LC and how your body works

[maryrachel]

So sorry if there is already loads of info you have all discussed out there around this and apologies for the title to the post. I am Type 1 about 30 years. Tried low carbing 15 years ago and had really bad stomach issues. Thinking maybe too much dairy now??? anyway - after 15 years of semi denial and excuses I am back on the carb wagon - or starting to. My question is when you reduce carbs your body uses energy differently right? So usually I manage my diabetes quite well on previous high carb diet by testing 8-10 times a day and carb counting. If I do any exercise I have to reduce my insulin by at least 20% 2 hours before. However - yesterday after a few days low carb (50-70g - is low carb for me) I went for a very vigorous walk. I was so convinced that I would drop like a stone but I didn't? How is that? What is low carbing doing to even it out? My theory is that if I eat carbs my body uses them first - we all know this. But it then loses the ability or knowledge to use other reserves instantly. But if you don't eat much cho your body uses first glycogen and then fat so because my body had no instant reserves it? Help anyone?

 

[Deleted Account]

I can't directly answer your question.
However, I find my BG drops when exercising if I have insulin on board. If I have eaten in the last couple of hours and correctly carb counted, my body becomes more efficient in using the insulin I have left when I exercise.
Maybe nothing to do with low carb but I am wondering if eating less carbs and, therefore, taking less insulin, means you do not have this experience.

 

[ziggy_w]

Hi @maryrachel,

I am not a T1, so can't comment on the insulin.

However, I might be able to help with your other question -- just happen to have googled it a few hours earlier.

The reason that your blood sugars might not have dropped dramatically during your rigorous walk might be adaptive glucose sparing. This means that on a ketogenic or low carb diet, your muscles prefer to use fat over glucose in order to spare glucose for essential processes such as creating red blood cells or for the brain.

Here is an excellent explanation, I read on one of the sites I found:

Why would your peripheral tissues be primed and adpated to remove glucose from blood if… there isn’t any glucose in there to speak of? No, those tissues adapt. Glucose transporters fold back inside the cell from the surface, instead the cell becomes more adept at taking in fat which is circulating. You literally become adapted to sparing glucose for use by those cells which absolutely require it. Some brain cells, red blood cells and testes require glucose because they do not have mitochondria!
​

Then again, as @helensaramay says it might be related to insulin -- not really sure as I am T2.

 

[maryrachel]

Thanks Helen, Thanks Ziggy. Do you think it could happen after only a couple of days though? Perhaps rhetorical for you Ziggy as you have googled but someone else might know?

 

[Kristin251]

My bg goes up with exercise. Even washing the floors. Sometimes it goes a tad lower with just anslow walk an hour after I take insulin but anything other than that I go up and don't come back down

 

[Guzzler]

I do not know about insulin but I know my bg levels dropped dramatically in the first week of low carbing.

 

[Rianne]

Hi Maryrachel,

I'd like to share my experencience and love to further follow yours, because I recognize your story. I've started low carb about 5 weeks ago. So far I eat approx. 25 grams of net carbs and that mostly is under 50 grams of total carbs. I have similar experiences with my basal insulin/bg's. Before lowering the carbs, I used to have to lower my basal insulin 2 hours in advance of physical activity. For brisk walking for lets say 2 hours or more, I lowered it to 10%. For housecleaning or gardening, I lowered it to 50%. I still have not found the correct levels for my new diet yet, but I do experience that I need to lower basal much less. I seems to come closer to 40 or 50% for brisk walking and 70 or 80% for the other activities. I have been thinking that, when I used higher boluses before meals, the boluses would still pretty much effect the lowering of bg because of physical activities. With no or much lower boluses for meals, maybe the real effect of the acitivites on basal level appears.
My writing of course is not an anwer to your question, but I hope the recognition supports you a bit.
Good luck!

Greetings,
Rianne

 

[Rianne]

Hi @maryrachel,

I am not a T1, so can't comment on the insulin.

However, I might be able to help with your other question -- just happen to have googled it a few hours earlier.

The reason that your blood sugars might not have dropped dramatically during your rigorous walk might be adaptive glucose sparing. This means that on a ketogenic or low carb diet, your muscles prefer to use fat over glucose in order to spare glucose for essential processes such as creating red blood cells or for the brain.

Here is an excellent explanation, I read on one of the sites I found:

Why would your peripheral tissues be primed and adpated to remove glucose from blood if… there isn’t any glucose in there to speak of? No, those tissues adapt. Glucose transporters fold back inside the cell from the surface, instead the cell becomes more adept at taking in fat which is circulating. You literally become adapted to sparing glucose for use by those cells which absolutely require it. Some brain cells, red blood cells and testes require glucose because they do not have mitochondria!
​

Then again, as @helensaramay says it might be related to insulin -- not really sure as I am T2.

