newly diagnosed - complex/starchy carbs.

[lionheart]

Hi folks. I'm 42 and a newly diagnosed Type 2 (diet only at present - my initial bloods were 7.1)). So i've started to read as much as i can on the net and yesterday saw the nurse specialist. I am somewhat perplexed though not surprised at the amount of conflicting info you read on the net. The one that perplexes me the most is the subject of starchy carbs. I exercise a lot so have always had carbs for the energy and the information leaflet the nurse gave me emphasises having starchy carbs with each meal. However, i've read a lot of stuff that depicts bread, rice , pasta etc as the enemy, stuff for example where people reverse diabetes through a vegetarian diet and so on. I'm also a bit deflated by the GP and nurse both repeatedly saying that the illness is 'progressive',i'm quite motivated to do whatever it takes to stay well and this sort of made me feel like they were saying that whatever you do you'll lose in the end. Would appreciate your wisdom and experience. This website is a great resource.

 

[IanD]

I wrote this on another thread - its a composite of conversations with health professionals. (HPs)

I was told on the X-PERT course that Hounslow spend more on test strips than drugs - so I asked if good control was keeping the drug cost down ..... it is for me.

Drs prescribe, while dietitians advise a high starchy carb diet as a healthy diet for everybody, especially diabetics. Eat the carbs, & control the resultant high BG with the drugs prescribed.

On the occasions when discussion arises, the conversation goes:
Me: Are you as an HP diabetic yourself?
Them: No!
Me: Is your advice based on successful control of diabetics, or on what you have learned?
Them: Research reports.
Me: Your research finds that T2 is progressive, so that we go from diet, to oral medication, to insulin, with complications setting in along the way.
Them: Agreed.
Me: I've been there, done that. I followed the starchy carb diet, until the complications set in. I was becoming crippled with neuropathy, & had the beginning of diabetic retinopathy.
I began a low carb diet, & within 3 months, my mobility was fully restored. Two years on, my retinopathy is clear.
Them: If it works for you, fine, but we have to recommend the findings of research.
Me: I learned from diabetics with good control (on this forum.) You HPs should learn from us, NOT from other people's research. Their research confirms the idea that diabetes is progressive. Our experience shows that low carb can give long term good control, & reverse complications.
Them: but you NEED carbs for energy, for brain function, etc.
Me: I'm 71; I play tennis at club standard & hold my own against younger players without bananas & energy drinks. While playing, I drink water. My BG is maintained at 6-7 while I am playing, whereas if I rest, it will drop to 5-6. The BG I need is generated by my body. As for brain function, I read, do complex puzzles (thanks Daily Mail) & study the Bible & prepare sermons.
Them: If it works for you, fine, but we have to recommend the findings of research. In any case the long term effects of low carb are questionable.
Me: I'm a research/development scientist, working in industry. My research had to work, or I would have been out of a job. I trusted your research for 8 years, until I was becoming crippled. 2 1/2 years on, my results are all good. Your "long term" research results on low carb are inconclusive & are related to sustainability, NOT effect. (Ally might update us [the Exeter study], but we are still waiting.) I am afraid to abandon low carb. I've too much good health to lose.
Them: If it works for you, fine, but we have to recommend the findings of research.

 

[justfoundout]

Hey there
For me the starchy carbs are the devils work. Test your blood sugar after a meal based on nhs diet advice and prove it!
This disease does not have to be progressive if you keep you bs under control. For me that is below 7 after meals.
Keep researching there is loads to learn.

 

[ebony321]

Hi folks. I'm 42 and a newly diagnosed Type 2 (diet only at present - my initial bloods were 7.1)). So i've started to read as much as i can on the net and yesterday saw the nurse specialist. I am somewhat perplexed though not surprised at the amount of conflicting info you read on the net. The one that perplexes me the most is the subject of starchy carbs. I exercise a lot so have always had carbs for the energy and the information leaflet the nurse gave me emphasises having starchy carbs with each meal. However, i've read a lot of stuff that depicts bread, rice , pasta etc as the enemy, stuff for example where people reverse diabetes through a vegetarian diet and so on. I'm also a bit deflated by the GP and nurse both repeatedly saying that the illness is 'progressive',i'm quite motivated to do whatever it takes to stay well and this sort of made me feel like they were saying that whatever you do you'll lose in the end. Would appreciate your wisdom and experience. This website is a great resource.

