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Newly diagnosed T2

Bertyboy said:
It means balanced for your own individual dietary needs.
I think saying "avoid dieticians" is also dangerous advice to give anyone diagnosed with a chronic metabolic disease like diabetes. It's like saying "avoid diabetic nurses" or "avoid GPs". None of them necessarily have all the answers nor are on the cutting edge of medical research, but they are professionals who continuously study their field and dispense generally accepted wisdom within the context of their individual patient analysis. Yes, this changes over time as research evolves. Yes, it hasn't been correct sometimes. No, they are not in the thrall of the food industry.
The alternative to listening to professional dieticians is either proceeding with no information or having some magic crystal ball to know whose "amazing research" to put ones trust in. Dispensing any advice such as practically cutting out an entire food group should ring alarm bells to anyone.
Nobody is poo-pooing LCHF diets. Cutting out all carbs though is potentially dangerous to ones health.
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I have to ask for medical references to support your opinion.
"Potentially dangerous" is a very strong use of words.
 
Bertyboy said:
It's like saying "avoid diabetic nurses" or "avoid GPs".
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I do my darndest to avoid them as well as I have found them to be way behind the times and in my experience give misleading information.

Bertyboy said:
Cutting out all carbs though is potentially dangerous to ones health.
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Not convinced by that either. Certainly doesn't seem to harm the people who live without them quite happily.
 
LittleGreyCat said:
I have to ask for medical references to support your opinion.
"Potentially dangerous" is a very strong use of words.
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070619173537.htm

I think it is no stronger than saying "all carbs are bad carbs" to a newly diagnosed person. Some people may be OK on a zero dietary carb diet. However, that shouldn't (IMHO) be a de facto recommendation for everyone, because it may not suit them in the long term.
Look, I'm doing a low-carb diet myself, but I'm being very careful not be evangelical about it, or any other diet.
 
bulkbiker said:
I do my darndest to avoid them as well as I have found them to be way behind the times and in my experience give misleading information.



Not convinced by that either. Certainly doesn't seem to harm the people who live without them quite happily.
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Perhaps I should have ignored the GP who diagnosed diabetes in the first place? I should have stewed in my own ketone acids and I'd have been better off?

What is it with this distrust of "experts" and "professionals" these days? Have we stopped accepting that they *can* be wrong without being useless? Whose "expertise" are you relying on for assertions such as carbs are unnecessary?
 
Bertyboy said:
Have we stopped accepting that they *can* be wrong without being useless?
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They can indeed be wrong however why should I trust someone who is so wrong about what they have just told me I have? Telling me I have a condition and then telling me how to deal with it which will in fact make it worse is not only useless but surely dangerous don't you think? Should I then forgive them?
As for the expertise on carbs please tell me which carbs are essential?
I have had to educate myself as almost all the HCP's I have come across in relation to Type 2 have been totally useless.
 
All my adult life I have struggled against gaining weight and been advised to eat more carbohydrate, less fat and exercise more. I have been screamed at accused of lying - gorging was always in there somewhere too - all my fault that I was fat.
I was always telling them that their diets did not work - on low calorie regimes I went weak and pale (my usual complexion is rather florid) but they were right I was wrong.
They even put my own and my second child's lives at risk in my second pregnancy by pushing me to eat carbs under the threat of being hospitalized and 'fed properly' - that is when I learned to lie to doctors.
The advice given in the diabetes education sessions was frankly laughable, if it was not for the poor couple who were so worried about his BG being in the twenties all the time I'd have left the second one. I did manage to speak to them afterwards, but they weren't there at the third meeting.
I do evangelize the low carb diet, I know, but I stick to it and I'm getting normal results.
 
LittleGreyCat said:
@BurnleyMark
Just to bring in an example of someone who doesn't find carbohydrates essential.
There are races who traditionally live a healthy lifestyle with little or no carbohydrates, the Inuit being a prime example.

I think the definition of a "well balanced diet" is the subject of endless speculation.
Fibre is generally good, although not counted as carbohydrate on the UK food labels.
Whatever, eat what works for you. :)
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[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][COLOR=#ff0000]@BurnleyM[/COLOR] - the last sentence in [COLOR=#ff0000]@LittleGreyCat's[/COLOR] post is the key one in this discussion, in my opinion. No carbs, low carbs, medium carbs - you and your body are different from everyone else on this Forum. Everyone. It takes a while to get over the shock of diagnosis, and it certainly takes a while to work out what is best for you. There is great help and support throughout on here, but try not to take everything in at once. I came to this website after being left to my own devices after diagnosis, and went very low-carb straight away. For me, too low-carb all at once! It works for others, but not for me so I upped it a bit - all hail Lidl protein rolls.... - in other words, take your time to find out what works (if that is ok for you): with obviously cutting out spuds, pasta, rice, bread etc, you are definitely starting out on the right track - keep going and you'll get there! As for GPs, DNs and others: some are 'on message' and brilliant, some are tacit but for various reasons (politics/guidelines etc) don't openly support low-carb, and others are hopeless, worryingly so. But the message is, slowly, getting out there and I do hope that you have a supportive GP/DN. Welcome to the Forum![/COLOR]

Edited to highlight usernames and to change font. Haven't a clue what's going on.....