Hi Ziggy_w,

I find the text you copied very interesting. Would you be willing to send the link to that site so I can read more?
Thanks!

Greetings,
Rianne

 

[maryrachel]

Hi Maryrachel,

I'd like to share my experencience and love to further follow yours, because I recognize your story. I've started low carb about 5 weeks ago. So far I eat approx. 25 grams of net carbs and that mostly is under 50 grams of total carbs. I have similar experiences with my basal insulin/bg's. Before lowering the carbs, I used to have to lower my basal insulin 2 hours in advance of physical activity. For brisk walking for lets say 2 hours or more, I lowered it to 10%. For housecleaning or gardening, I lowered it to 50%. I still have not found the correct levels for my new diet yet, but I do experience that I need to lower basal much less. I seems to come closer to 40 or 50% for brisk walking and 70 or 80% for the other activities. I have been thinking that, when I used higher boluses before meals, the boluses would still pretty much effect the lowering of bg because of physical activities. With no or much lower boluses for meals, maybe the real effect of the acitivites on basal level appears.
My writing of course is not an anwer to your question, but I hope the recognition supports you a bit.
Good luck!

Greetings,
Rianne

Hi Rianne. Thanks for the reply. And it does answer my question as I think you might be right. It is the Bolus that was causing the fluctuations probably and now taking much less bolus and probably a lot to do with not eating carbs that behave randomly or variably if my Basal is OK then I am not dipping as much as I was. Thanks

 

[maryrachel]

Hi @maryrachel,

I am not a T1, so can't comment on the insulin.

However, I might be able to help with your other question -- just happen to have googled it a few hours earlier.

The reason that your blood sugars might not have dropped dramatically during your rigorous walk might be adaptive glucose sparing. This means that on a ketogenic or low carb diet, your muscles prefer to use fat over glucose in order to spare glucose for essential processes such as creating red blood cells or for the brain.

Here is an excellent explanation, I read on one of the sites I found:

Why would your peripheral tissues be primed and adpated to remove glucose from blood if… there isn’t any glucose in there to speak of? No, those tissues adapt. Glucose transporters fold back inside the cell from the surface, instead the cell becomes more adept at taking in fat which is circulating. You literally become adapted to sparing glucose for use by those cells which absolutely require it. Some brain cells, red blood cells and testes require glucose because they do not have mitochondria!
​

Then again, as @helensaramay says it might be related to insulin -- not really sure as I am T2.

Hi Ziggy. I should have asked for a link also. Would you mind sharing with both Rianne and me?

 

[ziggy_w]

Hi @maryrachel, hi @Rianne,

Sorry for not getting back earlier -- I hadn't kept track of this thread.

Maryrachel, I don't think you would get an adaptive glucose sparing response after a few days. I would think this develops after a number of months of low-carbing.

Here are some cites:

https://thebloodsugardiet.com/forum...periance-would-be-greatly-appreciated-please/
https://www.headsuphealth.com/blog/self-tracking/blood-sugar-test/
http://fatburningman.com/richard-ni...-week-why-flour-is-fattening-the-potato-hack/

Just search for the term "adaptive glucose sparing" on the websites to get to the part that is relevant. The last website list a number of other websites that deal with the phenomenon, albeit using the term physiological insulin resistance. Many seem to argue, however, that the term "adaptive glucose sparing" is more appropriate.

Here are the sources mentioned on the last website:

http://ketopia.com/physiological-insulin-resistance/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randle_cycle
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2007/10/physiological-insulin-resistance.html

 

[Rianne]

Hi @maryrachel, hi @Rianne,

Sorry for not getting back earlier -- I hadn't kept track of this thread.

Maryrachel, I don't think you would get an adaptive glucose sparing response after a few days. I would think this develops after a number of months of low-carbing.

Here are some cites:

https://thebloodsugardiet.com/forum...periance-would-be-greatly-appreciated-please/
https://www.headsuphealth.com/blog/self-tracking/blood-sugar-test/
http://fatburningman.com/richard-ni...-week-why-flour-is-fattening-the-potato-hack/

Just search for the term "adaptive glucose sparing" on the websites to get to the part that is relevant. The last website list a number of other websites that deal with the phenomenon, albeit using the term physiological insulin resistance. Many seem to argue, however, that the term "adaptive glucose sparing" is more appropriate.

Here are the sources mentioned on the last website:

http://ketopia.com/physiological-insulin-resistance/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randle_cycle
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2007/10/physiological-insulin-resistance.html

Many thanks, Ziggy_w!

