Low carb dieting not working

[srm100841]

I joined the forum during this week and was interested in the discussions concerning low carb diets.

I'm Type 2 and was firstly diagnosed in 2002. From the outset my BG readings have been high although I've followed my clinic's dietary advice pretty religiously. At no stage have I had a reading below 4.5. My average readings are say 11 pre Breakfast, 12 pre Lunch and 9 pre Dinner. These averages have fluctuated over the years but not significantly. Also the profile of the levels has remained much the same. Pre Dinner is always the lowest, pre Breakfast next and pre Lunch the highest.

I've noticed that the levels often increase following exercise even though I leave a 2 hour gap before testing. Recently I've carried our extra tests 1 hour and 2 hours after eating. In both instances my readings have more or less mirrored those which I took before eating although the 1 hour after eating test is often marginally lower.

For the last 3 days I've pursued a low carb diet of 60 carbs a day or thereabouts. This has had no effect whatsoever on my readings which I found very disappointing.

Does anyone have any ideas why my profile of readings should follow the pattern I've described and is there anything obvious which I am missing to bring my levels down?

Steve

 

[cugila]

Can you give us an example of a typical daily food intake at all of your meals ? We may be able to give some better advice.

 

[srm100841]

Hello again Cugila.

My Wednesday intake was:

- for breakfast at 9 am 1 boiled egg, 1/2 apple and 2 cups of tea.

- at 11am 1 small water biscuit, a sliver of cheese and a cup of white coffee.

- for lunch at 1pm 2 sausages, 3 rashers of dry cure bacon, a tablespoon of baked beans, 1/4 apple and a cup of tea.

- during the afternoon 2 cups of tea and a small handfull of salted cashew nuts.

- pre dinner 2 cans of regular beer.

- for dinner at 6.30pm chicken casserole, a couple of slices of carrot, a dessert spoonful of onion and leek plus 2 florets of broccoli about the size of a walnut.

- for supper at 9pm 1 small water biscuit, a small slice of cooked ham and a sliver of cheese.

- a mug of milk before bed at 10.30pm

According to my carbohydrate counting this all totalled 70.

My readings during the day were pre breakfast 11.9, pre lunch 13.8 and pre dinner 9.

Steve

 

[cugila]

Hi Steve.

There is nothing there that really catches the eye other than perhaps the sausages and baked beans.
However, I wouldn't expect the readings to be that high pre-meals ? The beer should also go for a while till you can find out why your levels are so high.

What are the pre bedtime readings ?
Do you take your fasting readings FIRST thing in the morning when you awake ?

You need to also take readings at least 2 hrs after meals and see what the readings are then.
What medications are you on, including anything not Diabetic related.
Pm me if you don't want to post here.

 

[hanadr]

Those meal plans are definitely reduced carb, but I would need to go lower. Perhaps you do too.
Also, You might need to try for longer.Your numbers are MUCH too high
Keep trying
Good Luck with it
Hana

 

[veggienft]

.
Try eliminating gluten ......wheat, rye, barley and oats. Food and drink would include (exclude) beer and anything made with flour, including almost all processed food and processed meat.

Gluten includes the opioid A5. A5 mimics endorphin, plugs into pancreas islet nerves, and makes the pancreas continuously produce insulin. Gluten A5's opioid action also addicts the central nervous system to sugar.

Gluten includes the protein WGA. WGA mimics insulin without doing the job of insulin. It clogs up cell insulin receptors without transporting glucose into cells.

Gluten proteins could also be causing gut permeability and eliciting autoimmune reactions against circulatory cells, nerve channels and other tissue.
..

 

[scoobydazz]

Hi Steve,

Do me a favour, it may hurt doing this but please try it. Have a vegetarian diet for a month eating only pure veg (steamed if you can) salads and fruit. Dont over do the fruit and stay away from grapes. Dont leave out boiled and baked potatos though !!

Cheers

D

Ps tomatoes count as fruit this way so count it as part of your 5 a day !!!

 

[cugila]

Dont leave out boiled and baked potatos though

Really ??? :shock:

Boiled New Potato............17.8g carbs per 100g weight.
Baked Potato.................31.7g carbs per 100g weight.

