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The problem is rather pervasive in high carbs Asian population.
NHK Documentary on Glucose Spikes
- Thread starter kokhongw
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Mbaker
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Thank you ever so much @kokhongw, what an informative video. I won't be trying the rice thing. I would have liked the presenters to have shown the effect on insulin of having an extended but not as spikey glucose period. But overall an accessible programme with startling statistics which show that neither fasting blood glucose (and possibly A1c) are the be all and end all, it is important not to spike.
Mr_Pot
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A very interesting documentary, thanks @kokhongw a lot of points for discussion:
1. The report was about non-diabetics having harmful glucose spikes which are not detected because their HbA1c is ok and BG tests are carried out after fasting. Is this pre-diabetes or something new?
2. I am a diet controlled T2D and I definitely spike if I have a something high carb like mashed potato, however using their test for risk of glucose spikes I had a score of 2 when under 9 was low risk.
3. Most of the glucose spike tests they did were 2 hours after eating, so those people who had glucose spikes would “fail” the post-prandial tests we do, even though they were not diabetic.
4. At about 39 mins into the documentary they state that the risk of glucose spikes is greatly increased by skipping meals (fasting). No doubt @bulkbiker @CherryAA et al will have some comments on this.
5. The part about the sequence of eating affecting the glucose spike was very interesting. I hope that somebody with continuous monitoring will be inspired to experiment with this idea and report back.
1. The report was about non-diabetics having harmful glucose spikes which are not detected because their HbA1c is ok and BG tests are carried out after fasting. Is this pre-diabetes or something new?
2. I am a diet controlled T2D and I definitely spike if I have a something high carb like mashed potato, however using their test for risk of glucose spikes I had a score of 2 when under 9 was low risk.
3. Most of the glucose spike tests they did were 2 hours after eating, so those people who had glucose spikes would “fail” the post-prandial tests we do, even though they were not diabetic.
4. At about 39 mins into the documentary they state that the risk of glucose spikes is greatly increased by skipping meals (fasting). No doubt @bulkbiker @CherryAA et al will have some comments on this.
5. The part about the sequence of eating affecting the glucose spike was very interesting. I hope that somebody with continuous monitoring will be inspired to experiment with this idea and report back.
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@Mr_Pot
Many good points raised. Still they are largely glucose centric, not insulin centric. If they actually measure insulin spike, the population risks may be even higher...
I enjoyed their explanation about how elevated insulin level is related to amyloid plaque formation...their glucose spikes leads to insulin spikes that crosses the BBB and requires the brain to neutralize it, leaving it less efficient in removing amyloid-beta protein @17:00.
Their observation of the increased glucose spikes after fasting (skipping breakfast or lunch) would hold true for those who continue with high carbs meals...but would likely not apply to those of us on low carb. I wonder what is the data for skipping dinner...but skipping dinner is often socially difficult.
Yes I look forward to testing the meal sequence with a Libre monitor
Many good points raised. Still they are largely glucose centric, not insulin centric. If they actually measure insulin spike, the population risks may be even higher...
I enjoyed their explanation about how elevated insulin level is related to amyloid plaque formation...their glucose spikes leads to insulin spikes that crosses the BBB and requires the brain to neutralize it, leaving it less efficient in removing amyloid-beta protein @17:00.
Their observation of the increased glucose spikes after fasting (skipping breakfast or lunch) would hold true for those who continue with high carbs meals...but would likely not apply to those of us on low carb. I wonder what is the data for skipping dinner...but skipping dinner is often socially difficult.
Yes I look forward to testing the meal sequence with a Libre monitor
CherryAA
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Thanks for posting this @kokhongw - lots of things in here that contribute to the theory I have that it might not be the blood glucose spikes per se that is the disease, its the high circulating insulin the body is producing in attempting and failing to control those spikes that causes all the damage. Thus the disease is actually high circulating insulin which is created because modern processed foods and vegetable oils require much more insulin to process than real foods .
I remain astonished that Fasting Insulin is not simply part of standard testing. (Followed by a Kraft insulin OGTT test if its abnormal)
In particular that they did not test the fasting insulin of everyone involved that had spiked . It would be interesting to correlate if the 20 people identified had insulin under 6 iUI/ml . or indeed the guy with a heart attack.