 

[DCUKMod]

@maryrachel , I'm going to tag @tim2000s in here as I know he has experimented with a range of dietary approaches over the time I have been reading here, and @Juicyj , who is also a long-standing T1.

 

[tim2000s]

@maryrachel it's a fairly straightforward process that goes on, but there's a clear difference between "Low carb" and "Very Low Carb".

In the former, you're tending to eat smaller amounts of carbs (usually no more than about 80g per day), so the amount of bolus insulin you need per meal drops. Typically, basal doesn't change that much.

It's worth bearing in mind that injected insulin in the body has a half life of around 57 minutes, so if you eat regular amounts of carbs, so for example, a meal containing 70g that requires 7 units of insulin, 3 hours after eating your still have around 1.75units of insulin still on board. We know that in a normal metabolic state, aerobic exercise and activity (walking, moderate running, etc) causes our muscles to consume glucose more effectively by activating specific transporters. These are the same as those activated by insulin, so having both the exercise and the remainder of a bolus on board causes the muscles to consume additional glucose and drop blood glucose levels, which is why we usually lower basals before exercising, in order to reduce the effects of insulin in activating those transporters.

If you are eating fewer carbs, then your active insulin after three hours is much lower (based on our previous calculation, 25g carbs = 2.5u, which leads to 0.65u available at 3 hours, or roughly a third) meaning that you don't find that it is activating as many glucose transporters, or in other words, @helensaramay is correct.

When very low carb, i.e. below the ketogenic threshold, where your body has converted to using fats as the primary energy source, then the body actively reduces its sensitivity to glucose and reduces the number of available glucose transporters in order to burn fat in preference to carbs, as per the quote from @ziggy_w, so you are operating in a different metabolic state.

Given that you've only been lower carb for a few days, and that you are not at a carb level that is normally ketogenic for the vast majority of the population, the likelihood is that it is the first mechanism that is having an effect.

 

[maryrachel]

@maryrachel it's a fairly straightforward process that goes on, but there's a clear difference between "Low carb" and "Very Low Carb".

In the former, you're tending to eat smaller amounts of carbs (usually no more than about 80g per day), so the amount of bolus insulin you need per meal drops. Typically, basal doesn't change that much.

It's worth bearing in mind that injected insulin in the body has a half life of around 57 minutes, so if you eat regular amounts of carbs, so for example, a meal containing 70g that requires 7 units of insulin, 3 hours after eating your still have around 1.75units of insulin still on board. We know that in a normal metabolic state, aerobic exercise and activity (walking, moderate running, etc) causes our muscles to consume glucose more effectively by activating specific transporters. These are the same as those activated by insulin, so having both the exercise and the remainder of a bolus on board causes the muscles to consume additional glucose and drop blood glucose levels, which is why we usually lower basals before exercising, in order to reduce the effects of insulin in activating those transporters.

If you are eating fewer carbs, then your active insulin after three hours is much lower (based on our previous calculation, 25g carbs = 2.5u, which leads to 0.65u available at 3 hours, or roughly a third) meaning that you don't find that it is activating as many glucose transporters, or in other words, @helensaramay is correct.

When very low carb, i.e. below the ketogenic threshold, where your body has converted to using fats as the primary energy source, then the body actively reduces its sensitivity to glucose and reduces the number of available glucose transporters in order to burn fat in preference to carbs, as per the quote from @ziggy_w, so you are operating in a different metabolic state.

Given that you've only been lower carb for a few days, and that you are not at a carb level that is normally ketogenic for the vast majority of the population, the likelihood is that it is the first mechanism that is having an effect.

@maryrachel it's a fairly straightforward process that goes on, but there's a clear difference between "Low carb" and "Very Low Carb".

In the former, you're tending to eat smaller amounts of carbs (usually no more than about 80g per day), so the amount of bolus insulin you need per meal drops. Typically, basal doesn't change that much.

It's worth bearing in mind that injected insulin in the body has a half life of around 57 minutes, so if you eat regular amounts of carbs, so for example, a meal containing 70g that requires 7 units of insulin, 3 hours after eating your still have around 1.75units of insulin still on board. We know that in a normal metabolic state, aerobic exercise and activity (walking, moderate running, etc) causes our muscles to consume glucose more effectively by activating specific transporters. These are the same as those activated by insulin, so having both the exercise and the remainder of a bolus on board causes the muscles to consume additional glucose and drop blood glucose levels, which is why we usually lower basals before exercising, in order to reduce the effects of insulin in activating those transporters.

If you are eating fewer carbs, then your active insulin after three hours is much lower (based on our previous calculation, 25g carbs = 2.5u, which leads to 0.65u available at 3 hours, or roughly a third) meaning that you don't find that it is activating as many glucose transporters, or in other words, @helensaramay is correct.