 
Bertyboy said:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070619173537.htm

I think it is no stronger than saying "all carbs are bad carbs" to a newly diagnosed person. Some people may be OK on a zero dietary carb diet. However, that shouldn't (IMHO) be a de facto recommendation for everyone, because it may not suit them in the long term.
Look, I'm doing a low-carb diet myself, but I'm being very careful not be evangelical about it, or any other diet.
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Interesting article.
The study seems more sensible than many, as the lowest carbohydrate ratio was 66:30:4 for fat:protein:carbs which is not that far off the recommended 80:15:5 for the LCHF diet. Many low carbohydrate studies do not increase the fat and protein when they cut the carbs.

I do note that they did not quantify the risk due to the change in gut bacteria.
There is another thread going about processed meats, where the numbers suggest that the risk is pretty low and the change does not make that much difference.

I also noted that the study was on obese men. Mainly, as I understand it, since they were investigating possible risks to obese people from one variant of a weight loss diet.

I would have been happier with the study if it included both men and women, and also people of normal weight. I would also have liked to have seen how long they were on each diet, and how long it took them to recover the original flora on the maintenance diet. Only 19 participants, as well, so probably limited by the available budget. However it is an interesting study.

I'm not convinced that this study justifies the term "dangerous" though.
 
LittleGreyCat said:
I'm not convinced that this study justifies the term "dangerous" though.
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I'll point out that I said "potentially dangerous", which it is if has the potential to result in bowel cancer for some people. Again, this study is not denigrating low carb diets. All study adds to the pool of knowledge. I'm just making the point that there is no more evidence for the statement "all carbs are bad" than for any other absolute statement.
As with medical advice, such suggestions on here should be properly qualified.
 
Bertyboy said:
I'll point out that I said "potentially dangerous", which it is if has the potential to result in bowel cancer for some people. Again, this study is not denigrating low carb diets. All study adds to the pool of knowledge. I'm just making the point that there is no more evidence for the statement "all carbs are bad" than for any other absolute statement.
As with medical advice, such suggestions on here should be properly qualified.
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Should I point out in return that I said "You may find"?
 
I would just like to add that Dr. David Unwin has had smashing results with his approach to diet and T2. Although he shys away from controversy by not calling the diet low carb he has in any case seen such success that he, his wife his staff and most of his T2 patients are on the lower carb regime. The number of GPs following suit grows.
 
Isn't there an assumption that the 'normal' gut flora is the one which is seen when people eat carbs at the 'normal' level.
Is there a 'normal' for low carbing?
As I am never going to be eating the usual amount of carbs - I have not done so for decades as I put on weigh so fast at anything over 60 gm per day - my gut is not going to be normal either, ever.
 
Perhaps we shouldn't compare the extremely low carb diet of the 'olden' tribes of Inuit, Sami and Masai to the astronomically high carb western diet? I think that as people with Diabetes some measure of a lowered carb intake is wise, where we draw the line in how low we go is a matter of personal comfort and bg levels.
 
Resurgam said:
Moss?
I don't think that seals and fish eat much moss.
Are you confusing them with reindeer herders - the Saami, I think they are called.
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Quotation from http://www.sfu.ca/archaeology-old/museum/danielle_longhouse/keepers/food.htm
"Inuit ate only meat and fish. Lichens and moss were the only types of vegetation that grew in the Arctic. The Inuit people did not want to eat the lichens and moss right off the rocks. (Yuck! I don't think you would like to eat moss either!) There was one way that the Inuit could get the nutrients that they needed from vegetation and this might surprise you! Caribou like to eat moss and lichens. When Inuit hunters killed a caribou, they opened up its stomach to see if the caribou had eaten any lichens and moss. If some of this partially digested vegetation was in the stomach, the Inuit would eat it to get the nutrients they needed. This was a delicacy, which means that it was very special and very desired."
 
Alexandra100 said:
Quotation from http://www.sfu.ca/archaeology-old/museum/danielle_longhouse/keepers/food.htm
"Inuit ate only meat and fish. Lichens and moss were the only types of vegetation that grew in the Arctic. The Inuit people did not want to eat the lichens and moss right off the rocks. (Yuck! I don't think you would like to eat moss either!) There was one way that the Inuit could get the nutrients that they needed from vegetation and this might surprise you! Caribou like to eat moss and lichens. When Inuit hunters killed a caribou, they opened up its stomach to see if the caribou had eaten any lichens and moss. If some of this partially digested vegetation was in the stomach, the Inuit would eat it to get the nutrients they needed. This was a delicacy, which means that it was very special and very desired."
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In my opinion nutrients and carbs are two different things. There are essential nutrients but there is no such thing as an essential carb.
 
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