Newcastle Diet - to follow it and do shakes and veg, or deviate?

[Living-by-the-beach]

@Arab Horse I have an obese friend that I've commandeered to get both of us fitter for our familes's sakes. We met funnily enough in Cannes France 35 years ago and now we are neighbors, living less than a mile apart, yet with me originating in the UK & him from New York state USA.! It does help to have buddies for sure.

One great machine to workout on IMHO is Concept 2 ergometer (rowing machine). It gives a great workout for sure. There's one for sale in the UK now http://london.craigslist.co.uk/spo/4863973303.html . 20- 30 minutes / day on that makes a workout easier! No traveling to the gym! Just one caveat get someone to teach you how to row. There is some technique, not much but definitely some so you don't injure your back by being too agressive..

 

[AloeSvea]

As for sorting out what's next, I'm struggling to control myself and want to cave...am using today to focus on the next three week goal and then I'll take it from there. Not sure if I'll do a Newcastle Diet approach or some other food diet. Does the Low Carb High Fat diet include cheese? Maybe today I'll look at getting a blood sugar meter. I think I'm torn between how to both reduce blood sugar while also sorting out cholesterol, and my personal preferences (ie. protein diet but with fatty cheese, or eating steak, and not portioning)...at present it all seems a bit daft. Quite a bit daft.

I'm frustrated. But still in the game. Talking to people about it. Trying to sort out what to do next.

I think it's rally good mememe... that you come in here to sort these things out, and think through your process on your diet. Support, and all that! And you know I think it is a REALLY good idea for you to get that blood glucose meter. Apart from getting frequent HBA1c and blood lipid tests (even if you could), those little numbers on the meter is the only way to see what is happening with your insulin-leptin-blood sugar system, and therefore what the effect is on your liver and pancreas (and see that your Newcastle Diet, or version of, is working for you).

It's your Very Low Calorie Diet! So if you want cheese, and you tolerate cheese well - you should go for it. Especially as Jack says, I think it was, if that is the food you plan to be eating as part of your normal diet post your ND. I have a feeling it is super high in calories though - so you would have to be very careful to have the VLCD mini proportions! I've been on my VLCD for three and half weeks now - and the only amount of cheese I have been able to have is four VERY thin slices, and some parmesan sprinkled on a zucchini 'pasta' dish last night. Dairy products are wonderful to eat and full of good dietary fat - but very high in calories for we on the VLCDs.

The cholesterol issue is a WHOLE other issue! There is a school of nutritional thought that argues that cholestoerol levels in our blood, and in our food, have little to do with your heart attack/stroke risk (the risk being something we diabetics do have to consider, unfortunately for us), and it has more to do with LDL particle size, and with the ratio of triglycerides to HDL that determines our risk factor. I am currently sitting at a bar with a VLCD glass of water and a coffee, so I can't be bothered finding my references right now - but it's all there in the internet at any rate... (and is a fascinating issue in itself - even if we didn't have to pay such attention to it!)

 

[AloeSvea]

Thanks for that, Living-by-the-sea. You have just more or less made up my mind for me. I will make an appointment with my diabetic nurse so she knows what I am doing and discuss it with her. If a few weeks of semi starvation can reverse my diabetes then it is well worth the effort. As I don't have any body fat to lose I think my organ fat should go fairly quickly especially as I do eat a lot (or did).

I thought about Richard Doughty for you too, Arab Horse. I have read his pieces (in the Guardian - which is the fuller one - and in The Daily Mail) also, and have gotten a lot out of them. For me, it is because he is the same height as me, and I was very interested in how skinny he had to get to go into remission. (And he SO was not a big boy to begin with!) By 'interested' - read horrified for purely selfish reasons! Once I turned the stones into kilograms so I could actually get a handle on it, (I am not English, nor American - I have never used online converters as much in my life since becoming a T2Diabetic!) I just stared at the conversions, in dismay. I realised, for me to go into remission as he did, I too might have to become a 'disappearing man' (well for me it is a woman, but hey! Same principle.) I can't remember exactly the figure, but he got down to 50 or 55 kg, and he was slender when he began. That's why he was off the ND pronto smart! As his blood glucose levels had lowered to normal levels, along with the sinking of his weight. (The eight weeks is for the more fuller-figured diabetics, I believe, as they have more fat stores to get through.)