Hi,

Everybody is different. some people follow a low carb diet as they can't have lots of 'starchy carbs' without paying the consequences which being elevated blood glucose levels afterwards. Some people follow the NHS advice on diet and succeed with good control too.

It's all about testing your blood glucose to see what you personally can tolerate without medication. With most conditions, illnesses and diaseases somebody will alsways have a different opinion on how to best control, treat and cure them.

if you exercise alot you may still need to eat some carbs to give your body the energy it needs. But be aware exercise can also elevate your levels too!

It's great your so positive in controlling your diabetes the best you can!!

Type 2 diabetes you could say for some people can be prgressive, for some people diet and exercise no longer is suitable to control their diabetes so turn to oral medication and sometimes insulin too.

But don't be deflated about it. it's just what you have to do to keep yourself nice and healthy. There's no shame in having to take medication and doesn't make you any lesser of a person than someone who is able to control diabetes with just diet and exercise.

I'm sure you'll find lots of useful things here and eventually decide what information is useful to you in the way you find best suits you and your choices in controlling your diabetes well.

good luck!

 

[cugila]

Hi folks. I'm 42 and a newly diagnosed Type 2 (diet only at present - my initial bloods were 7.1)). So i've started to read as much as i can on the net and yesterday saw the nurse specialist. I am somewhat perplexed though not surprised at the amount of conflicting info you read on the net. The one that perplexes me the most is the subject of starchy carbs. I exercise a lot so have always had carbs for the energy and the information leaflet the nurse gave me emphasises having starchy carbs with each meal. However, i've read a lot of stuff that depicts bread, rice , pasta etc as the enemy, stuff for example where people reverse diabetes through a vegetarian diet and so on. I'm also a bit deflated by the GP and nurse both repeatedly saying that the illness is 'progressive',i'm quite motivated to do whatever it takes to stay well and this sort of made me feel like they were saying that whatever you do you'll lose in the end. Would appreciate your wisdom and experience. This website is a great resource.

Don't let anybody convince you that Diabetes is progressive. It's only that if you don't control it. Many here control their Diabetes using various methods and they are not suffering complications or have even reversed them. You have to take control and in that way you will decide what happens.........here is the advice we offer to newly diagnosed Diabetic's. Have read and any questions just ask.

Here is the advice we usually give to newly diagnosed diabetics. We hope that these few ideas gained through experience help you to gain control and give you some understanding of Diabetes. This forum doesn't always follow the recommended dietary advice, you have to work out what works for you as we are all different.

It's not just 'sugars' you need to avoid, diabetes is an inability to process glucose properly. Carbohydrate converts, in the body, to glucose. So it makes sense to reduce the amount of carbohydrate that you eat which includes sugars.

The main carbs to avoid OR reduce are the complex or starchy carbohydrates such as bread, potatoes, pasta, rice, starchy root veg and also any flour based products. The starchy carbs all convert 100% to glucose in the body and raise the blood sugar levels significantly.

If you are on Insulin you may find that reducing the carb intake also means that you can reduce your dose of insulin. This can help you to keep weight gain down as Insulin tends to make you put on weight and eventually cause insulin resistance. This should be done slowly so as not to cause hypos.

The way to find out how different foods affect you is to do regular daily testing and keep a food diary for a couple of weeks. If you test just before eating, then two hours after eating, you will see the effect of certain foods on your blood glucose levels. Some foods, which are slow acting carbohydrates, are absorbed more slowly so you may need to test three or even four hours later to see the effect that these have on your blood glucose levels.

