you don't eat enough. It could be that you need more to stop your body thinking it is starving. Just be strict on the carbs and eat normal amounts of protein and increase the fat if you are hungry.
I made the mistake of not eating enough protein and so I lost muscle, and it's muscles that keep the metabolism going by burning off the energy. The problem with a calorie controlled diet for me was that I could eat what I wanted as long as it was calorie counted. Some of what I ate was junk. I also drank diet drinks to excess which wasn't a good thing.
If you have increased muscle then you will be heavier but leaner and that's a good thing, so it's not all about weight.

You say I seem to know what I am talking about...well I have learnt from my mistakes (and I have made alot) but I still have a long way to go...

 

[Mrs T 123]

I yo-yo dieted for around 35 years as low calorie diets just aren't sustainable long term. Over time I got fatter on fewer calories and needed to cut down even more to lose any weight at all. This couldn't go on, I kept getting ill as I wasn't getting enough nutrients.
There could be a few things going on with you.
How much more weight do you feel you need to lose? If you are near to your target weight then maybe you are at the right weight for you already.
We often reach a plateau for a while when we have lost weight and then weight loss resumes again at a slower rate.
You could be right that you don't eat enough. It could be that you need more to stop your body thinking it is starving. Just be strict on the carbs and eat normal amounts of protein and increase the fat if you are hungry.
I made the mistake of not eating enough protein and so I lost muscle, and it's muscles that keep the metabolism going by burning off the energy. The problem with a calorie controlled diet for me was that I could eat what I wanted as long as it was calorie counted. Some of what I ate was junk. I also drank diet drinks to excess which wasn't a good thing.
If you have increased muscle then you will be heavier but leaner and that's a good thing, so it's not all about weight.

You say I seem to know what I am talking about...well I have learnt from my mistakes (and I have made alot) but I still have a long way to go...

Many thanks for that - much appreciated - I am not overweight but I do have a pot belly - so I am now thinking
probably don't need to eat less, I am pretty active every day so I think now I will try cutting back on the fat as I probably have far too much cream - will water it down and use half - and see how that goes and possibly up my protein - trial and error eh?

 

[zand]

Many thanks for that - much appreciated - I am not overweight but I do have a pot belly - so I am now thinking
probably don't need to eat less, I am pretty active every day so I think now I will try cutting back on the fat as I probably have far too much cream - will water it down and use half - and see how that goes and possibly up my protein - trial and error eh?

If your weight loss is recent it can take a while for your body shape to 'even out' too.

 

[Oldvatr]

Many thanks for that - much appreciated - I am not overweight but I do have a pot belly - so I am now thinking
probably don't need to eat less, I am pretty active every day so I think now I will try cutting back on the fat as I probably have far too much cream - will water it down and use half - and see how that goes and possibly up my protein - trial and error eh?

increasing protein is also a way of increasing weight. Proteins can also turn into glucose and lipids. As you say, trial and error. Swings and roundabouts. Paradoxically it seems eating fat does not make one fat according to several recent studies.

 

[Mrs T 123]

increasing protein is also a way of increasing weight. Proteins can also turn into glucose and lipids. As you say, trial and error. Swings and roundabouts. Paradoxically it seems eating fat does not make one fat according to several recent studies.

Many thanks for that and yes I know that is what they say but what I personally have found is since going lower carb and HIGHER fat (I didn't have cream at all before this) the weight is very quickly going back on and the only thing I can think of is I have increased my fats recently and that is when the weight has started creeping up - may be just coincidence that I started upping my fat intake then weight starting creeping back up or I am menopausal so could be that, I don't know what it is but I don't like it

 

[ianf0ster]

Many thanks for that - much appreciated - I am not overweight but I do have a pot belly - so I am now thinking
probably don't need to eat less, I am pretty active every day so I think now I will try cutting back on the fat as I probably have far too much cream - will water it down and use half - and see how that goes and possibly up my protein - trial and error eh?

@Debandez says that although she stopped losing weight after putting her T2D into remission, her waist size is still shrinking over 1yr after she stopped losing weight, although more slowly now.

 

[ianf0ster]

Mr Pot was asking if any of us measured calorie intake before LCHF versus on LCHF.
I didn't, but my way of eating (I have never dieted) before LCHF was ( HCLF) and was high in whole grains but very low in sugars (except for a daily banana).
Thus when I replaced most of those carbs with roughly the same amount of full fat dairy plus bacon, eggs and stopped cutting off the fat from my meat etc. Then in calorie terms my total calories increased by about the same amount as was in the carbs that I cut since fat contains about twice the calories than the same quantity of carbs.
As an estimate I would say that I went from consuming around 2,500 calories to consuming well over 3,00 calories per day in the first few weeks until I became 'fat adapted'. During that time I was losing approx 1 1/2 lbs per week (though at first that would mainly have been water. Note that my daily exercise was consistent from before Low Carb through all the way up to now - a 35 min brisk walk every day unless weather is terrible.

Due to becoming fat adapted, I lost my appetite for breakfast, and my stomach got used to smaller total amounts of food (since it is now much more calorie and nutrient dense). So since then I'm back to consuming 2,500 calories or less per day again.

 

[lucylocket61]

Many thanks for that and yes I know that is what they say but what I personally have found is since going lower carb and HIGHER fat (I didn't have cream at all before this) the weight is very quickly going back on and the only thing I can think of is I have increased my fats recently and that is when the weight has started creeping up - may be just coincidence that I started upping my fat intake then weight starting creeping back up or I am menopausal so could be that, I don't know what it is but I don't like it

I find it depends on the fats. Seed oils, for example, act like carbs for me.

 

[LaoDan]

I’ve seen two pro low carb docs recently talk about CICO. Both talked about protein sparing modified fasts. Two takeaways, why the added fat, I.e. adding butter to coffee, when I have a tub around my mid section. And gluconeogenesis, either from fat or protein is “on demand”, and not as a result of overeating either macro.

The proof is, attempt to eat 6 lean chicken breasts, if all that protein were automatically turned into glucose, you’d spike. “Ted Naiman”

 

[lucylocket61]

Thought also needs to be given to the diet the meat animal was fed. I can't find the links, but it used to be well known, in UK farming circles, that high carb feeding of animals resulted in higher carb meat.