Not really ideal if you are low carbing. As this is the low carb area of the forum.....you might need a tin helmet soon. :lol:

 

[scoobydazz]

Having a very small amount of boiled potatos is fine, Ive been doing this all my life as im a strict vegetarian and works wonders being diabetic. My diabetic nurses also agree with this.

 

[cugila]

YOU may find it works fine....I don't and neither do many others on here. Potato of any sort raises my Bg levels to unacceptable levels.

As for the Nurses advice, well it may be OK for you but we (low/reduced carbers) don't always agree with the mainstream advice. Each to their own.

 

[Spiral]

Hi Steve,

Do me a favour, it may hurt doing this but please try it. Have a vegetarian diet for a month eating only pure veg (steamed if you can) salads and fruit. Dont over do the fruit and stay away from grapes. Dont leave out boiled and baked potatos though !!

Cheers

D

Ps tomatoes count as fruit this way so count it as part of your 5 a day !!!

Having a very small amount of boiled potatos is fine, Ive been doing this all my life as im a strict vegetarian and works wonders being diabetic. My diabetic nurses also agree with this.

I'm also a strict (lacto ovo) vegetarian and I low carb on an absolute max on 50 carbs a day, usually lower. Since my T2 diagnosis in February I have reviewed the stuff I eat and realised what a rubbish diet I used to have before I dropped starchy carbohydrate. Since I made the changes to my diets loads of niggly little problems have gone away and I have more energy and look much healthier - you can see it in my skin.

What nutrients does a potato give a vegetarian?

Delicious as vegetables are, you suggest eating only vegetables, what about protien and fat? Where do you get your protien and fat?

What impact does following this diet have on your blood sugar? Can you give more info about what you eat and what you blood sugars are over the day, before and after meals?

What is the basis of the dietary recomendations you have suggested?

Thanks.

 

[fergus]

Having a very small amount of boiled potatos is fine

Very dangerous advice scoobydazz. For the vast majority of us, a cooked starch like this will raise blood sugar as high and as quickly as table sugar.
As a former vegetarian myself, I don't think that's the answer either. You might be able to subsist on a diet predominantly of low carb green veg, nuts, and some protein sources but many of the veggie staples are typically very starchy foods. Pasta, rice, bread and, yes, potatoes are the very things best avoided by anyone seeking to control their blood sugar.

fergus

 

[Spiral]

Those meal plans are definitely reduced carb, but I would need to go lower. Perhaps you do too.
Also, You might need to try for longer.Your numbers are MUCH too high
Keep trying
Good Luck with it
Hana

I'd agree with Hana, give it more time and consider further reducing your carbs. If I go over 50 my numbers are out the next day. It took about 3 days of reduced/lowered carbs to have an obvious impact on my readngs, but then they fell :shock: :mrgreen:

You ask if you have missed anything, insulin resistance may be a factor for you :? Do you have weight to lose? I have had a lot of insulin resistance because I have a lot of weight to lose. If this is the case for you, you may have to take even more aggressive action now and may be able to ease off a bit as the weight drops and the insulin resistance goes lower.

Also, managing the numbers over the course of the day may help, it may help if you research "dawn phenomenon" on these boards there have been a fair few threads about it. My morning numbers are the worst and the reason why I have recently started to take metformin. Your numbers seem to improve later in the day and it may be that not eating anything even vaguely starchy in the morning may be the way to go to get them down.

Also, exercise helps as it wakes up insulin receptors, so don't worry too much about the rise after excercise - I have had some of my lowes and highest readngs after excercise. It is good for long term management.

The other thing is don't leave it too long between meals or your liver will compensate if it thinks you are in danger of starving to death by dumping glucose in to your bloodstream - this will make the readings go up. What kind of gap do you have between meals? I find I can go about 3 hours before I need to eat. I get from breakfast at 9 to lunch somehwere between 12 to 1.30 without a snack, but I need something mid-late afternoon otherwise I have a liverdump because I don't usually have my evening meal until after 7 This may be an issue for you if you have only just started. I think it is about timing as well as what you eat.

As far as snacks go try 30g of almonds or macadamia nuts or other nuts over the biscuits (but not cashews too carby) If you do need a biscuit, I find oats or rye have the least impact on my blood sugar (so long as not in the morning) and Nairns oatcakes don't have any flour in them.