When very low carb, i.e. below the ketogenic threshold, where your body has converted to using fats as the primary energy source, then the body actively reduces its sensitivity to glucose and reduces the number of available glucose transporters in order to burn fat in preference to carbs, as per the quote from @ziggy_w, so you are operating in a different metabolic state.

Given that you've only been lower carb for a few days, and that you are not at a carb level that is normally ketogenic for the vast majority of the population, the likelihood is that it is the first mechanism that is having an effect.

Thanks Tim2000s this is very informative and makes sense. I didn't think it could be keto effect so new in and with still approx. 70g carbs. I am working my way into it gently this time as I really had a bad time last time. So bad I cannot remember any positives from the diet although pretty sure my control got better.

 

[fletchweb]

So sorry if there is already loads of info you have all discussed out there around this and apologies for the title to the post. I am Type 1 about 30 years. Tried low carbing 15 years ago and had really bad stomach issues. Thinking maybe too much dairy now??? anyway - after 15 years of semi denial and excuses I am back on the carb wagon - or starting to. My question is when you reduce carbs your body uses energy differently right? So usually I manage my diabetes quite well on previous high carb diet by testing 8-10 times a day and carb counting. If I do any exercise I have to reduce my insulin by at least 20% 2 hours before. However - yesterday after a few days low carb (50-70g - is low carb for me) I went for a very vigorous walk. I was so convinced that I would drop like a stone but I didn't? How is that? What is low carbing doing to even it out? My theory is that if I eat carbs my body uses them first - we all know this. But it then loses the ability or knowledge to use other reserves instantly. But if you don't eat much cho your body uses first glycogen and then fat so because my body had no instant reserves it? Help anyone?

It could be one of those things where depending on the body low carbing has different results. Just speculation on my part but what I find - if I'm low carbing and then do some form of exercise - could be cycling, splitting and stacking wood, paddling for hours etc I have to completely skip shots otherwise I hypo.

I could adjust my basil to avoid this but half the time I don;t plan to exercise so it's too late to adjust the basil.

One thing I never thought about before and thanks for mentioning it - your dairy comment - I have next to no dairy other than the little bit of skim milk I put in my Tea or Coffee. I wonder how much of a factor that plays.

One thing I like about low carbing - is when you treat yourself to a lunch of carbs - nothing like a good plate of chips with gravy - as a treat from time to time

 

[CherryAA]

I am actively trying to lower the level of circulating insulin on my body . This then gets reflected in my fasting insulin which was 20.3 in March and 8.3 in August .
In a study I took part I if looks like the level of fasting insulin is to me correlates with time on LCHF taking about two years to get to optimal of below 6 for some participants .

One thing I have noticed is that whereas initially if my blood glucose level was high i could bring it down quickly with exercise. It makes much less difference now
I guess the corollary of that might be for T1 low carbing reduces input of insulin required and therefore as levels go down so does need to deal with it for exercise ?

 

[DCUKMod]

I am actively trying to lower the level of circulating insulin on my body . This then gets reflected in my fasting insulin which was 20.3 in March and 8.3 in August .
In a study I took part I if looks like the level of fasting insulin is to me correlates with time on LCHF taking about two years to get to optimal of below 6 for some participants .

One thing I have noticed is that whereas initially if my blood glucose level was high i could bring it down quickly with exercise. It makes much less difference now
I guess the corollary of that might be for T1 low carbing reduces input of insulin required and therefore as levels go down so does need to deal with it for exercise ?

Cherry - I appreciate how happy you are with your own experiments, but please do bear in mind that maryrachel's functioning physiologiy, and what she has to do to mimic a functioning pancreas is quite complex. is somewhat different to our own. In my view, as T2s, we have no idea how lucky we are.

I'm not sure that talking about reducing naturally circulating insulin is all that moment. It strikes me as more critical maryrachel get to grips with the real ground work for managing her insulin/lifestyle before experimenting with too many further changes.

 

[CherryAA]

Apologies @DCUKMod.

Maru rachel asked specifically a question of why did low carbing followed by exercising did not result in her insulin levels dropping like a stone as they had done in the past when she was not low carbing .

I responded that with her own low carbing her own insulin levels would be going down( because inevitably she will be injecting less as there are less carbs in her diet. )

I then stated that for me exercise had a much greater effect in bringing my blood glucose down, when my fasting insulin was 20, than it does now when it is 8 . Hence I thought that information was completely responsive to the question can anyone help me understand why she is experiencing this particular phenomena at this time.

I am not sure why you think that particular response was non responsive or unhelpful?