I am now 66kg, after three and a half weeks on my deviated ND, and my butt bones are causing me pain sitting on hard wooden seats of the bar I am sitting at (which I last experienced as an eight year old! The butt bones that is! To put it into perspective, when it comes to women and our comfy subcutaneous fat deposits..). But it is great to have some kind of waist and hip definition again. (And I am now officially 'intermediate hyperglycaemic' or pre-diabetes, as opposed to actually T2D.) (Got the phone call from the doc yesterday.)

But yes - do I want to keep going and keep disappearing? Because, as I feared, reading about Richard Doughty, that DOES seem to be the case for some slender or slim T2Diabetics if they embark on the ND. (I wasn't slender, when I began, just...normal! "Upper 25% of the normal weighted women range" says my partner, sitting with me at the bar.) I was hoping my 'personal fat threshold' would not be much below my starting weight (70 or 71 kg - I can't remember), but that, as I kind of figured, alas, is not to be my fate! (And why I am contributing my experience in here - so others can add it to their body of knowledge with which to make a decision about whether to do it or not - as I have been deeply grateful to the legends in here for doing for me.) (And I say this eating mini carrots as recommended! A life-saving piece of advice when on a VLCD!)

This is where discussing - in here, with your loved ones, and with medical professionals comes in. And ultimately - how much you want remission, or how quickly. (And how much you can stand being on a semi-starvation diet!) I must admit, the success stories in here - doing it a bit slower for longer - have started to look much more attractive to me now, as I get close to the halfway mark. But I am thinking about this at the mo'.

 

[Arab Horse]

Nice to read all the comments/advice etc.

I saw my diabetic nurse this afternoon; she wasn't very au fait with the ND and wasn't convinced about it for me. I asked for a GAD and c-peptide test so she has given me the blood test forms and she also said she would arrange a liver scan for me to see if I was "fat inside/thin outside" as I suggested so that is great news. I will now wait until after my scan to see if I have a fatty liver before I start the ND. I have the powder to make the shakes ready to start as I intended to begin this week end and if I don't have a fatty liver and pancreas I can use the shakes when I am out for the day and don't have access to diabetes friendly food!

I have to say that my DN has been great, very nice lady and listens to what I say and is happy to discuss things with me. I eagerly await my liver scan to see where I go from here.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

I thought about Richard Doughty for you too, Arab Horse. I have read his pieces (in the Guardian - which is the fuller one - and in The Daily Mail) also, and have gotten a lot out of them. For me, it is because he is the same height as me, and I was very interested in how skinny he had to get to go into remission. (And he SO was not a big boy to begin with!) By 'interested' - read horrified for purely selfish reasons! Once I turned the stones into kilograms so I could actually get a handle on it, (I am not English, nor American - I have never used online converters as much in my life since becoming a T2Diabetic!) I just stared at the conversions, in dismay. I realised, for me to go into remission as he did, I too might have to become a 'disappearing man' (well for me it is a woman, but hey! Same principle.) I can't remember exactly the figure, but he got down to 50 or 55 kg, and he was slender when he began. That's why he was off the ND pronto smart! As his blood glucose levels had lowered to normal levels, along with the sinking of his weight. (The eight weeks is for the more fuller-figured diabetics, I believe, as they have more fat stores to get through.)

