Newcastle comes to Oldham

[Defren]

Thanks. I'll feel a lot happier if it stays under 6. My main worry, at the moment, is not so much the fasting reading - but the breakfast+2 reading which is staying stubbornly between 8 and 9.

I wonder why? All my readings have come down and are pretty much maintaining. My usual mantra is are you drinking lots of water and doing any exercise?

 

[andrewk]

Breakfast+2 was between 5 and 6.5 during March 2012 when I was still on 2x500mg metformins. I'm now off medication altogether, so it might take a while to come down. Yes, I'm drinking lots - but I've fallen off the exercise wagon recently due to the weather around here - but I don't think that is the difference. Remember that the diabetic group in the Newcastle study did no extra exercise as part of the trial - and they came off medication at least a week before the start.

Lunch+2 readings are low to mid-6's which is OK for now. Dinner+2 is a touch higher. Bedtime readings are high 4's and low 5's. My guess is that my BGs continue to rise after the fasting reading due to Dawn Phenomenon - so my pre-breakfast reading (which I don't usually bother checking) is probably much higher.

Andrew

 

[andrewk]

A quick update ....

Day 7: fasting 6.2, breakfast+2 7.7
Day 8: fasting 6.3, breakfast+2 8.0
Day 9: fasting 5.8, breakfast+2 9.2
Day 10: fasting 5.6, breakfast+2 7.3 (today - updated at 09:13am)

Todays figures are the lowest since mid-March when I was still on metformin.

Andrew

 

[Defren]

A quick update ....

Day 7: fasting 6.2, breakfast+2 7.7
Day 8: fasting 6.3, breakfast+2 8.0
Day 9: fasting 5.8, breakfast+2 9.2
Day 10: fasting 5.6, breakfast+2 7.3 (today - updated at 09:13am)

Todays figures are the lowest since mid-March when I was still on metformin.

Andrew

Well done!!

Quick question, did you ever really feel cold? I am like a block of ice today, and can't warm up. Any suggestions/advice?

 

[andrewk]

Well done!! Quick question, did you ever really feel cold? I am like a block of ice today, and can't warm up. Any suggestions/advice?

Thanks.

I'm not really one of those who suffer from the cold. My wife, Mary, does - pretty much all the time. Our heating bill is vast!! Apart from thick wolly jumper and socks, I don't really know what to say.

Andrew

 

[Defren]

Well done!! Quick question, did you ever really feel cold? I am like a block of ice today, and can't warm up. Any suggestions/advice?

Thanks.

I'm not really one of those who suffer from the cold. My wife, Mary, does - pretty much all the time. Our heating bill is vast!! Apart from thick wolly jumper and socks, I don't really know what to say.

Andrew

I don't usually feel the cold at all, but the last few days and today especially, I'm absolutely freezing. Oh well, another sweater seems to be the answer.

 

[andrewk]

Up early this morning - FBG 5.1, breakfast+2 7.2

No Dawn Phenomenon at all (5.2 before bed last night). Getting there .......

Andrew

 

[Ali H]

Hi Andrew, are you doing this with GP supervision or just having a go under your own steam? I know we aren't allowed to give advice on here but can anybody tell me what you do with your existing meds? Do you need to stop them X amount of time beforehand or only during your 8 weeks etc?

Ali

 

[andrewk]

Hi Andrew, are you doing this with GP supervision or just having a go under your own steam?

Not GP supervision exactly, but certainly having discussed it with the diabetic nurse - who supports what I did when low carbing - and who urged some caution about extreme hypocaloric diets, but also said that, "its in your own hands". I'm confident that my GP will be very enthusiastic when gets an update on progress. I think the important thing is that I test very regularly myself (several times per day) so I can monitor exactly what is happening.

I know we aren't allowed to give advice on here but can anybody tell me what you do with your existing meds? Do you need to stop them X amount of time beforehand or only during your 8 weeks etc?

