Low carb

[slikwipman]

Yes it is without the necessary information. Again nonsense.

Just because I have different opinions doesn't mean that they are nonsense.

 

[JohnEGreen]

Just because I have different opinions doesn't mean that they are nonsense.

It's not that they are different that makes them nonsense.

This of course is just my opinion and we are all entitled to state our opinions, no matter how nonsensical.

 

[slikwipman]

It's not that they are different that makes them nonsense.

The reason schools have debating teams is so they can learn to debate a subject like adults without it breaking down into insults

 

[Juicyj]

Can members remain civil and respectful please, if argumentative behaviour continues then thread bans will be issued. If any member is unsure of forum rules then please take time to read them carefully, thanks.

 

[JohnEGreen]

It's because of the number of adults in this country that act like children and can't be trusted to look after themselves

You where saying something about insulting language.

This I think will be my last contribution to this thread.

Except to say that the vast majority of people are well able to make good well informed decisions when the information they are given is trustworthy.

 

[Freema]

I would like to see evidence that non-diabetics who are adults routinely get HbA1c's close to 4.5 and what the ranges are for say age groups 25 to 40, 40 to 55 and 55 plus. Every time I watch TV programs where the general public are measured such as Trust Me I'm a Doctor, random tests appear close to pre-diabetic; the only person on TV who I have seen with tests in the 4's and 5's is Kate Quilton, also no one at wife's clinic has far tested in the 4's. There are around 6 million UK residents with HbA1c's between 42 and 46 and around 38% of Americans are pre-diabetic.

What I am saying in a long winded way is that it looks like it going to increasingly become more difficult to attain HbA1c's of 4.5% for an average non-diabetic.

before I was diabetic my level was always 4.5 mmol when measured at random times, well don¨t know what my HbA1c would have been... nobody ever measured that

 

[pleinster]

Doctors know if a person is diabetic as opposed to prediabetic that drugs like metformin WILL work, and the person can go on eating whatever they ate before diagnosis. They see no reason to try something new like low carbs which might or might not work. You and I might not want to take metformin, but not everyone has side effects. Also remember that doctors see patients that include all types. Many may not know how to use a computer -say to look up carb values. Many more may not be able to add them up.Some can't read, at least not easily enough to understand food labels. But they can all take the pills the doctor gives them.

Sorry but this just isn't accurate -
"doctors" (who by the way do not all agree and are not a homogeneous group any more than diabetics are) do not "know...that drugs like metformin WILL work" as in quite number of cases they don't;
The drop in blood sugar levels through metformin alone are good for some but negligible for others;
As for "you and I might not want to take metformin" - as a transplant patient, I was told I would not be offered metformin at all;
The fact that some people cannot read or count to a certain level is hardly a sound reason to ignore everyone who can (certainly the majority where I come from);
You do not need a computer to read how many carbs there are per 100g on a label;
A number of doctors I have seen (including a diabetic consultant) have advised diet change as a first step to see if that negates the need for treatment with medication;
"they may see no reason to try something new" - well good for them; fortunately my doctors are up to speed!
two other points - 1] doctors are not gods - they can/and do make mistakes (not all of the staff we first see are doctors at all)
2] they know best so shut up and take the pills is not an approach those of us who want to be personally informed sand in control are likely to follow (thankfully).

Doctors who knowingly judge their patients in terms of intellectual potential (which they are certainly NOT qualified to do) and do not then advise and treat said patients as individual "clients" (NHS management speak) are not acting in the interests of said PEOPLE. That would be disgraceful, morally reprehensible and legally open to challenge through judicial review. Doctors are not paid to judge what we can comprehend. I am glad none of my doctors are that arrogant or sloppy!

 

[pleinster]

Everyone is missing the crux of the problem. When will the professionals medicals, start to realize Diabetes is a dietary disease. Currently, the approach is wrong. All that has to be done is focus target on the CAUSE the insulin resistance and not the symptom, the high sugars!! everyone testing, 1,2,3,4,6, goodness knows how many times a day, checking fingers, when they are basing the results on ARBITRARY, cut off levels, which are at whim, random, and not 100% backed supported by medical evidence, even the so called experts committee admit, they are arbitrary chosen cut offs. Its appalling, that a medical can admit Low Carb is slowly starting to be accepted, this is out of order, it should be a case, LOW CARB IS THE FIRST RECOMMENDATION.

