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Newcastle Diet, Reversal, Professor Taylor's / Dr Fung's Views

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by Living-by-the-beach, Mar 23, 2016.

  1. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    It looks like T2D has at least 3 viable treatment options
    1) Standard treatment protocol - medication/insulin to delay progression. target HbA1c 7%.
    2) Low carb/Keto/Intermittent fasting to normalize insulin/glucose level. HbA1c 5%-6% often achievable.
    3) Newcastle Very low calorie diet to restore first phase insulin response. 40% success rate?

    But I haven't read the latest paper...so have no idea how they measure first phase insulin response. By blueberry muffin?
     
  2. Neohdiver

    Neohdiver Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    What I quoted was not "hearsay from correspondence to him." It is his words, posted on his website, describing his work. (What I quoted is also a shorter version of the hour plus talk he gave in October 2014, linked to elsewhere in the threaed.) You are correct as to what he has data-based proof of - but for the rest - what he is asserting (repeatedly & independently of others' responses) is that it is significant weight loss not rapid weight loss that is the key, and he gives a scientifically credible explanation for that assertion.

    As to needing convincing v. ability to stick to the Newcastle Diet - the two are independent issues. Needing convincing is related to the science. If there is a scientific basis for rapid weight loss via a low calorie diet producing different results - not just achieving the same goal faster, it would be worth trying. I'm not concerned about speed - but I am looking for different results. The scientist behind the plan says it does NOT produce different results. Apparently Dr. Fung (not the scientist behind the diet) believes it does produce different results (but has published NO peer reviewed research that I can find.)

    I have been eating a 1200 calorie a day diet with a delicate balance between carbs and protein since October 2. I can count on one finger the number of days I have exceeded that by more than 4%. I can count on two hands the number of times my blood glucose has exceeded 7.8 - and at least half of those were unrelated to any predictable response to carb consumption. I don't think "easy to stick to" is an issue for me (at least in the short (under 3 years) term. :rolleyes:

    My question is a purely scientific one - and the doctor who has published two scientific papers on the diet says (with at least rational scientific reasoning) that his findings are not restricted to the timing of the weight loss. A second doctor (who has not published any peer reviewed articles) claims the first doctor's results are linked to fasting (and thus limited to the very low calorie diet. I'm looking for either peer reviewed data - or a credible scientific explanation for why the severe calorie restriction would produce different results so I can make an informed choice about whether to continue the course I am on - or switch to a severely calorie restricted diet for the last 8 weeks.
     
  3. SunnyExpat

    SunnyExpat Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

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    Back when I was diagnosed, in the UK, I was told by the NHS dietician to stop eating that much fruit, as I was supposed to lose weight, and the fructose would keep it on me.
     
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  4. SunnyExpat

    SunnyExpat Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

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    If you read all Taylor's work, a lot of his claim on weight loss is from his requests for information from diabetics worldwide to contact him, and advise him what they have done, and their results. He has no proof, it is hearsay, perhaps it has worked, perhaps he has theorised why, but he has only actually carried out calorie restricted diets, and that would be the only one I would consider effective, with the proportions of carbs, fat, and protein used in the study.
    But, each to his own, as he says.
     
  5. Neohdiver

    Neohdiver Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    In the end you're still left with a scientist who offers no explanation for why his dietary plan works, and no explanation for why it appears to reverse diabetes of short duration in 1-2 weeks, not to mention that his explanation for why he chose the particular dietary components is (1) it was available and provided free by Nestle and (2) it provided complete nutrients. In contrast, he currently claims (even though none of his 3 studies are designed to test it) that (1) any low calorie plan will work and (2) even a merely hypocaloric plan that loses the same amount over time will work - as long as the weight loss is significant. His claims are accompanied by a fairly complex explanation of the metabolic interactions that make it work - although they do not explain the very early reversal generated by the very ow calorie diet.

    I would be far more likely to give the diet iteslf credence if either Dr. Taylor or Dr. Fung or someone else offered a science based theory for the early drop & for why rapid weight loss would make a difference beyond reaching your goal faster. Dr. Fung's assertions about whether the diet stresses your body, aside, there are reasons that formally structured very low calorie diets always recommend, and sometimes require, close medical supervisions.
     
  6. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

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    Whilst I agree with you wholeheartedly about following the ND properly, many of us don't have any choice but to do 'our own versions' . The real ND used Optifast which is only available on prescription. To me, other meal replacements just aren't the same, so if you can't get Optifast, then any other alternative will be 'our own version.' When I did mine, the ND was called a '600 cal' diet back then, so that's what I did. Real food, no cheating at all. If I had 610 calories one day then the next day was 590. If I had known it was really 800 calories then that's what I would have done, but there was very little on the internet about it back then, I only found a couple of short paragraphs about it.

    I do have visceral fat, and I did continue to watch what I ate after the low cal phase, but the method still didn't work for me. If I could do the real ND, then I would, but it's not an option for me. I think it's a bit of a 'cop out' to say that those of us for whom the diet didn't work weren't doing it properly. Maybe Professor Taylor cherry picked the people in his studies too.
     
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  7. lindisfel

    lindisfel · Well-Known Member

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    It would be great if we all got the best advice and did not have find out the hard way. D.
     