You can read all about the Newcastle study here http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm

To save you a little time, the study report says: "Participants were excluded if being treated with thiazolidinediones, insulin, steroids or beta-blockers, with a serum creatinine >150 mmol/l, with a serum alanine transaminase level >2.5-fold above the upper limit of the reference range, or if there were contraindications for MRI. Statin therapy was continued. The study protocol was approved by the Newcastle upon Tyne Ethics Committee No. 2, and all participants gave their informed consent. Sulfonylurea (two individuals) was discontinued 2 months, and metformin (seven individuals) 1 week, before the baseline study."

I started low-carbing in September 11 and had to stop taking glimepiride (a sulfonylurea) then because I started getting hypos. I stopped taking 2xmetformins at the beginning of March 12 and the other 2xmetformins at the beginnig of April 12, a couple of weeks before I started on the hypocaloric Newcastle "style" diet.

Andrew

 

[andrewk]

I dug out the ketostix this evening for a quick check. I am definitely in ketosis now - a nice shade of purple. Changing the milk for the shakes to unsweetened soya has definitely made a difference.

 

[borofergie]

I dug out the ketostix this evening for a quick check. I am definitely in ketosis now - a nice shade of purple. Changing the milk for the shakes to unsweetened soya has definitely made a difference.

Good work fella! All the cool kids are showing purple this year (plus Def, who apparently could if she wanted to...)

 

[Defren]

I dug out the ketostix this evening for a quick check. I am definitely in ketosis now - a nice shade of purple. Changing the milk for the shakes to unsweetened soya has definitely made a difference.

Good work fella! All the cool kids are showing purple this year (plus Def, who apparently could if she wanted to...)

I posted somewhere the other day I got a purple. So my ketostix are finally agreeing with me. Took the darn things long enough...

 

[andrewk]

Day 12: FBG 5.1

For three days running, my FBG has been lower than the bedtime reading - this have NEVER happened before. Maybe Dawn Phenomenon is a thing of the past. This strongly suggests either that my hepatic insulin resistance has fallen or that my basal insulin production has increased - good news whichever.

This diet really works, doesn't it?

Andrew

 

[Defren]

Day 12: FBG 5.1

For three days running, my FBG has been lower than the bedtime reading - this have NEVER happened before. Maybe Dawn Phenomenon is a thing of the past. This strongly suggests either that my hepatic insulin resistance has fallen or that my basal insulin production has increased - good news whichever.

This diet really works, doesn't it?

Andrew

There is nothing, or anyone who could convince me it doesn't. It's a diet that takes discipline and hard work, but the results are there to see.

FBG for me today. 5.0.

 

[claymic]

hope i am not jumping on this thread but i am curious about something....if someone is taking about 70g of carbs a day from the 3 shakes, is that the same as any other person following a diet with 70g of carbs or less??


Ta!

 

[Defren]

hope i am not jumping on this thread but i am curious about something....if someone is taking about 70g of carbs a day from the 3 shakes, is that the same as any other person following a diet with 70g of carbs or less??


Ta!

My carbs are much, much lower at 9g a day, 3g in each shake, so are around what I was ingesting before the diet. Andrew is on the higher carbs, so probably better placed to answer your question.

 

[andrewk]

hope i am not jumping on this thread but i am curious about something....if someone is taking about 70g of carbs a day from the 3 shakes, is that the same as any other person following a diet with 70g of carbs or less??

According to the Newcastle study report, the Optifast shakes were 170 kCals each and 46.4% of that was carbohydrate. So, if my sums are right, the daily energy from carbohydrate was 3 x 170 x 0.464 = 236.6 kCals. As carbohydrate is about 4 kCals per gram, the daily carbohydrate intake from shakes was around 59g. If we add in the green veg, the diabetic study would indeed have had 60-70g of carbohydrate each day.