 

[srm100841]

Thanks for all the advice. One thing I've learnt is that there isn't a 'one size fits all' solution to lowering BG levels.

Dealing with the replies then I don't think that I can maintain a meat/fish free diet for any length of time. I'm not a vegetable lover and tend to avoid nuts as well. This will certainly limit what I might eat if I exclude meat and fish as well. I've never been a lover of potatoes either which is helpful but I do like rice and pasta. Largely though I've excluded these from my diet as well although I did have 2 tbsp of rice yesterday.

Exercise is an issue. I guess that I don't have enough. I do exercise every day but this tends to be in short, sharp spells. I will address this issue and try longer and more gentle pursuits.

I took a reading yesterday just before dinner at 7pm. The result was 9.5. When I did a reading just before bed the level had risen to 12. I quite expected a rise but not necessarily to that level. I did abuse the diet I must admit but partly this was a deliberate decision to experiment. I ate a very small portion of chicken madras, 2 tbsps rice and half a paratha. I also had a can of beer and a brandy and soda. For supper I had a slice of corned beef, piece of cheese and 2 water biscuits (Carrs) which are very small. I also had a glass of milk.

My carb count for the day was 90.

Tonight I will replace the milk with tea and see if that makes any difference. I'll change again tomorrow by excluding the alcohol and then review the situation.

The explanation of why my morning reading might be high was very interesting.

I'm getting increasingly concerned that I can't bring down my levels so am game to experiment further.

Thank you all for you input.

Steve

 

[Spiral]

Steve, making dietary changes is hard work.

If you don't like what you are eating you won't stick to it. You need to find something you can stick to. Any reduction in your numbers is good, but thoses levels of yours are toxic. You need to decide what you are aiming at have some long term goals. All along, my next goal has been to have a slightly better reading than last time at the tests my GP has ordered and I'm aiming for the 5% club. The gaps between the GP tests gave me some time to make a few changes.

I'd say you are not going low enough. I'm hoping that once I have lost more of the insulin resistance I may occasionally be able to reintroduce some of the things that could be on the no-go list at the moment. But you need to me much stricter to start with, which is where you are now.

I made my dietary changes in several steps in the days before I was testing. I worked really hard and thought that I'd done enough at each stage (and that maybe I was only a little bit diabetic :roll: ) to get really good numbers that would take me out of the toxic range.

Having said that, I expected my T2 diagnosis because of my history, and as soon as I'd had the first blood test I stoped eating anything with added sugar and food commonly accepted as junk, although I lapsed fairly frequently but significanly reduced my junk intake. I also introduced fresh and raw. This reduced the next 2 fasting tests each time, but by nowhere as much as I though it would.

I started looking for a diet and found the glyceamic index and adopted those principles for a while. my GP nodded happily when I told him I was going low GI. But again, it didn't give me the results I wanted, the drop just wasn't enough - my HbA1c dropped from 7.8 to 7 and while I was pleased I wanted better results.

I thought it was going to be a bit of a challenge to low carb, there was a question as to whether or not I'd be able to do it as a vegetarian, as many vegetarian diets are high on carbs :? I think I have done it faily succesfully - I suspect I'd be in the 5% club now but for the timing of my last HbA1c which was just after a bit of a major holiday lapse :roll: it is now down to 6%

Is weight an issue for you? it is for me. This may be the big issue with your numbers.

There may be some advantage inbeing really aggressive and really sticking to a very low carb diet for a week to see if it makes a differnece for you then reintroducing things. I think your results are too high for you to be able to see much change and that you are fiddling around too much to see the impact of what you are doing - this is what I did in the first few days :roll:

Take a look at http://www.bloodsugar101.com it is written by and American T2. It was the most helpful and hopefull and informative information I found before I joined in here. The information is well researched and well written, and now has British readings as well as the American ones, which makes it easier to read.

There are some things that I know will give me very good readings - for example a leafy green salad with avocado and a protien source means my blood sugar barely moves after I have eaten. Tofu has the same effect. Finding a few things like that help with the motivation

 

[Lizzie7]

Hi Steve,

Now first off I'm really new to this and I don't know half as much as the guys on here. I am a low carb pretty-much vegan and have had great results with following that plan.