I am now 66kg, after three and a half weeks on my deviated ND, and my butt bones are causing me pain sitting on hard wooden seats of the bar I am sitting at (which I last experienced as an eight year old! The butt bones that is! To put it into perspective, when it comes to women and our comfy subcutaneous fat deposits..). But it is great to have some kind of waist and hip definition again. (And I am now officially 'intermediate hyperglycaemic' or pre-diabetes, as opposed to actually T2D.) (Got the phone call from the doc yesterday.)

But yes - do I want to keep going and keep disappearing? Because, as I feared, reading about Richard Doughty, that DOES seem to be the case for some slender or slim T2Diabetics if they embark on the ND. (I wasn't slender, when I began, just...normal! "Upper 25% of the normal weighted women range" says my partner, sitting with me at the bar.) I was hoping my 'personal fat threshold' would not be much below my starting weight (70 or 71 kg - I can't remember), but that, as I kind of figured, alas, is not to be my fate! (And why I am contributing my experience in here - so others can add it to their body of knowledge with which to make a decision about whether to do it or not - as I have been deeply grateful to the legends in here for doing for me.) (And I say this eating mini carrots as recommended! A life-saving piece of advice when on a VLCD!)

This is where discussing - in here, with your loved ones, and with medical professionals comes in. And ultimately - how much you want remission, or how quickly. (And how much you can stand being on a semi-starvation diet!) I must admit, the success stories in here - doing it a bit slower for longer - have started to look much more attractive to me now, as I get close to the halfway mark. But I am thinking about this at the mo'.

@AloeSvea Its funny the concept of the "Personal Fat Threshold" (PFT) as Prof. Taylor refers to it. Yet OTOH its a simple concept. If you've lost weight but your diabetes hasn't gone into remission then you've not reached your PFT. I do wonder though as extremely obese diabetics can go into remission post bariatric surgery, (within days) yet they may still have plenty of weight to be lost.

I know I pounded 14 miles on my bike today and had a salad for a late lunch. I got back home all sweaty but my feet do feel so much better for the workout. My BMI currently is hovering around 25 down from 30.7 diagnosed. I am not yet in remission..

JM

 

[AloeSvea]

@AloeSvea Its funny the concept of the "Personal Fat Threshold" (PFT) as Prof. Taylor refers to it. Yet OTOH its a simple concept. If you've lost weight but your diabetes hasn't gone into remission then you've not reached your PFT. I do wonder though as extremely obese diabetics can go into remission post bariatric surgery, (within days) yet they may still have plenty of weight to be lost.

I know I pounded 14 miles on my bike today and had a salad for a late lunch. I got back home all sweaty but my feet do feel so much better for the workout. My BMI currently is hovering around 25 down from 30.7 diagnosed. I am not yet in remission..

JM

Yes indeed. (Is there really an acronym for 'Personal Fat Threshold' too?) But yes - all part of the wonderful variety of life!

And why I don't really talk about BMI very much - there is so much variation as to what constitutes normal for different ethnic groups (and I am not a numbers person). But I do understand that it is a handy indicator for obesity etc.

As for myself - I just look in the mirror! And when, pre-diagnosis, when I was looking in the mirror in the hallway, and my adult daughter bumped into me and bounced off my big belly - I reckoned that was pretty big! Too big. Without even having to calculate my BMI! But yes, a handy figure, and it makes sense in here to talk BMI. (And we love the bouncing off the belly story in my family, when discussing the dangers of belly fat .)

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Yes indeed. (Is there really an acronym for 'Personal Fat Threshold' too?) But yes - all part of the wonderful variety of life!

And why I don't really talk about BMI very much - there is so much variation as to what constitutes normal for different ethnic groups (and I am not a numbers person). But I do understand that it is a handy indicator for obesity etc.

As for myself - I just look in the mirror! And when, pre-diagnosis, when I was looking in the mirror in the hallway, and my adult daughter bumped into me and bounced off my big belly - I reckoned that was pretty big! Too big. Without even having to calculate my BMI! But yes, a handy figure, and it makes sense in here to talk BMI. (And we love the bouncing off the belly story in my family, when discussing the dangers of belly fat .)