I started the diet using 3 x Tesco shakes (coz they're cheap!!). When made up with 250ml skimmed milk, they each have 26.1g of carbs (of which 13.6g is from the shakes powder and 12.5g from the milk) - i.e. a total of 78.3g. If I add in say 10g of carbs from green veg, my total would have been around 90g per day. Once I had done those sums, I realised that I was consuming maybe 20g of carbs more than the Newcastle study group.

I decided to use soya milk instead of skimmed, which only has 0.5g of carbohydrate in 250ml, much lower than skimmed milk which has 12.5g in 250ml. So, my 3 Tesco shakes, made up with soya milk now each have 13.6 + 0.5 = 14.1g of carbohydrate per shake. My daily total including the green veg is now 10 + 3 x 14.1 = 52g of carbs, around 38g less than previously. Total calories had fallen too, as soya milk only has 60kCals in 250ml, whereas the skimmed milk had 88 kCals, a reduction of 84 kCals per day. A downside is that soya milk has a little less protein, 5g/ 250ml instead of 8.5g. I decided that I could reasonably add back in a (very) little meat or fish to provide that protein deficit without exceeding the original calory budget - and that is what I am now doing.

Do carbs make a difference? I believe they do. My belief, for what it is worth, is that the Newcastle diet works at least partly because it is (just) ketogenic and that potentially the same results could have been achieved with any very low carb ketogenic diet, such as the induction phase of Atkins (which is exactly what I plan to do when I finish my 8 weeks stint on the ND) or Dukan.

The difference between what I'm doing and what defren is doing is .......

* I am completely off medication, defren is (I think) still on 2xmetformin
* I am eating around 200g of green veg per day. I don't think defren is.
* I am eating a little over 50g carbohydrate per day, much more than defren but about 20g/day less than the Newcastle diabetic study group.
* I have a (very) little meat or fish to add back the protein lost by changing to soya milk.

I think that both approaches will work (i.e. weight will be lost and BGs wil improve). The important characteristics of a successful hypocaloric diet are, I think, that calory intake is significantly less than the daily energy requirement, that it is low carb enough to be ketogenic (so that you burn body fat), that the diet contains enough protein, fibre, vitamins and minerals. If you have all that, then I think it has to work.

Andrew

 

[claymic]

Andrew

Thanks for your response. I was just curious whether having let say 50g of carbs from having shakes, and having 50g of carbs from eating a "normal" diet with normal food - would give the same results in lowering BG's and weight.

i guess the main difference is the difference in calories which probably would aid the weight loss....

i admire all you who can stick to it - i still find it extremely difficult to contorl calories even though i am doing better with carbs...

Clay

 

[andrewk]

Thanks for your response. I was just curious whether having let say 50g of carbs from having shakes, and having 50g of carbs from eating a "normal" diet with normal food - would give the same results in lowering BG's and weight.

If a diet of mainly shakes has the same nutritional content as a diet that doesn't use shakes then I see no reason why the effect the effect should be any different.

Andrew

 

[phoenix]

out of curiosity I tried to work out a standard meat/veg starchy carb meal that you could eat that had the same macro nutrient content as the optifast shakes;
I found the content on the website (which seems to differ a bit from the paper, I think that it was because it was the ready made shakes, never mind its similar and showed me how difficult it was to do )
carbs 20g, protein 14g, fat 3 g. ie 50% carb, 35% protein, 16.8% fat (doesn't add up, they obviously rounded )

Trying to make a meal with meat and veg in these proportions is really difficult, meat obviously has both but so do veg It's actually hard not to get one or the other too high. (might have been easier if I'd used white fish) I didn't look at vitamins and minerals.(though having decided on red pepper looked for a green veg)
My nearest tries were:
50g rump steak, 70g new potato, 100g red pepper, 50g cabbage. This worked out at 19.9g carb, 13.84g protein, 2.93g fat.
60g of chicken breast , same veg; 19,9g carb,16,34g protein,2.96g fat.
Lot easier to use the shakes!