It takes a lot longer to clear insulin out of the body than glucose- it seems quite likely to me that the glucose spike occurs because there was not enough insulin produced to deal with it - but that insulin was still a lot ( ie the body will try to deal with the glucose it as much as it can ) . Thus people suffering from them, have probably got a lot more circulating insulin than others.
Asia continually appears to be a bit of a confounder in that it is a high carb society - so how can it even exist if LCHF can work?.
I think that is a lot to do with the growth of vegetable oil usage in recent times.
At 7:13 - it clearly states that it is the insulin that promotes dementia , not the glucose spike .
In my view this simply reinforces the view that I hold that too much insulin is the disease - not operating efficiently enough and it is that which cases the glucose spike - because the individual has already started on the path of insulin resistance .
I have personally arrived at the conclusion that high circulating insulin is the disease. The cause is too much om 6 vegetable oils coupled with high refined flours and there is little I've read anywhere that does not fit into this scenario.
at 24 minutes, I totally buy into the fact that "slimness " is so important these days and these people have low muscle mass - I don't see that as a function of being too slim, instead I think a big factor in the lack of muscle mass comes from the development of extremely low fat diets and as such it can happen to people who are also overweight.
at 27 minutes, I can personally relate to the lack of sleep being an issue, having been a workaholic for many years. Once again though they mention the role that melatonin triggers the release of insulin - this is the ONLY place I've read so far that come up with a result that something is likely to reduce levels of insulin in the body. so its a pity that they didn't test the level of fasting insulin in those who they stated had become prediabetic in a week - especially as Kraft posits on the basis of thousands of subjects that the first stage will be a sharp rise in insulin produced and this circulating insulin.
at 31 minutes they discuss how children now have increasing levels of glucose in the blood . I would be amazed if this was not accompanies by a similar increase in the level of insulin to deal with it.
Studies have shown ( ref in my blog) that if you have a fasting insulin level of over 8 iUI/ml then there is an 80% likelihood that you will be prediabetic. The NORMAL range given for this is 2-25 - Normal is the range of the general population. i.e. the average person is well over one standard deviation away from the Optimal level of 2-6 and the vast majority its sky high.
At 32 minutes they talk about how insulin is hardly being secreted in unhealthy mice. I think this might be missing the point . Yes this is what eventually happens,but my own insulin levels as a " standard T2 diabetic " were sky high on diagnosis and had only come down to 20 after 6 months on lchf. It took another 6 months to get down to 8.3 After two year @bulbiker is now recording 3.9 (an ideal number). I think for a lot of people with T2 diabetes, they are given more insulin very quickly when they already have a lot of it . As such I think research like this on short lived animals gets to end stage effects too quickly and that leads researcher to assume that individuals with diabetes don't have much circulating insulin when they probably already do, just massive resistance to it.
In my own case having taken part in Prof Tim Noakes study I postulated the theory that fasting insulin levels would be directly correlated to the time spent on an LCHF diet. This had not been in the original results from the study, but they went back and produced the data for me. They then wrote to me to say that yes its true - it is so correlated and that they find that very surprising.
Control of blood glucose and reawakening the pancreas - This is precisely why I think that a real foods low carb diet is MORE likely to "cure" diabetes than the 8 week Newcastle diet.(or faster if both do) If it is getting blood glucose right down that causes the pancreas to wake up then if one embarks on a diet that loses weight but leaves glucose higher than it would otherwise be on a standard LCHF diet, then that diet must surely be worse than one that both loses weight and reduces glucose more?
At 35 minutes they discuss eating vegetables first before rice to prevent sugar levels rising. Dr Jason Fung is quite big on mitigating spikes via food order - he suggests using vinegar - that is why I've added in apple cider vinegar before my mega meals . I find this part quite funny really. I guess if one is Japanese, then finding a way to keep rice in the diet might be important however in general application terms for the western world, its really saying, eat veg and proteins and only if you really can't fill up on those, should you bother with the rice or bread. I doubt there are many westerners would truly hanker for a slice of bread after the steak in a restaurant, or suddenly order a bowl of plain rice at the end of a meal !
At 39 minutes - the comments about fasting may be true of people eating a carb. heavy diet. Its certainly not true for anyone with similar characteristics to me as a diabetic. Since I began the one meal a day thing, the result has been lower overnight fasting, lower morning liver dump, lower post prandial high after the meal and lower average glucose for the days per libre and posted on the thread "The Insulin Diet"
At 44 minutes, I love the idea that one should consult a doctor and nutritionist first before adopting a low carb diet. It might work for some of us, but not many .
