low carb/high fat against Mediterranean diet

Birdwoman said:

Hi
I have been through lots of threads on this forum and have found them very helpful and informative. When I joined here I had already started a LCHF diet but wanted to find out more about it and also look to see what other ideas people had, so I could work out if I was going in the right direction or not. I was diagnosed in August with Pre- diabetes. I have lost nearly a stone and a half, my fasting blood sugar goes up and down and seems to depend on whether I sleep well or not but in general has gone to mostly 102-106 (5.5 - 6) but I would like get it down a bit more. At the moment weight and sugar levels seem to be stuck.

I have just read Michael Mosley's book and he advocates a Mediterranean diet. Has any tried this for getting blood sugar down and does it work? I am rather confused as lots of things he uses in his recipes are the higher carb things like apples, mangos etc. things that I thought you should avoid. His recipes don't seem to use much fat either. Please help!

Click to expand...

IMO the best books on diabetes are "Diabetes Solution" by Dr Bernstein (who is type 1 and writes for types 1&2) and several by Jenny Ruhl, (who is type 2 and writes mainly for type 2s). Dr B is very radical and perfectionist and can be a bit hard to take, especially at the beginning of one's diabetic journey. On the other hand he has written a sort of bible, was diagnosed at the age of 11 and is still well and dynamic at 83, qualified as a doctor in order to understand diabetes better and has treated thousands of patients. JR is over 70 and still in reasonably good shape. She has studied extensively and always quotes chapter and verse to back up any assertion she makes. She too has years of experience interacting with diabetics behind her. You can find an enormous amount of free info. on JR's site http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/ You can read extracts from Dr B's book on his site and watch little videos of the man himself http://www.diabetes-book.com

JR recommends eating very little fruit, Dr B none at all except for rhubarb!

Are you testing just before and 2 hours after meals? This is very important to help you find the flaws (and virtues) in your eating habits.

Moseley's was the first book I read after diagnosis. I then chose the LCHF diet because my A1c was so high and LCHF promised a swift reduction and it certainly delivered. Having said that, I do dip into the recipe book that accompanies the Blood Sugar Diet book as the carb counts are not far off my target.

I completely agree with @Alexandra100. Both are my favorites. I also like the Rosedale diet who explains how over eating protein, mainly in the absense of carbs will raise your bs, insulin and leptin levels. I follow his recommendation do .8g per kg lean body mass

I also do better with Mediterranean fats vs animal fats. So avocado, nuts, olives, olive oil and mayo. I eat lots of fish, poultry and some lean red meats like lamb chops or lean beef. I eat under 20 carbs per day and the fats I eat just until satisfied. I don’t gob them bu tid I don’t have enough I’m hungry.

My motto is vlc, moderate protein and healthy fats to satisfy.

I’ve eaten this way for over 25 years. Through predaibetes, Type 2 and now LADA ( type 1) all with good results.

I am sure I have read that the med diet out performs standard first world diets, and with it's healthy fats and vegetables, fish etc, it would be the life style I would select if I were not doing LCHF. I think the NHS supports the unhealthy definition of Mediterranean diet with pizza, pasta and the like; I think "we" are talking about this version www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/nutrition/healthy-mediterranean-diet/.

My version of LCHF has a lot of cross over with the med diet, as I have the fats in the med diet, lots of fish and a stack of vegetables, peppers and nuts, why not mix the best low carb options in both.

Michael Mosley has always been a bit "meh" in my book.... and the odd thing is I'm not sure why.... bit of a chancer possibly?

Mbaker said:

I am sure I have read that the med diet out performs standard first world diets, and with it's healthy fats and vegetables, fish etc, it would be the life style I would select if I were not doing LCHF. I think the NHS supports the unhealthy definition of Mediterranean diet with pizza, pasta and the like; I think "we" are talking about this version www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/nutrition/healthy-mediterranean-diet/.

My version of LCHF has a lot of cross over with the med diet, as I have the fats in the med diet, lots of fish and a stack of vegetables, peppers and nuts, why not mix the best low carb options in both.

Click to expand...

I think both Mediterranean and Paleo diets allow carbohydrates.

These are generally good diets for the non-diabetic and much better than the average Western diet, but once you are heading towards diabetes than you need to cut out the carbs.

There is a great deal of commonality between LCHF, Paleo and Med. Loads of good healthy foods including meat, fish and vegetables are in all three. However as far as I know only LCHF gets the carbohydrates low enough to become fat adapted, which is really the aim of LCHF.

Volek & Phinney are one of the definitive sources for LCHF and they also wrote the updated version of the Atkins Diet.

So I don't think there is any conflict between the low carbohydrate options in LCHF and Med. They should be interchangeable.

Edit: If the blood sugar diet recommends high sugar fruits and any other high carbohydrate sources then I personally would avoid it. No wonder you are finding it confusing.

the problem i have with 'the mediterranean diet' is that everyone THINKS they know what is is, but then when you ask them, they seem to go blank.

i mean Med Diet = healthy, doesn't it?

there is a lovely visual image i have every time someone mentions the Med Diet, it is a buffet table I saw in Malta, Amazingly gorgeous foods. And yes, there were great, fresh, healthy meat fish veg and salads - of course - but far more than half the display was savoury and sweet carbs, sweet fruit and the most exquisite pastries. Dessert wines. Oh, and some of the meats were very heavily processed.

Birdwoman said:

Thank you everyone for your very clear answers and information, they have all been very helpful in my understanding more about all of this.
Alexandra100, I found very informative and will follow your links. I test sometimes before and after meals but always the same meal, I must do that. When I have tested after meals it is generally when I have been naughty in some way but have been down to 80-85 (4.4 -4.7) within 2 hours.