Regards meters, if one is not eating, bread, pasta, potatoes or rice, and eating generally low carb on top, there is no need to see what foods are giving impact, if your not putting carbs in your numbers should be good simple as that, and if your doing on top intermittent fasting, better still.

Wake up medical professionals, stop taking time to accept low carbs are essential, and the most important guidance, and start to focus target the REAL PROBLEM insulin resistance, the cause, not the sugars. For goodness sake giving insulin to a person who has an insulin resistance problem is crazy.

Mallorca

I agree with most of your comment that the whole area needs to be addresses differently by medical professionals. I agree that diet should be the starting point prior to considering medication and that what the dietary advice is should be based on the individual as far as possible (and that reducing carbohydrates to some extent should probably feature in most of that advice). I do not accept that all testing of the blood sugar by meters is "arbitrary" (ie. "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system".) I apply reason and certainly self testing in very systematic way...and that approach is completely supported by my diabetic consultant and by four doctors (all of whom are very up to date in their training). Not sure what constitutes your "experts committee" but in my view wisdom stagnates if we cling to the commonly held view for fear of considering other theories. further, to say that we don't need to test with meters IF we are avoiding certain carbs - that is pure nonsense! If that was true, those of us who do adhere rigidly to a low carb diet would never have levels to be concerned about - many of us still do...and...things change (eg. the function of organs)! I test way, way less than I did initially but I have no intention of putting my meter away to find a few months later that everything has shot up as can and does happen. My doctor prescribed my meter and wants me to keep testing (despite my levels being mainly in the normal range due to my low carb diet)... and many of us simply gain from feeling/seeing that we are in control. Please let's not let the budget controllers have more ammo to keep meters from diabetics while we are trying to push for NHS recognition/promotion of low carb dieting as a way forward which (at least for many) works.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

"doctors" (who by the way do not all agree and are not a homogeneous group any more than diabetics are) do not "know...that drugs like metformin WILL work" as in quite number of cases they don't;

Even the scientists are aware of this, way back in 2003, Allen Roses, Senior VP for Genetic Research at GlaxoSmithKline, stated that more than 90% of drugs only work in 30-50% of people. Before human clinical trials of any drug, extensive testing is performed on mice because their genetic, biological and behavior characteristics closely resemble those of humans, and many symptoms of human conditions can be replicated in mice. Rats and other animals are also used. There are pros and cons to using rodents.

What some people may not realise is that those mice or rats are specially bred to be exactly the same, it's essential for the experiments being carried out. Having tested animals that are essentially identical they are then tested on humans who are all completely different and even here there is some debate over whether pharmaceutical companies "vet" their human guinea pigs so that they can all be as similar as possible. There's even a conspiracy theory that when statins were tested, people having bad side effects were excluded from the trial data.

As you say pleinster, not all drugs work with all people.

 

[Tannith]

Even the scientists are aware of this, way back in 2003, Allen Roses, Senior VP for Genetic Research at GlaxoSmithKline, stated that more than 90% of drugs only work in 30-50% of people. Before human clinical trials of any drug, extensive testing is performed on mice because their genetic, biological and behavior characteristics closely resemble those of humans, and many symptoms of human conditions can be replicated in mice. Rats and other animals are also used. There are pros and cons to using rodents.

What some people may not realise is that those mice or rats are specially bred to be exactly the same, it's essential for the experiments being carried out. Having tested animals that are essentially identical they are then tested on humans who are all completely different and even here there is some debate over whether pharmaceutical companies "vet" their human guinea pigs so that they can all be as similar as possible. There's even a conspiracy theory that when statins were tested, people having bad side effects were excluded from the trial data.

As you say pleinster, not all drugs work with all people.

I personally would avoid using metformin because of its side effects, and much prefer the low carb method of treating diabetes. Many say their HCPs and doctors don't encourage that, or even discourage it. Why take any notice of them? They can control whether or not they prescribe drugs but only YOU control whether you do low carbs or not.

 

[layladream]

I can see I've been fortunate with my DN! The first time I saw her (week and a half ago) when she told me I was T2 she advised me to come on this website and follow the low carb programme. although she says I don't need to self test as she's put me on metformin. We're due to move soon and I only hope I find as good a nurse as she is. she made diabetes sound manageable.

