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It has been said before but.......

There are more arguments in this forum than in a school play ground. :roll:
 
oops - hadnt noticed the hpc - that is because hpc is the prof body and u know I am hopeless at typing.

I have only criticised low carbing because it is inherantly low in nutrients that are essential. So if I have made some of you think about calcium etc then that is a positive.
The analysis I did showed that in a small way.


The reason I saw red was that it appears that if a health prof doesnt agree with this he/she is a bad guy! not my words - i felt that it was provoking an argument in fact.

I have repeated time and again that a moderate approach is the right way based on the individual- not a on size fits all!
 
Ally direct question ........ What Vits + Nutrients do you get from Carbs that you dont get from all other Green leaf veg etc.

Direct answer required.
Dave P
 
Hi Ally. Hope that you are still with us. I can see a bit of both sides in this but I think that you do need to see where other people are coming from - I don't think that people are criticising all Healthcare Professionals only the ones that they come into conflict with that appear to work against them. I self diagnosed and went to the Doc for tests - her surgery tests suggested that I was not diabetic but agreed to the 2 statutary tests to prove that I was. So that was now about 6 weeks that I had been an untreated diabetic with only the "eat plenty of carbs booklet" to help me. Then I had my meeting with my Surgery diabetic sister who explained that Ineeded 3 months trial on diet before drugs could be prescribed, I shouldn't have a meter because the testing could become obsessive and the readings could cause depression ( She did mention checking this site for advice). A meeting with a dietician was arranged 6 weeks hence. My son has been Type 1 for 5 years now so I know this site and have been a memeber of Diabetes UK for all that time so I used his meter a few times to check my blood and the results were horrifying. I couldn't believe that this was how the NHS could treat? people. I assume that I would get another call in 3 months to recheck the blood and then a telling off about the levels. Having stewed on this for a day or so I wrote her a letter explaining why I needed a meter to control my diabetes. I got a call straight back saying come and pick one up. She also prescribed 1 metformin a day to protect my heart? I rapidly found that with no drugs any starches ( I cut out sugars as soon as I self diagnosed) sent my blood way up into double figures - once when we were out all I could get was a sandwich and I was over 16 for over 3 hours. My dietician told me I was virtually Atkins and needed to include all the starches to get a balanced diet - I didn't bite? and nodded. I now have scheduled a firther group diet meeting that I don't want and a follow up "How did it go" meeeting after that. I have requested further strips twice since as they are not on repeat and been granted them but I have also had to buy plenty to do the tests that I believe necessary. I believe my surgery sister is doing the best she can under imposed constraints. I do not believe the dieticians are prepared to listen or maybe fully understand diabetes. You may very well be in the same category as my surgery sister and try to apply common sense but in general I think that the NHS is very poor particularly in the early stages of treatment so if we have a go at someone please do not take it personally you may very well be one of the good guys. We have to take it personally. I am gently trying to get my son to slowly reduce some starch and insulin because I feel it is the way to go. My numbers are usually in the 5's with the occassional 8 if we eat out. Took me a long while to type this so may appear out of context.
 
Gbtyke.............. you have had the best teaching there is. The school of experience. It is also not far from what most others have found.

Well put
Dave P
 
good post and thanks for your support.

Can I just say that dietitians do understand diabetes and spend a long time studying it . The BDA (our prof body) has a diabetes specialist group and is very proactive in training.
I go to reg study days and get prof journals, email up dates etc.

Maybe it would be useful for members to have an insight into the role of all the health prof and what they can do. Altho I have to say too many are dabbling in diet without any knowledge!

In practice I find is that if you use controlled carb portions at each meal then it works. Every year I do an audit of pts - I look at every new client in one month and follow them thro looking at bs, chol etc and I am getting results like yours. One of the major problems is that people are getting advicefrom other professionals and it may be from a standard book and that is part of the problem I feel. Pts are also getting a raw deal as there are not enough trained dietitians - 6000 in total in the uk so if you get 20 minutes you are lucky.

I am very lucky working for the gps because I have freedom to practice and pts wait a couple of weeks to see me . I am starting a masters in sept and I am considering a dissertation in this area.
 
Dear Ally .............. you really should re read the post. Far from support she is saying what a lot are saying the advice is abhorrent. Experience for a lot of us is different even those who have seen dieticiens.

Dave P
 
My view is that this site is weighted heavily in favour of the really-low carbers but i do feel that in recent months the mods have managed to present a less fervant argument for that and have diffused some heated debates.

I would like some moderation comment when i see (but i havent seen similar for some time, now, to be fair) someone making a statement to the effect that 'under 4 isnt low' and 'if you avoid carbs, you can achieve non-diabetic results' or similar.

I think this because for a newbie, such extreme opinions are scary and depressing. They are alarmist, too. However, the message of 'reduce carbs and gain better control' is one that i would welcome and advocate every time.

I have never been invited to see a dietician for my diabetes but were i to bem i'd decline.