At 45 minutes - they discuss walking directly after a meal.
This is something that became crystal clear to me today. Yesterday had my mega meal and went swimming shortly thereafter. Today I had didn't do any exercise and my post meal high was actually lower today than yesterday commensurate with the lower fasting levels, however it did take me longer before the figures went back to fasting levels. so I had already decided to build that into my daily routine a standard. One advantage of doing one meal a day with the libre, is that one can see exactly what is different day to day.
Having watched this documentary I remain utterly bemused. Both @bulkbiker and I had our fasting insulin tested without fuss. For both of us it correlated with expectations and illustrated the improvements that our diet and lifestyle had made on the result.
Whilst studies on the subject are sparse, the ones that are available confirm that metabolically healthy individuals will have low levels of fasting insulin and low rates of all types of diseases so WHY -did the medical profession not adopt fasting insulin as a standard health marker? Kraft was doing insulin studies years ago.
In my opinion if the world had adopted testing fasting insulin as a standard / as well/ instead of the useless total cholesterol number which most of us know off my heart then the world would look a very different place than it now does. We have wasted 40 years as a result.
I just don't get it .
very interesting documentary though !
I remain astonished that Fasting Insulin is not simply part of standard testing. (Followed by a Kraft insulin OGTT test if its abnormal)
In particular that they did not test the fasting insulin of everyone involved that had spiked . It would be interesting to correlate if the 20 people identified had insulin under 6 iUI/ml . or indeed the guy with a heart attack.
It takes a lot longer to clear insulin out of the body than glucose- it seems quite likely to me that the glucose spike occurs because there was not enough insulin produced to deal with it - but that insulin was still a lot ( ie the body will try to deal with the glucose it as much as it can ) . Thus people suffering from them, have probably got a lot more circulating insulin than others.
Asia continually appears to be a bit of a confounder in that it is a high carb society - so how can it even exist if LCHF can work?.
I think that is a lot to do with the growth of vegetable oil usage in recent times.
At 7:13 - it clearly states that it is the insulin that promotes dementia , not the glucose spike .
In my view this simply reinforces the view that I hold that too much insulin is the disease - not operating efficiently enough and it is that which cases the glucose spike - because the individual has already started on the path of insulin resistance .
I have personally arrived at the conclusion that high circulating insulin is the disease. The cause is too much om 6 vegetable oils coupled with high refined flours and there is little I've read anywhere that does not fit into this scenario.
at 24 minutes, I totally buy into the fact that "slimness " is so important these days and these people have low muscle mass - I don't see that as a function of being too slim, instead I think a big factor in the lack of muscle mass comes from the development of extremely low fat diets and as such it can happen to people who are also overweight.
at 27 minutes, I can personally relate to the lack of sleep being an issue, having been a workaholic for many years. Once again though they mention the role that melatonin triggers the release of insulin - this is the ONLY place I've read so far that come up with a result that something is likely to reduce levels of insulin in the body. so its a pity that they didn't test the level of fasting insulin in those who they stated had become prediabetic in a week - especially as Kraft posits on the basis of thousands of subjects that the first stage will be a sharp rise in insulin produced and this circulating insulin.
at 31 minutes they discuss how children now have increasing levels of glucose in the blood . I would be amazed if this was not accompanies by a similar increase in the level of insulin to deal with it.
Studies have shown ( ref in my blog) that if you have a fasting insulin level of over 8 iUI/ml then there is an 80% likelihood that you will be prediabetic. The NORMAL range given for this is 2-25 - Normal is the range of the general population. i.e. the average person is well over one standard deviation away from the Optimal level of 2-6 and the vast majority its sky high.
At 32 minutes they talk about how insulin is hardly being secreted in unhealthy mice. I think this might be missing the point . Yes this is what eventually happens,but my own insulin levels as a " standard T2 diabetic " were sky high on diagnosis and had only come down to 20 after 6 months on lchf. It took another 6 months to get down to 8.3 After two year @bulbiker is now recording 3.9 (an ideal number). I think for a lot of people with T2 diabetes, they are given more insulin very quickly when they already have a lot of it . As such I think research like this on short lived animals gets to end stage effects too quickly and that leads researcher to assume that individuals with diabetes don't have much circulating insulin when they probably already do, just massive resistance to it.