 

[hooha]

True, but big pharma tells type 2's that we can carry on eating loads of carbs, take the pills, and surrender to this progressive disease we are helpless to control. Which we know, from the thousands of varying experiences on here, is not true.

My dr did not help me at all when I was dx and I wanted to try to fix myself with a] the Newcastle Method and b] the LCHF diet which I very soon discovered on researching the web in desperation and fear. He and She both discouraged me and ' did not recommend' blood meters in case I ' alarmed myself ' Later I found out , against all my previous beliefs, that they probably had a financial motive in NOT helping me fix myself. [ I did get my blood sugars down,and consider myself now a pre pre-diabetic. i.e. If I freak out on booze and carbs I start to get high readings but if I am good - no problems.No medications.

 

[hooha]

Apologies, I was confused. I was looking at a diabetes.co.uk web page which referred to Diabetes UK. I should have read the page a couple of times to understand more fully. Old age you know. LOL

Hello David You said ' There's even a conspiracy theory that when statins were tested, people having bad side effects were excluded from the trial data.'' I researched this on line and I THINK it is NOT a theory, but a fact that this happened and still does happen. Drug companies have huge profits and investments to protect and getting into the market is a priority which can overwhelm sanity.... I remember Thalidomide .

 

[hooha]

Unfortunately, Health Professionals are TRAINED to follow the system, and that is often marketing and politics related. Food Industry markets products, many aimed at health areas issues, if professionals docs and health carers steer patients away from this to EAT LESS of say products they are promoting purchasing, BIG BUSINESS, to eat low carb for example, this is one of the main reasons this can take place.

Secondly, many are not updated in new way of eating habits, techniques, and follow old style of recommendations, which frankly is not acceptable, and those professionals who are still following this method, should not be in a position to recommend until they are 100% uptdate with latest changes that show results.

I suggest you take charge of your own body, the best anyone can do at the end of the day, after all WE only know our bodies better than any doctor or health professional. Look at www.dietdoctor.com. They eloquently explain the benefits of low carb and especially keto eating plans, these are not diet fads, not diets,simply eating REAL FOOD, smaller portions,and different varied foods, low carb with different degrees of low carbs which is fantastic, as there is choice for everyone. Everyone knows what food they can eat, hunger, and lifestyle, and can choose adopt to the keto low carb eating plan as they prefer. How easy and pragmatic is that.

Doctors often say, first diagnosis, take metformin prior to saying change lifestyle. This has myself miffed and could not understand, but seems, this is the easy way for them. They take the view, they are tired of recommending change of lifestyle, people dont do it well 95%, so instead, they say take medication, which is not the way around this. What a Doctor should do
is take responsibility and perhaps threaten a client in a good way, for example, if you do not try to change lifestyle eat low carb exercise more in order, to help yourself, I will have no option but to place you on insulin for example, this is one method to frighten off a patient, to see common sense, to change their lifestyle, if that patient ignores this change of lifestyle advice, then unfortunately, last resort, that person may have to be prescribed medications.

People should listen to what the professionals say, but that does not mean one has to believe it is correct, and more importantly, follow what they say.

I can assure you for my body, low carb and keto low carb is working wonderfully. Wonderful foods, new way of cooking, recipes delicious and by choice, whether I am pre diabetes or not, frankly, I will continue this style of eating plan for the rest of my life its so great, I feel great and surfing better at the ripe young age of 68 better than 1 year ago, more energized, lost 18 kilos in weight, and my pre diabetes figures are all low normal, normal normal and reversed my A1C 23% in 4 months.

How, ignoring what the so called professionals who may not be updated with their information within their professional, and followed my own gut feelings.....

Hope this helps.

Mallorca

I agree. There are human reasons why the drs don't push patients to help themselves, but are just content to prescribe medications . My dr refused to help me, and when I phoned him later to tell him I had '' cured '' my type 2 diabetes using the Newcastle Method and then LCHF he went a bit quiet and then said '' But most people can't do that '' meaning they can't be bothered , so why should he....

 

[hooha]

I agree. There are human reasons why the drs don't push patients to help themselves, but are just content to prescribe medications . My dr refused to help me, and when I phoned him later to tell him I had '' cured '' my type 2 diabetes using the Newcastle Method and then LCHF he went a bit quiet and then said '' But most people can't do that '' meaning they can't be bothered , so why should he....