Buy yourself a carb counter book (you can get these on-line) and you will be able to work out how much carbs you are eating, when you test, the reading two hours after should be roughly the same as the before eating reading, if it is then that meal was fine, if it isn’t then you need to check what you have eaten and think about reducing the portion size of carbs.

When you are buying products check the total carbohydrate content, this includes the sugar content. Do not just go by the amount of sugar on the packaging as this is misleading to a diabetic.

As for a tester, try asking the nurse/doctor and explain that you want to be proactive in managing your own diabetes and therefore need to test so that you can see just how foods affect your blood sugar levels. Hopefully this will work! Sometimes they are not keen to give Type 2’s the strips on prescription, (in the UK) but you can but try !! If you are an Insulin user in theory you should have no problem getting test strips.

The latest 2010 NICE guidelines for Bg levels are as follows:
Fasting (waking).......between 4 - 7 mmol/l. (Type 1 & 2)
2 hrs after meals......no more than 8.5 mmol/l. ( Type 2)

2hrs after meals....... no more than 9 mmol/l (Type 1)

If you are able to keep the post meal numbers lower, so much the better.

It also helps if you can do 30 minutes moderate exercise a day. It doesn't have to be strenuous.

The above is just general advice and it is recommended that you discuss with your HCP before making any changes. You can also ask questions on the forum on anything that is not clear.

Ken / Sue.

 

[mcmoby69]

The way to find out how different foods affect you is to do regular daily testing and keep a food diary for a couple of weeks. If you test just before eating, then two hours after eating, you will see the effect of certain foods on your blood glucose levels. Some foods, which are slow acting carbohydrates, are absorbed more slowly so you may need to test three or even four hours later to see the effect that these have on your blood glucose levels.

During my nine years as a diabetic i was first told to test at 2hrs post prandial. however i have learned in the last two years that i have been missing higher spikes that occur at one hour post prandial. now if the whole idea of controlling diabetes is to avoid the spikes i would have thought that testing at two hours and missing the spike would lead to many diabetics continuing to eat a diet that they thought was healthy. when in reality they missed the peak at one hour. from personal experience i know i did.

the only food that seems to act slower than 2hrs is pizza. (for me anyway) depending on your own digestive system and whether or not you suffer from gastroparaesis or maybe even taking byetta. your digestive system may vary significantly from any 'official' advice .

i would suggest people test at 1hr then 2hrs, to 'catch those spikes' if you find that you dont spike at one hour then i would suggest 15 min intervals just to make sure you dont miss any spikes till the two hour mark. i know i find my spikes at 1hr .

disclaimer, i am not medically qualified, i just wander thru the world of diabetes learning what i can. not beleiving everything that is thrown at me.

 

[sugarless sue]

Thank you for pointing this out, you will find many threads on the subject of one hour spikes on the forum if you do a search on the subject. The purpose of the above quoted part of our general advice is for newly diagnosed diabetics. They are given the basics simply, as they are new, confused and probably suffering from information overload when they get here.

The 'Pizza effect' is also a much discussed topic here and can take over 4 hours or longer to reach it's peak because of the high fat content.

Sugarless Sue.
Forum Monitor.

 

[cugila]

As Sue says the subject of one hour spikes has been discussed here at length over the time this Forum has been in existence. Yes, it's true that a spike can occur at such intervals, it can also occur at other lengthier intervals too, sometimes hours longer.

In my 13 yrs as a Diabetic I have had spikes at all sorts of times, however a spike is nowhere near as bad as the continuous high Bg levels sustained especially after meals by poorly controlled Diabetic's. That is why the majority of the time and in most medical circles a two hour test is recommended when first starting to test and try to gain an understanding of what is happening to your own body. After two hours the levels should ideally be almost back to normal.....if they are not then that is indicative that something needs adjusting, carbs and/or medications.

As Sue says it is basic advice designed for new members, who we do not wish to confuse as they are usually well confused already. However, I am sure they will appreciate your input but we do not intend to change our advice any time soon.