In my own case having taken part in Prof Tim Noakes study I postulated the theory that fasting insulin levels would be directly correlated to the time spent on an LCHF diet. This had not been in the original results from the study, but they went back and produced the data for me. They then wrote to me to say that yes its true - it is so correlated and that they find that very surprising.
Control of blood glucose and reawakening the pancreas - This is precisely why I think that a real foods low carb diet is MORE likely to "cure" diabetes than the 8 week Newcastle diet.(or faster if both do) If it is getting blood glucose right down that causes the pancreas to wake up then if one embarks on a diet that loses weight but leaves glucose higher than it would otherwise be on a standard LCHF diet, then that diet must surely be worse than one that both loses weight and reduces glucose more?
At 35 minutes they discuss eating vegetables first before rice to prevent sugar levels rising. Dr Jason Fung is quite big on mitigating spikes via food order - he suggests using vinegar - that is why I've added in apple cider vinegar before my mega meals . I find this part quite funny really. I guess if one is Japanese, then finding a way to keep rice in the diet might be important however in general application terms for the western world, its really saying, eat veg and proteins and only if you really can't fill up on those, should you bother with the rice or bread. I doubt there are many westerners would truly hanker for a slice of bread after the steak in a restaurant, or suddenly order a bowl of plain rice at the end of a meal !
At 39 minutes - the comments about fasting may be true of people eating a carb. heavy diet. Its certainly not true for anyone with similar characteristics to me as a diabetic. Since I began the one meal a day thing, the result has been lower overnight fasting, lower morning liver dump, lower post prandial high after the meal and lower average glucose for the days per libre and posted on the thread "The Insulin Diet"
At 44 minutes, I love the idea that one should consult a doctor and nutritionist first before adopting a low carb diet. It might work for some of us, but not many .
At 45 minutes - they discuss walking directly after a meal.
This is something that became crystal clear to me today. Yesterday had my mega meal and went swimming shortly thereafter. Today I had didn't do any exercise and my post meal high was actually lower today than yesterday commensurate with the lower fasting levels, however it did take me longer before the figures went back to fasting levels. so I had already decided to build that into my daily routine a standard. One advantage of doing one meal a day with the libre, is that one can see exactly what is different day to day.
Having watched this documentary I remain utterly bemused. Both @bulkbiker and I had our fasting insulin tested without fuss. For both of us it correlated with expectations and illustrated the improvements that our diet and lifestyle had made on the result.
Whilst studies on the subject are sparse, the ones that are available confirm that metabolically healthy individuals will have low levels of fasting insulin and low rates of all types of diseases so WHY -did the medical profession not adopt fasting insulin as a standard health marker? Kraft was doing insulin studies years ago.
In my opinion if the world had adopted testing fasting insulin as a standard / as well/ instead of the useless total cholesterol number which most of us know off my heart then the world would look a very different place than it now does. We have wasted 40 years as a result.
I just don't get it .
very interesting documentary though !
Anthony1738
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A great documentary, I never tire of learning, now I understand why my Doc is not interested in my FSB, hes only interested in after eating and what I eat, and the timing of the test, so thats one thing cleared up, my other point is that I strongly disagree with the findings of people who fasted had a large spike after their first meal post fasting. My experience with fasting show no such spike. My readings post meal fasting range from 95 to 126 taken between 90 mins and 2 hours after eating. Fasted from 18.00 hrs yesterday to 14.00 hrs today ate at 14.00 3 egg omellete with salad, just done the test 2 hours later reading 109.
Apart from that a great documentary, thanks for posting it.
Apart from that a great documentary, thanks for posting it.
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Jo_the_boat
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I don't think they took into account WHAT was eaten after a fast. If you eat a carbo-laden meal then surely you can expect a spike - or maybe I've missed the point? If you, Anthony, don't spike on omelette and salad during a non-fasting period, why should you expect one after fasting?
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Agree with your observation that their study likely based on higher carbs meals. So missing breakfast or lunch will cause the next meal to have higher glucose/insulin response. But if we are on low carbs, the effect is not seen or perhaps not relevant.
Still I hope someone would do a similar study with skipping dinner...followed by tracking "normal" breakfast..."healthy" cereals/porridge...