At least TWO doctors, one a Professor one a surgeon, have run foul of the POLITICS and have been hounded for recommending LCHF. So the problem is still out there and growling away.

 

[hooha]

Big Pharma don't tie people to chairs n feed em biscuits

No the chains they use are more sophisticated - subtle temptations, selling rubbishy carb foods with '' health '' labels, using politics and so on to get meal appeal to the masses. Keep the pharma status quo happily making big money. Avoiding the boat being rocked by the possibility of thousands ,nay millions, of future patients and customers never falling ill ! Just research how the breakfast cereal manufacturers are attempting to dominate the world. [That's not a joke : read the statement on the wall of the Kellogs museum, their '' mission objective '' ]

 

[hooha]

Laying railway track is probably out of the question, but I can manage a game of golf which breaks down to a 5 mile walk interspersed with hitting a ball 100 times. Then doing the shopping and then doing garden stuff.

It would be interesting to look at the occupations of those who took part in the original research.

I understand that it is advisable to cut down on heavy exercise when on an 800 calorie diet, perhaps because the loss of muscle tissue [along with the fat ] might mean a strain on the heart muscle. That being said, very fat persons on 800 calories will actually be living on more like 2,000 calories as their own body fat is metabolised away and provides the extra calories needed .

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

I researched this on line and I THINK it is NOT a theory, but a fact that this happened and still does happen.

I was being kind, it had been a while since I did all my "statin research".

If you look at the names of the people advising NICE what cholesterol levels should be and then check out their own admissions of areas of conflict (who pays the advisors?) there's another surprise, or is it.

 

[Tannith]

I agree. There are human reasons why the drs don't push patients to help themselves, but are just content to prescribe medications . My dr refused to help me, and when I phoned him later to tell him I had '' cured '' my type 2 diabetes using the Newcastle Method and then LCHF he went a bit quiet and then said '' But most people can't do that '' meaning they can't be bothered , so why should he....

Please tell us more about how you did on the ND. How long did you do it for? How much weight did you lose? What proportion of your weight was that? What were your numbers when you finished it compared to at diagnosis?

 

[Spirit01]

Hi. It is pretty basic really...three words - ignorance, arrogance and complacency. The fact that some (very good) medical professionals are completely up to speed with the benefits of a low carb high fat diet in relation to those seeking to get their blood sugar levels under control serves to demonstrate not that others are experts who disagree as a result of superior knowledge but that, sadly, they are doing the minimum and following guidelines that are outmoded or they are not updating their training (where NHS and council budgets can be a factor). I meet regularly with on of a team of four renal specialists since my transplant two years ago (which was NOT due to diabetes) and all of them are pleased with my diet as they can see the results..and they test my blood in all kinds of ways. I see a diabetes consultant too and he is extremely well informed...he tells me that the low carb approach is slowly starting to catch on and he personally thinks it is generally the best way to go for Type 2s at least, particularly if their BS is not ridiculously high, as part of a lifestyle change before trying meds. He is staggered by the sloppy approach of some others, particularly those who tell diabetics to eat plenty of carbs! It is nuts! Many who have been advising a "healthy diet" for so long are reluctant to now have to be seen to be changing their minds...some know very little about diet at all...others simply think they know best regardless. It is not good enough...but meantime, thankfully, we have access to the direct experience of diabetics who do very well indeed on a low carb diet (if they stick to it). One thing to partly explain a slight hesitancy to promote a low carb diet is that if it is adhered to strictly in conjunction with certain meds (such as Gliclazide) it can contribute to blood sugars dropping so low that hypos happen. There needs to be a greater drive from NHS management and in the design of training programmes..and while lack of financial resources is undoubtedly a factor, there is no real excuse for trained staff to issue advice that is completely wrong. I guess, you have to make your own mind up and keep your doctor/nurse informed. I found that keeping records of my meter readings and the food I was eating served me well in convincing any doubters, so I had the minimum of difficulty with medical staff. Also.. self testing meters...they also talk a lot of rubbish about how these are not required (ie. they cost money)...but meters are in my opinion the only way for us to identify the foods which have most impact on us as individuals and to take control and stay in control. Good luck.

ps. I tend to talk until someone hits me!

My practice nurse absolutely refuses a meter & says that I definitely don't need one

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