However, I had a couple of days recently of double figure numbers (usually I'm in the 4s and 5s and pre-meal always between 3.9 and 5.2 now). Scared the life out of me and I turned up at the diabetic clinic demanding to see the endocrinologist

He did see me and after a long discussion and examination of my bg records he advised that stress and not eating enough was the problem. Stress hormones were raising my bg and my body was also creating its own glucose. I was sceptical but increased the amount I ate anyway - green veggies, certain types of nuts, berries and some pulses and chilled out a bit. My numbers went right back to 4s and 5s by the next evening.

Now everyone is different but you do need to ensure your calorie intake is high enough and that you avoid stress as much as possible or your body might undo your good work!

x

 

[srm100841]

As suggested I tried a pre lunch level check which was 11 and a post lunch check 1 hour later which was 11.8. My lunch had less than 8 carbs. The single item which contained most carbs was 1/4 apple which I counted as 3.81 carbs.

My breakfast and mid morning snack had 14.6 carbs. Thus halfway through the eating day I've had 22 carbs which I wouldn't have thought to have been too high. Yet my BG levels still remain much too high. I will persevere with the low carb approach though in the hope that I can drive my levels downward.

Someone asked earlier about my weight. I am overweight but not substantially so. My height is about 5'9" and my weight about 12 1/2 stone. Ideally I would like to be about 2 stone lighter. This wish is to comfortable wear old suits as well as for health reasons.

When I was originally diagnosed I immediately eliminated everything which obviously contained sugar other than fruit and vegetables. My clinic advised that I should eat the normal '5 a day' which I have always done. Now with the low carb approach, I'm not sure what to eat and what to avoid. All fruit and vegetables seem to be very high in carbs. Notwithstanding, I see that many recommended low carb diets still include lots of vegetables and I notice there is a vegetarian and a vegan in the forum. What do you eat? Also I noticed a recommended meal on one of the websites to which a link was provided, contained an avocado which alone would use up over 35 carbs in one meal!

I've taken extra tests after meals over the past week or so and it seems that my spikes are barely higher than my pre-food readings. Thus I'm unable to get a handle on any 'villains' in my diet. My one suspect late at night is my mug of milk. I'm changing to tea tonight to see if this affects my morning reading. Also I'll miss my treasured evening can of beer.

On the positive side I intend to increase my exercise which might help reduce my weight as well as bring its own benefit.

I do appreciate all the replies. I've had 7 years of being unable to discuss my diabetic problem in detail although I've had many years of knowledge of the problems since I come from a long line of sufferers. Moreover many of my in-laws are also diabetic. My father injected 4 times daily and my brother in law does likewise. Both of them suffered periodically from hypos. As I've said earlier, my levels don't suggest that I'm likely to suffer similarly. However I do get stressed about how high my levels are.

Steve

 

[NickW]

Hi Steve,

As a few people have already mentioned, everyone is different and it sounds to me like you need to drastically reduce the carbs even further, at least for a period. The bloods you're getting are so high that they indicate quite severe insulin resistance / hyperinsulinemia. Cutting back gradually may work, or going "cold turkey" may work, it depends on the person - I made an instant switch to low-carb paleo eating and found it fine, other people might find it better to move over the course of a few weeks. Either way, if it were me I'd be aiming to try a spell of very low carbs - basically as little as you can eat. I'm not saying you need to do this forever, but an initial spell of a few weeks may help get the bloods down to something more manageable, and you can then experiment to find out what you can tolerate.

If it were me, I would immediately ditch all fruit, and stop eating the water biscuits, drinking beer and milk etc. The only carbs I'd eat would be from leafy vegetables - so you're talking about things like salad leaves, broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, kale, courgettes etc. - any non-dense veg. I'd be getting the bulk of my calories from meat, fish, eggs and fats - for preference I'd be eating grass-fed meats but if that's not an option then any lean cut will do.

This would mean that typical meals will be things like scrambled eggs with meat for breakfast; lots of salads with oily dressings (home made if possible to avoid any added sugar - just olive oil and a dash of balsamic or white wine vinegar is lovely); lots of meat or fish with steamed vegetables etc.