@AloeSvea I think the simple way forward is just to get into a very fit body. With very low % of fat. Actually the word scavenge comes to mind. Great word. "Scavenge the fats away" (* motto of the Year) That should take it all way from liver/pancreas ? I know I will put my both my neurologist & his assistant to shame in that they are both carrying too much of the "BMI" next time I am in for a checkup..

 

[AloeSvea]

@AloeSvea I think the simple way forward is just to get into a very fit body. With very low % of fat. Actually the word scavenge comes to mind. Great word. "Scavenge the fats away" (* motto of the Year) That should take it all way from liver/pancreas ? I know I will put my both my neurologist & his assistant to shame in that they are both carrying too much of the "BMI" next time I am in for a checkup..

Yes, that is how I think normally too. (I say normally, because I am currently not living normally - as in a LCD. I can't be as fit and as strong as I can be on 800-900 calories a day. I just can't!)

Normally - I am very aware that muscle cells are A-1 for dealing with blood glucose excess/too high insulin release, and many of us are meant to be muscular. I am one of those people too. Being really fit for me is also about being somewhat muscular. (I'm looking forward to being able to admire my pecs again.)

I do like your 'scavenge the fats away'.

And I agree about talking with medical practitioners about body fat when they are bigger than you are as quite funny! Indeed.

For me, it was where the fat was - ie belly fat. And some folk can be quite big with extra BMI as you say ), but it's spread around, and not a big dollop on the pancreas and liver, like I had. (And It's taking everything I have to get rid of the last vestiges, Sigh.)

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Yes, that is how I think normally too. (I say normally, because I am currently not living normally - as in a LCD. I can't be as fit and as strong as I can be on 800-900 calories a day. I just can't!)

Normally - I am very aware that muscle cells are A-1 for dealing with blood glucose excess/too high insulin release, and many of us are meant to be muscular. I am one of those people too. Being really fit for me is also about being somewhat muscular. (I'm looking forward to being able to admire my pecs again.)

I do like your 'scavenge the fats away'.

And I agree about talking with medical practitioners about body fat when they are bigger than you are as quite funny! Indeed.

For me, it was where the fat was - ie belly fat. And some folk can be quite big with extra BMI as you say ), but it's spread around, and not a big dollop on the pancreas and liver, like I had. (And It's taking everything I have to get rid of the last vestiges, Sigh.)

@AloeSvea yeah but think of the positive side of it all, you'll be more healthy, you'll look better and you'll have more energy too! Apart from looking sexier! As for the neurologist, he was banging on about a "Jiggle plate" as though it was some kind of workout.. What I can't get over is that I've lost 47lbs put on a 2" size smaller pair of jeans & yet I still have a muffin top! 47lbs, and still the muffin top! How out of shape was I?

 

[Brunneria]

The personal fat threshold is a great concept, and it can be applied to a lot of type 2s.

But I don't believe it can be applied to all - there are other reasons for T2 than just fat (other health issues, drugs, heredity, environment and lifestyle being just a few of the variables)

And for those to whom it does apply, I suspect that a lot of other factors come in to play. I do not believe, for example, that a fit, active 30 yr old's PFT will stay the same when they are 60, with arthritic knees and insomnia.

 

[AloeSvea]

@AloeSvea yeah but think of the positive side of it all, you'll be more healthy, you'll look better and you'll have more energy too! Apart from looking sexier! As for the neurologist, he was banging on about a "Jiggle plate" as though it was some kind of workout.. What I can't get over is that I've lost 47lbs put on a 2" size smaller pair of jeans & yet I still have a muffin top! 47lbs, and still the muffin top! How out of shape was I?