Thanks again.

cugila
Forum Monitor

 

[Pattidevans]

Cugila
I am very sorry but I find you so very over prescriptive! Surely one should "eat to one's meter" and as such one should decide one's own limits,

You correct knowledgeable people all the time. I would prefer to find a softer management approach where well experienced members are allowed to make a contribution. We are indeed all very different and our experiences are different. However, if this if your forum approach I find it rather lacking in understanding. Each to their own.

 

[cugila]

Hi Patti.
So nice to see you and your troops around tonight. We do value your input. However on this Forum we offer our advice which in the main is well accepted.

What you do on your Forum is up to you my dear. I am sure your members appreciate your wise words.

Perhaps you should read the rules of this Forum about criticism of Monitor's and Moderator's. They are very clear.

cugila
Forum Monitor

 

[catherinecherub]

Was it a full moon last night?
Ken and Sue do an excellent job here and are always ready to help anyone. Why they have to be continually knocked by members is beyond me. If you don't like the advice they give then don't follow it. If you have an issue with it then there is always the pm system rather than trying to belittle them publicly.
They give their time freely and a bit of politeness wouldn't go amiss from some people. They are human too and don't need all this aggro and it must be very soul destroying for them.

 

[sugarless sue]

Cugila
I am very sorry but I find you so very over prescriptive! Surely one should "eat to one's meter" and as such one should decide one's own limits,

To eat to your meter you first need to know about carbs and their effect on your blood sugars. Many members who first join here have no knowledge of 'carbs' they have only been told about 'sugars'.
There are many posts on this forum, some by me, explaining about eating to your meter but our initial post is a basic guideline for all diabetics.

You correct knowledgeable people all the time. I would prefer to find a softer management approach where well experienced members are allowed to make a contribution.

We have many knowledgable members on this forum, their advice is greatly appreciated by the members. However it is one of our jobs to check the facts and keep the information as up to date as possible. This forum prides itself on giving correct and complete information wherever possible.

We are indeed all very different and our experiences are different. However, if this if your forum approach I find it rather lacking in understanding. Each to their own.

You will find many supportive and helpful posts on this forum if you care to look. Lack of understanding ? That is your opinion.
You run another forum with a different ethos to ours, the rules of this forum are different to yours as you say each to their own. Please respect that.

 

[lovinglife]

I am very sorry but I find you so very over prescriptive! Surely one should "eat to one's meter" and as such one should decide one's own limits,

Many newly diagnosed T2's arrive here not having a meter and never tested themselves - a few don't even know they exist!

giving advice begins at the beginning - not half way through - which can confuse and scare even more

I have never had my "advice" corrected by Sue or Ken (who do a great job by the way)- maybe a wrong fact but never my opinion

I visit many Diabetes forums - none are as widely used as this one or have such diversity in advice leading the reader to research and make up their own minds and manage their own condition their own way

 

[cugila]

Was it a full moon last night?
Ken and Sue do an excellent job here and are always ready to help anyone. Why they have to be continually knocked by members is beyond me. If you don't like the advice they give then don't follow it. If you have an issue with it then there is always the pm system rather than trying to belittle them publicly.
They give their time freely and a bit of politeness wouldn't go amiss from some people. They are human too and don't need all this aggro and it must be very soul destroying for them.

Catherine.
Yes.......we wondered if it was boring on their own Forum so they decided to 'have a pop' at us, me in particular here. We have also had attempts to undermine us via pm's too. Seems we must be doing something right after all........if it get's up certain individual's noses.

Ken

Patti.
Keep your 'troops' in order and there is no problem........try the same thing again and we will not just suspend, we will ban. Just so we are clear about this.

What may have been acceptable here in the past is no longer tolerated. Firm action is now taken against those that seek to undermine and criticise us. That applies to ALL members. There is a procedure set out if you wish to challenge a Monitor or a Moderator which should be followed.

As you say, 'Each to their own.' Please don't attempt to try and impose the 'standards' on your own Forum here.

We have our own, very high standards. Set by the Administrator. You have a problem, take it up with him. I am sure you know how to contact him ?

cugila
Forum Monitor