I'd also increase my exercise if at all possible. The ideal would be a mixture of weights and lower-intensity stuff (walking, cycling etc.), both of which will help improve your insulin sensitivity.

I'd also give it time to have an effect; you won't magically see good control in a day. Stick with it for a few weeks at least.

Good luck!

 

[srm100841]

Thanks Nick. I'm off to the shops now to replenish my stores. Leafy vegetables it will be. I've got plenty of meat, fish and eggs. I've also got a good sized wedge of cheese which I guess will do no harm.

Steve

 

[Spiral]

Steve, if I ate the number of carbs you ate my blood sugar would be up there with yours, I know this becasue I have occasional lapses

We all have differnt responses to the food we eat and the only way to know how we respond is to try something and test. Portion size may also be significant.

I don't know where that figure you got for an avocado came :shock: :shock: :shock: the official figure I have seen for 100g of avocado is around 6g

But all carbs are not equal...

Some carbs are indigestible - chick peas and kidney beans are around 33g per 100g, but a decent portion of humus (a lunch time regular for me) or a chilli does not send me up unacceptably high because the carbs are indigestible. Also, if the vegetables are raw or cooked makes a difference. Cooking seems to make the indigestibe carbs in a vegetable a lot more digestibe :shock: and I only eat carrot raw these days.

The other thing that occurs to me is about the quantity of fat in your diet. How much fat do you eat? Some poeple make the mistake of low carb/low fat. When you low carb you can eat higher quantities of fat, it is the fat that fills you up and makes you feel full for longer. It also slows down the speed with which the carbs turn to glucose and then that hits your system.

As far as vegetarian meals go, this is typical food for me

breakfast - although I have a lot of problems with my high morning readings whatever I do :?
2 dessert spoonfuls of Lidl greek yoghurt, generous dash of double cream, dst spoonful flaked almonds, small handful of berries (usually rasperries or blueberries)
x2 scrambled eggs with a knob of butter and a dash of double cream
generous portion of fried mushrooms, x5 fried cherry tomato and 1 veggie sausage

lunch
homemade salad with various proportions of raw vegetables (including tomato, spring onion, bell pepper, cucumber, rocket leaves, grated carrot, radish, olives) vinagrette dressing or mayonaise with a protien source such as boiled eggs, feta cheese, brie, dollop of hummus
x3 boiled eggs, chopped up with baby spinach leaves and a spring onion in a mayo dressing, I might also add a few cherruy tomatos
if I forget to make lunch I go to M&S and get a humus dip with vegetable crudities and an individually wrapped piece of cheese

evening meal - loads of variety here
leafy green salad with cherry tomatos, spring onion, cucumber with a mustard vinagrette and a piece of round goats cheese (about 100g) which I grill before putting on top of the salad and then tossing some toasted pecan nuts on top of that.
ratatouille with either grated cheese or poaching a couple of eggs in it
cauliflower cheese, the cheese sauce made of double cream, grated cheese, mustard and egg
veggie chilli the veggies include onion, peppers, mushrooms, courgette etc
ommlette or fritatta - with various green vegetables or mushroom
broccoli with a sauce made from toasted pine nuts in a sauce made from 1/2 lemon with dolccalette cheese melted in it
vegetable curry - various vegetables
cauiflower, mushroom and paneer curry
paneer and spinach
various tofu dishes

snacks
cheese, nuts (not cashew or peanuts), protien shakes, olives, small handful of raspberries, blueberries or strawberries or watermelon

Get a carb counter and look up the carb content of raw vegetables, I think you may be misinformed from one of your comments.

I'm not promoting a vegetarian diet here, I'm just giving you some info about what I eat, although I would't hesitate to recomend it.

Since I went low carb I have never eaten so well and the food is delicious.

Just one othe thing, how much do you drink? Sometimes dehydration can affect your readings, going over the drinks you mention in your inital postings, that isn't a lot and if you are drinking alcohol, that will add to dehydration. I'd recommend trying to drink 6-8 glasses of plain water during the day. If you are drinking more tea and coffee than you mention, the milk in them may be adding to your carb count.