Ha! Yeah. OK. Maybe I will agree with you when I am not so hungry? You know how the hormonal chain of command goes - food first - sex next. And my jutting butt bones ain't sexy - I promise! Richard Doughty was 'the disappearing man' - I can be 'the sheila with the jutt-butt bones'! (See - ain't sexy!) This is a good subject to bring up though - what happens to your sex drive and energy level during the Newcastle Diet? For me it would be - the drive - yes! (Especially after having a day off from the diet.) The energy - no. Think about it though - if one is having trouble putting one foot in front of the other walking out and about - what does that do to your ability to jiggle plate in the boudoir?

BTW - what IS a jiggle plate?! What a great phrase!

Muffin tops? Ah! That what all those ads online promise to get rid of! 'Love handles' (and entirely appropriate phrase for this post!) are classic with folk with insulin resistance - ie - us! Or so says Nora Gedgaudas, in book 'Primal Body, Primal MInd'. (Who knows if it is really true?)

 

[jack412]

The personal fat threshold is a great concept, and it can be applied to a lot of type 2s.

But I don't believe it can be applied to all - there are other reasons for T2 than just fat (other health issues, drugs, heredity, environment and lifestyle being just a few of the variables)

And for those to whom it does apply, I suspect that a lot of other factors come in to play. I do not believe, for example, that a fit, active 30 yr old's PFT will stay the same when they are 60, with arthritic knees and insomnia.

he uses the term to mean that to get the fat out of the liver and pancreas, different people will have different BMI to achieve this. whether it reverses the diabetes is another story, some do ..some don't and other factors come into it as you said.

 

[AloeSvea]

The personal fat threshold is a great concept, and it can be applied to a lot of type 2s.

But I don't believe it can be applied to all - there are other reasons for T2 than just fat (other health issues, drugs, heredity, environment and lifestyle being just a few of the variables)

And for those to whom it does apply, I suspect that a lot of other factors come in to play. I do not believe, for example, that a fit, active 30 yr old's PFT will stay the same when they are 60, with arthritic knees and insomnia.

Of course you are absolutely right Brunneria. All of the above. And why all folk with belly fat are not diabetic. Quite right. I am certainly uncomfortable with the whole-hearted emphasis on fat and obesity of many diabetes doctors/scientist/commentators etc that I read or listen to on youtube - to the extent that Dr Hyman (of 'The Blood Sugar Solution' fame) (and he is a great communicator on youtube) - calls it 'diabesity' without blinking an eye.

But yes, we all know here, that there are thin diabetics. It does need repeating for sure.

I must say, it makes a difference to me, and to what these folk say, if they are diabetic themselves! (I feel like I should be guiltily whispering this. But I do think this. And one of the reasons why a forum such as this is absolutely priceless.) I always talk about factors that pushed me over the dysregulation edge (vitamiin D deficiency, job stress, massive increase in drinking processed foods and soda pop - and that is just the stuff I know about) - as well as the belly fat. As well as ethnic group factors, and perimenopause - for sure.

Athiritic knees and insomnia? Attend to the adrenals and cut the wheat grain! (So says Nora Gedgaudas in any case.) 60 seems really young to have arthritic knees, but then again - I thought 52 was WAY too young to get T2D! ;-)

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

The personal fat threshold is a great concept, and it can be applied to a lot of type 2s.

But I don't believe it can be applied to all - there are other reasons for T2 than just fat (other health issues, drugs, heredity, environment and lifestyle being just a few of the variables)

And for those to whom it does apply, I suspect that a lot of other factors come in to play. I do not believe, for example, that a fit, active 30 yr old's PFT will stay the same when they are 60, with arthritic knees and insomnia.

@Brunneria I'd agree with you entirely. Yet all I know is my cousin who was 120 lbs overweight lost 60 of those lbs and now takes half the insulin. I on the other hand am still on the metformin Thank god.! I am however religious about my exercise. My hands were feeling bad earlier and I put the wheel back into my bike and cycled 14 miles & now they don't feel so bad! Yea!