This isnt because i feel the dietician would try to promote the frankly ill-considered 'eat plenty of whole grain carbs with every meal' mantra but because i think it detracts from the message that WE are responsible for our bodies and WE should take responsibility to experiment until we find a method that works for us individually.

But i do have a lasting memory of one dietician i saw a few years ago, before i became diabetic. I was overweight, with a severe food allergy, and this lady picked up a paper plate, handed me some crayons and asked me to draw what i thought of as a balanced meal, on it.

I thanked her politely and left.

The second time i saw a dietician, she was a sensible, intelligent woman working from the hospital and she and i spent a long time reading her 'book of foods' and discussing options and alternatives. She felt that, given my severe food allergies (all nuts, most fruits, soya, seseme...) i was doing a good job but to lose weight...'you need to really cut back on those carbs...'

And as weight and diabetes are so intrinsically tied together, i think it might be the simple answer.

That, if you're overweight at all, reducing carbs is going to help lower your b.g. and allow a more stable HbA1c result.

bunty
 
Dear Bunty ......... The site is a reflection of life in general. If anyone speaks up they can either be listnened to or shouted down. Thats life. Which ever camp you find yourself they will have likes and dislikes. As much as i admire moderation in terms of BS readings that would be too high a price for me.

Respectfully
Dave P
 
And what's more you can test it with your own meter. Oh dear, your health care professional told you not to do that.

You can also see the results in your regular full lipid panels. Oh dear, your health care professional doesn;t let you have them any more.
 
What I still completely fail to understand is, IF Ally gets the results she claims then why isn't she out there educating the clueless dieticians doctors and nurses (who are sadly legion) instead of screeching abusively at diabetics who are actually achieving good results?

And not only here

http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2007/10/03 ... nadequate/

who does "Chris" remind you of?

NEARLY everyone else here contributes positivity.
 
To get back to Broads original question at the start of this thread, "What are we going to to with our wide body of knowledge and experience regarding the benefits of restricted carb diets for diabetics?"

This is what I am doing:

1. I have given full information to the SIGN (Scottish equivalent of NICE) regarding how the ten year old guideline was scientifically flawed. (For "flawed" what I really mean is "wrong")
2. I have pushed the information far beyond my current guideline group to the head of SIGN and all the chairmen of the various sub-groups.

Either:

a. They will act with integrity and acknowlege the previous "error" and sort out the new guidelines.

or

b. They will bury as much as they can and hope for the best.

Actually, it doesn't matter too much regarding my activities what they do. But it will matter to diabetics all over the world.

If plan a. is pursued, the next SIGN diabetes guideline will give carb restriction the prominence it deserves. As the first domino in the pile to acknowlege this there will be a follow on copy cat effect and the international guidelines will change too. This is the most effective and efficient solution.

If plan b. is pursued, the next SIGN diabetes guideline will be a wishy washy affair and the input of the voluntary sector ( ie you and me) will be paramount in restoring health to diabetics worldwide.
I am in touch with other interested parties internationally and we will need to work together. My idea is to establish an online international diabetes univerisity for diabetics, carers and health professionals to share excellence in practice and educational materials.

After years working in an educational and health care system steeped in stupidity, laziness and politics, you can probably guess what option I think is most likely.

There is, however, a paper trail a mile long, that indicates that those in power, have not acted in the best interests of patients or with any integrity at all, should option b, be taken.

I will make the best use of that material that I possibly can.

Katharine.
 
Katherine as much as my heart goes with you i am not hopefull against the vested interests.

But hope springs eternal
Dave P
 
I've just got the latest Type 2 leaflet from DUK from my chemist. I have asked for it repeatedly for many months.
(C) 2009 Egton Medical Info Systems.

It has much useful info BUT it includes these gems:

various foods are broken down in your gut into sugars.
No mention of what foods

the main aims of treatment are:
to keep your blood glucose as near normal as possible.
target HbA1c 6.5 - 7.5%
Obviously that is the normal range - but I had complications at 6.7.

some people check their actual BS each day. If you are advised to do this your Dr or nurse will give you instructions
Obviously not necessary, except on professional advice.

healthy diet as recommended for everyone - low fat, high fibre, plenty of starchy foods, fruit & veg.
This is dangerous disinfo in my experience. There is no mention of cutting back on sugar!
Click to expand...
Ally - will you endorse or criticise this?

What is your recommendation for HBA?
Patient testing?
Quantity of starchy foods?
 
My HbA1c results average out at 6.3 over 27 years, and I've had them done AT LEAST once a year throughout that period. My complications started 11 years after diagnosis, and I now have most (but not all) of them.

I suspect I am getting into dangerous territory again so I'm just going to shut up, for now anyway... :D
 
Bloody hell!

Isn't the disease itself enough to deal with, without falling out about what appears to be degrees of the same advice?

Especially when there doesn't appear to be a "one size fits all" approach?

Maybe we need a new forum - "Let's all fall out about it".. where we can can put all the bile and nastiness and competing theories...

You vs me, us against the rest, you me & the rest against the world, etc...
 
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