Newcastle comes to Oldham

[Defren]

I've just got back from shopping in Tesco - bought several 1 litre cartons of Tesco (own brand) unsweetened soya milk. It has only 0.5g of total carbs per 250ml - so 1.5g in three shakes worth. Skimmed milk has 12.5g of carbs in 250ml, so by using the soya milk, I'm saving 36g of carbs per day - and reducing the daily total (inc 200g typical veg) to less than 50g.

I've just had a Tesco banana shake made with soya milk for lunch - tastes great. Approx 172 calories and 14.1 net carbs. I think I can afford a few prawns with my green veg this afternoon - what a treat!!

Andrew

Andrew, to do the Newcastle diet correctly, you can only have green veg with the shakes. Prawns etc are all off limit. I am having nothing at all but shakes. Atkins are made with water so are 168 calories and 3g of carbs. I have three a day and nothing else. You won't get the trial results if you don't stick to the trial criteria.

 

[andrewk]

Errr ........ correctly? The diabetic group in the study came off metformin one week before the start of the trial. They also used Optifast shakes that have different nutritional content to either Tesco (slightly different) or Atkins (very different) shakes.

If I (we) are to have a reasonable chance of replicating the kind of result that the Newcastle diabetic group obtained and keep ourselves healthy in the process, it is important to reasonably replicate the nutritional content of the diet used - but I see no reason why we should not improve over that where we can. The change I have made keeps the calory budget about the same, improves slightly on protein and reduces the total carb content substantially. I see nothing wrong with that.

Andrew

 

[Defren]

Errr ........ correctly? The diabetic group in the study came off metformin one week before the start of the trial. They also used Optifast shakes that have different nutritional content to either Tesco (slightly different) or Atkins (very different) shakes.

If I (we) are to have a reasonable chance of replicating the kind of result that the Newcastle diabetic group obtained and keep ourselves healthy in the process, it is important to reasonably replicate the nutritional content of the diet used - but I see no reason why we should not improve over that where we can. The change I have made keeps the calory budget about the same, improves slightly on protein and reduces the total carb content substantially. I see nothing wrong with that.

Andrew

I am not having a go at you Andrew, not at all. Your choice and I believe strongly in that. I am only saying what the Newcastle diet's format was/is. No, we are not on Optifast, but I believe it is the principle behind the diet, in other words just having shakes and some veg (if you choose to) that made the diet and clinical study what it was. During the clinical trial, it was all shakes and veg and nothing else. The whole point of this (for me) is to replicate the diet and hopefully the end results as closely as possible, so I can't see the point in deviating by adding what was not in the clinical trial. However, as I said it's all personal choice, and we must do what we feel is right for us. Prawns or anything else, are off the menu for me for another 7 weeks and 2 days.

I am not sure as unscientific lay people we can improve on the clinical results, but if you feel this is the right approach for you, then of course you must follow what you believe.

 

[Anonymous]

I just looked up the nutritional content of Optifast. It looks like it shopuldn`t be low carb at all.

Nutritional Information

Calories 160
Protein (g) 14
Carbohydrate (g) 20
Fat (g) 3
Sodium (mg) 230
Potassium (mg) 470
Fiber (g) 0
Vitamins & Minerals 10-40% of RDI
Lactose (g) 8-12

 

[Defren]

I just looked up the nutritional content of Optifast. It looks like it shopuldn`t be low carb at all.

Nutritional Information

Calories 160
Protein (g) 14
Carbohydrate (g) 20
Fat (g) 3
Sodium (mg) 230
Potassium (mg) 470
Fiber (g) 0
Vitamins & Minerals 10-40% of RDI
Lactose (g) 8-12

That can be my small deviation from the clinical trial then. However, I am much happier with low carb, as I know from before starting this, I couldn't tolerate high. I still stay stick to shakes and veg though :silent: (my opinion only).

 

[andrewk]

I am not sure as unscientific lay people we can improve on the clinical results, but if you feel this is the right approach for you, then of course you must follow what you believe.

No, I wasn't suggesting that I could, in any sense, improve on the clinical results - just the diet that I used last week. Reducing the amount of carb in the diet is something that I think we both support - else, I guess you wouldn't be using Atkins shakes. If I were to reduce the carbs in my diet by changing to soya milk, instead of skimmed milk - and make no other change then I'd only be having about 35g of protein per day, which isn't really enough (should be 50-60gm). Adding in a few prawns is just one way of restoring the protein in the diet without exceeding the original calory budget.