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Ha! Yeah. OK. Maybe I will agree with you when I am not so hungry? You know how the hormonal chain of command goes - food first - sex next. And my jutting butt bones ain't sexy - I promise! Richard Doughty was 'the disappearing man' - I can be 'the sheila with the jutt-butt bones'! (See - ain't sexy!) This is a good subject to bring up though - what happens to your sex drive and energy level during the Newcastle Diet? For me it would be - the drive - yes! (Especially after having a day off from the diet.) The energy - no. Think about it though - if one is having trouble putting one foot in front of the other walking out and about - what does that do to your ability to jiggle plate in the boudoir?

BTW - what IS a jiggle plate?! What a great phrase!

Muffin tops? Ah! That what all those ads online promise to get rid of! 'Love handles' (and entirely appropriate phrase for this post!) are classic with folk with insulin resistance - ie - us! Or so says Nora Gedgaudas, in book 'Primal Body, Primal MInd'. (Who knows if it is really true?)

@AloeSvea The jiggle plate is AKA vibration fitness plate. . As for the ND I never did fully subscribe to it I just did the ABCDEF diet


A No alcohol
B No bread no pasta no potatoes no rice.
C No cereal
D Light on the dairy. Cheese is okay and full fat cream / 1/2 & 1/2 for coffee but avoid the lightweight milks. Full fat milk only
E Lots of EXERCISE !
F be careful on the fruit. Avoid the Bananas / Mangos etc. Anything with high sugar fruit..

& plenty of exercise. Thankfully the boudoir and its exercise has been getting plenty of action...

 

[Brunneria]

& plenty of exercise. Thankfully the boudoir and its exercise has been getting plenty of action...

I have I ask, is that a typo?

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

I have I ask, is that a typo?

@Brunneria who doesn't love action in the boudoir? Doesn't God love us all too? I just walked upstairs from living room in my uggs and speedo like underbrookis ...

 

[Brunneria]

Am delighted for you!

 

[AloeSvea]

@AloeSvea The jiggle plate is AKA vibration fitness plate. . As for the ND I never did fully subscribe to it I just did the ABCDF diet...& plenty of exercise. Thankfully the boudoir and its exercise has been getting plenty of action...

Good to hear about the jiggle plate AND the good healthy action in the boudoir.

Yes, quite understood about what dietary and lifestyle methods work for us as individuals. Whatever gets us as healthy as we can be, our pancreases and livers getting better or even working properly again etc, is all good.

Something that I am doing is compiling all the broad-strokes information from 'reversal, cure, remission, better control' etc writers, published and online, that I come across, and look at what they have in common and the key differences. (I am interested in being a T2D educator, and in media.) As well as the 'true-life stories' that we all are in here. I obviously need to get onto it and start cutting and pasting - and the ABCDEF diet should definitely go in! (I'll just include the Exercise in the E... .) (Very catchy indeed!)

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Good to hear about the jiggle plate AND the good healthy action in the boudoir.

Yes, quite understood about what dietary and lifestyle methods work for us as individuals. Whatever gets us as healthy as we can be, our pancreases and livers getting better or even working properly again etc, is all good.

Something that I am doing is compiling all the broad-strokes information from 'reversal, cure, remission, better control' etc writers, published and online, that I come across, and look at what they have in common and the key differences. (I am interested in being a T2D educator, and in media.) As well as the 'true-life stories' that we all are in here. I obviously need to get onto it and start cutting and pasting - and the ABCDEF diet should definitely go in! (I'll just include the Exercise in the E... .) (Very catchy indeed!)

@AloeSvea I've since modified the diet and included the "E" as in Exercise. I forwarded it on to Prof. Taylor. He liked it before I am confident he'll like it more now with the "E".

We had hamburgers at lunch time (me sans the bun) and I had "Sweet potato fries". I know they are good for fiber but I was on my bike and I did throw in a quick 16 mile bike ride too. Yet strangely enough the neuropathy is back attacking me again today.. May be the fries?