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  8. Living-by-the-beach

    Living-by-the-beach Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    @lindisfel

    What if Prof. Taylor had 80% of the story correct and that really hard core fasting became the rest of the story? That was my original point of starting this thread. Dr. Fung puts great emphasis on fasting. I've lost 75% more weight than the 43% of the recent successful study participants of Taylor's study. Yes I could still fall into the 5% differential of the bariatric failures Fung mentioned but with my weight loss, the whole issue doesn't make sense (at least to me).

    Its the 500lb obese guy that gets rid of his diabetes at 475lbs (within two weeks of surgery) & yet I am struggling when I am a BMI of 24.3? To me the juxtaposition doesn't make full rational sense? I may be talking total balderdash? Yet I suspect there is more to the fasting method than Taylor is giving credit for.

    LBB
     
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  9. Hiitsme

    Hiitsme Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you @Living-by-the-beach for starting this thread. I've now done a bit of reading of the links and am starting to get my head round some of it. The latest Newcastle results are nothing like as good as the earlier pilot study and I wonder why. He did have one person who had not responded at the 8 week mark but had at 6 months. What might have been interesting if any of the non-responders had tried losing more weight and if that had helped. I think it must be very discouraging for the non-responders who obviously would have had high hopes and put all the effort in rather like you and many others. This obviously works for some but not all by any means. It will be interesting to see when some on his long term study gets published which I think I've read the first results are likely late next year. Long time to wait.
    Are you going to try the fasting? The trouble is if it doesn't work then it would be even more of a discouragement. I don't think that any of these ideas will work for everyone.
    Good luck on whatever you do try.
     
  10. muzza3

    muzza3 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    My thanks also to @Living-by-the-beach for this thread and all of the contributors as I have also been reading all the responses and links (which is pretty good for me because by nature I am not a details person "just give me the bottom line")

    @Hiitsme I am pretty sure that in the first study all or nearly all the participants were newly diagnosed Type 2's where in the second study it was a much wider selection which would include many more long-term Type 2's

    I have completed the ND diet (Shakes and Veges) and achieved sensational results. Following that I have been using LCHF for the four weeks with a further 4kg weight-loss and FBG's between 3.9 and 4.9 each morning over those four weeks. I have stopped meds (metformin and Statins)

    I am now quite fascinated by fasting and it is something that I will be looking into including in my diet in the near future

    My thoughts with the ND is I cannot see it causing any harm to people who try it (underweight excepted) with the upside being well worth the effort. For me the shakes and vegetables is the only way to do it as it (to date) is the only tested version
     
  11. lindisfel

    lindisfel · Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I see on here some very overweight guy got his hba1c down from the 90s to the 30s in about four months. We are all different. I have now lost three stone, my bmi was 27.5, and my hba1c has only come from 50 to 44. Fasting is a problem for me with taking non diabetic drugs but I do feel full on lchf and I could try missing lunch a few days per week and I think it will improve my GGT. atb Derek
     
  12. SunnyExpat

    SunnyExpat Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

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    I think you need to keep an open mind, and eventually you may realise the best advice isn't what we want to hear, rather it's what we need to hear.
     
  13. Living-by-the-beach

    Living-by-the-beach Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    @muzza3 @Hiitsme @SunnyExpat & @lindisfel

    I am happy you've all contributed to this thread. We're all in this boat together. I've started reading here

    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-a-history-part-i/

    & I am almost a day into fasting as I type this. I am not taking any meds but I've been more cautious with my food and probably historically done too much exercise.

    What's really struck me was this

    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/bariatrics-surgically-enforced-fasting-t2d-6/

    "A stunning 95% of type 2 diabetes was reversed, with a median A1C was 5.3%"

    Bariatric surgery is suggesting (to me at least) to give it a go and try mimicking the surgery (without the surgery) as Fung goes on to saying

    "Interestingly, the T2D is often reversed within weeks and far, far before significant weight is lost. For example, a 500 pound man might lose 50 pounds in a few months. That’s great, but that still leaves him at 450 pounds. Despite this weight, T2D is often fully reversed. Why does it work? There are many theories. But it is pretty obvious how bariatric surgery really works its magic. Bariatrics is surgically enforced fasting."

    Dr Fung goes on to mention here https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-a-history-part-i/

    Trust-in-Jesus.png

    LBB
     
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  14. muzza3

    muzza3 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I wish you well LBB
    Please let us know what you are doing (Fasting & Detail) as I am very interested in how you find it and what impact it has as you move forward.
    Cheers
     
  15. Hiitsme

    Hiitsme Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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  16. reidpj

    reidpj · Well-Known Member

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    Given that the surgery is normally only performed (here in the UK) on those with a BMI of 40+ (lower in certain circumstances); I wonder if the same 95% would be achieved with patients whose BMI's were closer to 'normal'?
     
  17. Living-by-the-beach

    Living-by-the-beach Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi All

    I am going to post an update as and when I think I've got something really meaningful to say so in the mean time I'll just put a link to Dr Fung's Blog and "Fasting 1"

    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-a-history-part-i/

    There's a longer series on fasting from Dr Fung that stretches about 20 or so separate webpages if you are interested. I will update everyone in a few days on my progress. So far so good..

    LBB
     
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