The purpose of the Newcastle study was to demonstrate that a hypocaloric diet applied rigidly would reduce pancreatic and hepatic fat and reverse diabetes in a group of individuals who had been diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes relatively recently - not that a diet of a specified design would do that. There is no reason to suppose - and Prof Taylor does not say in available FAQs - that the design of the diet mattered one jot. It could really have been any old diet having the specified calories and sufficient protein, minerals and vitamins. The problem they had, though, was that they couldn't possibly supervise the diabetic study group closely enough to make sure that all the members of the group had the same (any old) diet without specifying precisely what it was to be in terms that could not be misinterpreted. The use of Optifast shakes and a specificed amount of green veg was simply a practical way of doing that.

In the FAQ here ....... http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/assets/documents/Diabetes-Reversaloftype2study.pdf

Professor Taylor says ........

"It is a simple fact that the fat stored in the wrong parts of the body (inside the liver and pancreas) is used up first when the body has to rely upon its own stores of fat to burn. Any pattern of eating which brings about substantial weight loss over a period of time will be effective. Different approaches suit different individuals best."

I really don't think it matters what the diet is or whether you use shakes at all providing that the diet is hypocaloric and of adequate nutrional content to be safe.

Andrew

 

[Defren]

I really don't think it matters what the diet is or whether you use shakes at all providing that the diet is hypocaloric and of adequate nutrional content to be safe.

Andrew

I can't agree with this - sorry. If that was the case, then in a clinical control group, the subjects would have been given a proper food diet opposed to shakes. I am convinced there is something about the nutritional make up of the shakes that makes this diet work. Also if protein as you mentioned was an aide to the diet, then rather than just veg being allowed, portions of protein would have been as well. While I realise protein carries higher calories, a meal reflecting a small amount of protein calories and veg could have been substituted for at least one shake per day.

 

[andrewk]

However, I am much happier with low carb.

I agree completely with you there, which is the main reason why I am making a change to my diet. Tesco shake powder made up with skimmed, coconut, almond or soya milk (I've tried them all), in my opinion, tastes a lot better than the pre-made Atkins shakes (yes, I have tried them) and they are a LOT cheaper - but, when used with skimmed milk, they do have far more carbohydrate than I would like. I am sure that my results will be better if my system is not assaulted by a comparitively high level of carbs - as indeed you have discovered yourself.

Andrew

 

[andrewk]

I can't agree with this - sorry. If that was the case, then in a clinical control group, the subjects would have been given a proper food diet opposed to shakes.

The control group were not given anything at all. They just carried on with their normal lives and ate what they liked. The study report is very clear that there was no dietary intervention for the controls

I am convinced there is something about the nutritional make up of the shakes that makes this diet work.

Professor Taylor says not - follow the link above (or read my quote from it).

Also if protein as you mentioned was an aide to the diet

No, I didn't say that it was an "aide to the diet". Protein is an essential part of anyone's diet. Changing the milk I use to soya will reduce the protein in my diet - and I am planning to add it back in again (using prawns or whatever), so that the net effect is simply to reduce the carbohydrate content without changing anything else.

Andrew

 

[Defren]

However, I am much happier with low carb.

I agree completely with you there, which is the main reason why I am making a change to my diet. Tesco shake powder made up with skimmed, coconut, almond or soya milk (I've tried them all), in my opinion, tastes a lot better than the pre-made Atkins shakes (yes, I have tried them) and they are a LOT cheaper - but, when used with skimmed milk, they do have far more carbohydrate than I would like. I am sure that my results will be better if my system is not assaulted by a comparitively high level of carbs - as indeed you have discovered yourself.

Andrew

I quite like the pre made Atkins shakes and they do add variety, horses for courses I expect. The cost is not something I have taken into account to be honest. I knew I needed lower carbs, and it still works out a lot cheaper than regular food. I just don't tolerate carbs well at all. Even a small rise pushes my BG up too high, hence the choice of Atkins. I did look around at slimfast, Asda, Tesco etc, but decided to settle with Atkins. I also was doing Atkins before the diet, so it just all seemed to tie into the lifestyle choice I had made.