I try to keep to under 20 carbs a day but find it difficult to know which veggies are best - broccoli and spinach give me really bad nights, cabbage - not too shore about and I'm allergic to peppers, chillies and anything in their family. I will also have a look at the rosedale diet because the protein amounts I am not sure of either.

I have always asked the question too about the Med diet - What is it and where do you find it. I don't know where on the Med do you get veggies like the UK. I can see the fish, that is good, snails - oh no no but an awful lot of Mediterranean people have diabetes, so how does that work?

Thank you all again.

Click to expand...

You could search for the Pioppi Diet. I do not know much about it but it is said to be the 'real' Med diet. Good luck.

Birdwoman said:

Thank you everyone for your very clear answers and information, they have all been very helpful in my understanding more about all of this.
Alexandra100, I found very informative and will follow your links. I test sometimes before and after meals but always the same meal, I must do that. When I have tested after meals it is generally when I have been naughty in some way but have been down to 80-85 (4.4 -4.7) within 2 hours.

I try to keep to under 20 carbs a day but find it difficult to know which veggies are best - broccoli and spinach give me really bad nights, cabbage - not too shore about and I'm allergic to peppers, chillies and anything in their family. I will also have a look at the rosedale diet because the protein amounts I am not sure of either.

I have always asked the question too about the Med diet - What is it and where do you find it. I don't know where on the Med do you get veggies like the UK. I can see the fish, that is good, snails - oh no no but an awful lot of Mediterranean people have diabetes, so how does that work?

Thank you all again.

Click to expand...

If you are down to 4.4-4.7 after 2 hours even when you have "been naughty" (I am full of envy) do you have much of a problem? Is it just your fasting numbers that need improving? Personally, I try not to eat too late at night (ideally not after 6pm) and I often get a low morning fasting number. My problem is more with post prandial numbers in the afternoon and evening.

I see broccoli and spinach give you bad nights. In the past I would never dare eat broccoli, cauliflower or sprouts after lunchtime as they gave me terrible bloating and pain at night, but since lowering the carbs in my diet I can eat them anytime I want as my digestion has improved out of all recognition. The catch is that they are more carborific than many other veg, especially brussels sprouts, so I can't always "afford" to eat them. You can find out the carb content of any food by googling, so I suggest you do that for the veg you like to eat. You will soon build up a list of the lower carb ones. If you try giving yourself an "allowance" of carbs you will be able to see how various foods fit in to that, and how well it works for your post prandial readings. If you prefer to eat as suggested by Michael Moseley, in the same way your meter will soon tell you if you are on the right track.

Again, personally, I know that any kind of "healthy" mediterranean diet won't help my blood sugar because that is how I was eating when I got my A1c 41. I have improved my post prandial bs readings by lowering my carbs, but not enough so I'm still experimenting.

@Birdwoman

Your levels are very good, and the lower they are the harder it is to get them lower still. I have found that over the 4 years since I was diagnosed my levels have "stuck" many times, for months. Then, without any changes to my routine, they suddenly notch downwards, so much so at times that I don't believe them and end up testing and re-testing in case my meter is playing up. Then they stick again. Then after a few more months, they notch downwards again. The reductions are not in a straight line downwards, they are in steps. Difficult to explain, but I hope you can understand what I'm getting at.

I’m a newly diagnosed T2 and I’ve decided to follow low carb.

However I’m always hungry, loss of energy sometimes I could hardly walk, nauseated and very weak.

I’m scared to eat.

Any advice....Please help!

The “Mediterranean diet” is not well defined; some people include lots of carbs in it, other cases like the “The Pioppi Diet” have few carbs. If you like Mediterranean food, then the Pioppi Diet may be a great option for you.

(The Pioppi Diet may be too high carb for someone with full Type2 to reverse their Type2 and become drug-free, but should work for @Birdwoman being prediabetes.)

NewTD2 said:

I’m a newly diagnosed T2 and I’ve decided to follow low carb.

However I’m always hungry, loss of energy sometimes I could hardly walk, nauseated and very weak.

I’m scared to eat.

Any advice....Please help!

Click to expand...

Newly diagnosed is a horrible time. We've all been there! I know just what you mean about feeling scared to eat. Now you have found your way to the Forum things will get better - guaranteed! I've got to rush out now, but some more people will be along soon. You might do better to start a new thread as it would get noticed more readily. Also, there is more traffic on the Forum in the evening, as our American cousins will still be in bed for the moment.

NewTD2 said:

I’m a newly diagnosed T2 and I’ve decided to follow low carb.

However I’m always hungry, loss of energy sometimes I could hardly walk, nauseated and very weak.

I’m scared to eat.

Any advice....Please help!

Click to expand...

could you give us some idea of what meds you are on, if any, and what sort of food you are eating, in what quantities please? Paging @daisy1 for her excellent post on the basics too.

NewTD2 said:

I’m a newly diagnosed T2 and I’ve decided to follow low carb.

However I’m always hungry, loss of energy sometimes I could hardly walk, nauseated and very weak.

I’m scared to eat.

Any advice....Please help!

Click to expand...

I have noticed you asking similar questions on other threads. We all want to help you, but you will get far more replies if you start your own thread. Use this link to get you to the right forum http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/category/newly-diagnosed.39/
then press the big green banner that says "post new thread" and off you go!

The amount of protein you eat is unlikely to be an issue unless you have already reduced your carbs to below 50g a day.