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Yes there seems to be some magician somewhere that had placed a cloak over the eyes of all these learned researchers and medical professionals...how is chronically elevated insulin level and response harmless?
Jo_the_boat
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Still an interesting watch though. They did seem to find a way to justify / accommodate rice within an Asian / eastern diet. I think I've read somewhere that Asian men, in particular, have a propensity towards high glucose / diabetes.
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I think genetically, there is limited fat cells. So the overflow capacity is just not in place and likely not suitable/designed for living in colder climate. So we see in the small sample size, many of the normal weight subjects had high glucose response.
Anthony1738
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Anthony1738
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Yes thats correct South East Asia Diabetes rates are on the up and up, but I dont think its the rice, I think its the fact that South East Asian Chefs, in restraunts and hotels plus the street vendors have discovered the benefits of MSG!, they buy the cheapest ingredients possible and load it with salts sugar and MSG. Also the large fast food companies have at last took off here big time, ten years ago you would not see a Local person in a fast food place, fast forward to today and they a full. And the final reason why diabetes is big here is the fact that they never stop eating, its not unusual for the average South East Asian to eat 5 or 6 times per day, Ive also noticed a marked increase in body mass too since Ive lived here.
Yes, the documentary touched on timing of carbs in the meal, to accommodate consumption of rice. Coincidentally, the results of the following study were released yesterday:
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2017...lood-sugars,-suggests-new-study-92417480.html
"Eating carbs at the end, rather than beginning, of a meal led to a 53 per cent lower AUC for blood glucose. Beneficial effects were also seen for insulin, which was lower, and the gut hormone glucagon-like peptide-1(GLP-1) whose levels increased."
Art Of Flowers
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The points that I got from the video were ...
The emphasis on cholesterol as a cause of CVD should perhaps to changed to identifying the cause of inflammation to which the body responds with cholesterol to fix the inflammation. Cholesterol is how the body repairs itself, so is a symptom, not the cause of atherosclerosis. Doctors seem to treating the symptoms, not the cause of heart problems and maybe they should be telling their patients to avoid glucose spikes.
- Excess Insulin can lead to Alzheimers
- Excess Glucose can lead to inflammation in the arteries which can lead to heart attacks
The emphasis on cholesterol as a cause of CVD should perhaps to changed to identifying the cause of inflammation to which the body responds with cholesterol to fix the inflammation. Cholesterol is how the body repairs itself, so is a symptom, not the cause of atherosclerosis. Doctors seem to treating the symptoms, not the cause of heart problems and maybe they should be telling their patients to avoid glucose spikes.
jpscloud
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I know this is a very old thread but I came across this documentary on iplayer (I think) and thought it might be worth a try for me, as I'm so far unable to reduce carbs to a level I would like.
Eliminating carbs triggered binges, and when not relapsed I am trying to find a way to eat as few carbs as possible (for me) while not triggering that deprived, rebound binge behaviour.
I've now had a few meals, the last two on OMAD, where I ate broccoli and either corned beef or lamb steak before some cooked and reheated new potatoes. I still had a spike, from high 4s mmol to 7s mmol 2 hours post meal but I'm going to keep trying with this because my FBG has been surprisingly lower than when just doing OMAD.
Not enough experimentation yet, and with my erratic eating I might not be a good test subject but I don't think it can do any harm to give it a go.
I think the documentary is worth a bump anyway.
I should also have added that I ate less new potatoes the more broccoli and meat I ate before them, and that might seem to go without saying for some people, but anything that has a satiating effect on my appetite is nothing short of miraculous.
Eliminating carbs triggered binges, and when not relapsed I am trying to find a way to eat as few carbs as possible (for me) while not triggering that deprived, rebound binge behaviour.
I've now had a few meals, the last two on OMAD, where I ate broccoli and either corned beef or lamb steak before some cooked and reheated new potatoes. I still had a spike, from high 4s mmol to 7s mmol 2 hours post meal but I'm going to keep trying with this because my FBG has been surprisingly lower than when just doing OMAD.
Not enough experimentation yet, and with my erratic eating I might not be a good test subject but I don't think it can do any harm to give it a go.
I think the documentary is worth a bump anyway.
I should also have added that I ate less new potatoes the more broccoli and meat I ate before them, and that might seem to go without saying for some people, but anything that has a satiating effect on my appetite is nothing short of miraculous.
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