It is all about choice, lifestyle change and how you approach this. Many people would think we are mad for trying this, but for me, it's about doing all I can for my body to have a chance to avoid complications. Like I have said before, I am even this early, looking for a sustainable long term dietary approach once I am done on the ND. Forward planning, and a goal is in my opinion vital for maintaining what we will achieve through these eight weeks.

Andrew, the group were given 600 calories in shakes, with an additional 200 in veg. Sorry, I can't continue with this, my head is pounding, my heat/smoke detector is shrieking every 30 seconds and I have no idea why, and it's giving me such a bad headache I feel sick. Off to investigate, will try to get back later.

 

[andrewk]

the group were given 600 calories in shakes, with an additional 200 in veg

It was the diabetic study group who had that, not the control group.

Andrew

 

[Defren]

the group were given 600 calories in shakes, with an additional 200 in veg

It was the diabetic study group who had that, not the control group.

Andrew

Smoke detector sorted.

Now you have completely lost me, to my knowledge the entire group were diabetic?

 

[andrewk]

Now you have completely lost me, to my knowledge the entire group were diabetic?

The trial involved a set of folks who were Type 2 diabetic and another set, the control group, who were not. The control group was a set of 8 people who were not diabetic but who were age, sex and weight matched to the diabetic group. They do it this way, so that they can measure the bloods of both groups and then be able to tell the difference between diabetic folks and those who are not. The control group did not have any dietary intervention - i.e. they just had their normal diet.

Andrew

 

[Defren]

Now you have completely lost me, to my knowledge the entire group were diabetic?

The trial involved a set of folks who were Type 2 diabetic and another set, the control group, who were not. The control group was a set of 8 people who were not diabetic but who were age, sex and weight matched to the diabetic group. They do it this way, so that they can measure the bloods of both groups and then be able to tell the difference between diabetic folks and those who are not. The control group did not have any dietary intervention - i.e. they just had their normal diet.

Andrew

Ok thanks for that you learn something new each day. That being the case, then if you take all my posts on the ND and read them purely in relation to the diabetic group, they may make more sense.

 

[andrewk]

This morning (Day8): Fasting: 6.3, breakfast+2: 8.0 which is not so great.

The fasting figure was at 7.30am when I got up to go to the loo - but I didn't have breakfast until 11am, so the pre-breakfast figure (not checked) was probably 8 or more due to Dawn Phenomenon. I'm hoping that reducing the carbs in the diet by 35g per day, by changing from skimmed to soya milk, will start to show benefits soon.

Time for some more pink grot (lunch)

Andrew

 

[Defren]

This morning (Day8): Fasting: 6.3, breakfast+2: 8.0 which is not so great.

The fasting figure was at 7.30am when I got up to go to the loo - but I didn't have breakfast until 11am, so the pre-breakfast figure (not checked) was probably 8 or more due to Dawn Phenomenon. I'm hoping that reducing the carbs in the diet by 35g per day, by changing from skimmed to soya milk, will start to show benefits soon.

Time for some more pink grot (lunch)

Andrew

Pink grot :lol: I have chocolate for lunch. My FBG was 5.0, and so far today it's good, but as we all know change can come quickly.

 

[andrewk]

It is now nearly the end of my 8th day on a hypocaloric Newcastle "style" diet.

The positives that I think have come out of it so far:

* It has been easier to keep to than I ever believed it would be
* I rather like the Tesco shakes - they taste a bit like melted ice-cream
* I have lost 8lb since I started and am now under 16 stones for the first time in around 20 years
* I stopped taking any medication (metformins) at the beginning of April. I'm convinced now that this is sustainable
* My bed-time BG readings have averaged 5.0 since I started the diet, which is just about normalised, I think
* My fasting BG for the last 4 days has averaged 6.2. This is significantly lower than the average for the first 3 weeks of
April (7.2) after I stopped taking metformin but before I started this diet. It is also lower than the average reading for
Feb (6.6) when I was still taking 4x500mg metformin per day

The negatives are .......... (I can't really think of any)

All in all, I feel very positive about it and am determined to see it through. I must admit, though, that I would feel even more positive if my fasting BGs fell under 6.0 this next week.

Andrew

 

[andrewk]

5.8 this morning

 

[Defren]

5.8 this morning

Good job, well done!

 

[andrewk]

Thanks. I'll feel a lot happier if it stays under 6. My main worry, at the moment, is not so much the fasting reading - but the breakfast+2 reading which is staying stubbornly between 8 and 9.