NHS advice on low carbohydrate diets

TwoRivers

Well-Known Member
Messages
49
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Obesity.
When the local hospital got to hear that I am losing weight rapidly on a very careful low carbohydrate diet, they rang me up to see how I was getting along and wanted to check that I am getting 'all the nutrients'. I think I am -- green vegetables and about 50g of berries a day, all carefully weighed. Now they have followed it up with this pamphlet and I turned immediately to page seven which says how many carbs you should have a day. It is an amazing 130g minimum of carbs a day. Following this NHS pamphlet, published in 2016, would mean a reversion to eating some bread, cereals, potatoes etc. I have lost nearly 13 kg so far in less than three months by staying below 50g of carbs a day, though I am now losing only about 3.5 kg a month and am very satisfied with my general state of health and well-being. I accept their point about nutrients but I think I am taking good care of that. And I don't feel hungry.
My blood sugar levels have of course plunged to very very healthy ones and I am watching the protein content of my food, and am hopeful that my blood pressure is down too. They have never policed anything else that I have done -- and I would be grateful for more attention to my diabetes and blood pressure -- but now they seem to be doing exactly that in an attempt to have me eat carbohydrate I don't want. Can anyone think of a polite but crushing -- and completely science and research-based -- response to give when they ring up next and ask whether I am following their advice?
 

bulkbiker

BANNED
Messages
19,575
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Just refer them to the recently (yesterday) published PURE study..
The 130g of glucose that our brains (allegedly) need is easily supplied by the body from protein but this myth that we have to eat it simply refuses to die.
Alternatively tell them that as last time you looked you were in control of your body you will eat precisely what you want. Or are you under their care for something else?
 
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TwoRivers

Well-Known Member
Messages
49
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Obesity.
Thanks...no only the usual clutch of metabolic disorder-related diseases, which I mentioned, caused by serious obesity. But at a time when GPs are making us cut back on seeing consultants for anything but non-urgent purposes (I was seeinga cardiologist after a diabetes-related heart attack but when I admitted I was now doing fine, he said he was not allowed to see me again until 'something happened' and I went to A&E) it's extraordinary they waste time and money trying to push people to eat more carbohydrates. My GP sent me to see a dietitician some years back. Her main piece of advice was that I should reintroduce bread and grains to my diet. Needless to say I made no progress. Whereas with the LCHF diet, I am making good progress for the first time.

Do you have a URL reference for that report you mention? Thanks.
 
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LittleGreyCat

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,245
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Diet drinks - the artificial sweeteners taste vile.
Having to forswear foods I have loved all my life.
Trying to find low carb meals when eating out.
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Bluetit1802

Legend
Messages
25,216
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Just stick to what you know works for you. Nod and smile, be polite, go away and ignore them.
Presumably you have the full raft of blood tests when you have your HbA1c. I can see all my results on-line, but if you can't do this, then getting print outs is a good idea. You can then analyse all your blood results and see for yourself if they are all in the healthy range or teetering on the edge of not being healthy. I don't get routine vitamin and iron tests, but when I ask for them to be included the nurse/doctor obliges. This should be evidence enough that you are getting all the essential nutrients - otherwise things would show up.
 

CherryAA

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,171
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
When the local hospital got to hear that I am losing weight rapidly on a very careful low carbohydrate diet, they rang me up to see how I was getting along and wanted to check that I am getting 'all the nutrients'. I think I am -- green vegetables and about 50g of berries a day, all carefully weighed. Now they have followed it up with this pamphlet and I turned immediately to page seven which says how many carbs you should have a day. It is an amazing 130g minimum of carbs a day. Following this NHS pamphlet, published in 2016, would mean a reversion to eating some bread, cereals, potatoes etc. I have lost nearly 13 kg so far in less than three months by staying below 50g of carbs a day, though I am now losing only about 3.5 kg a month and am very satisfied with my general state of health and well-being. I accept their point about nutrients but I think I am taking good care of that. And I don't feel hungry.
My blood sugar levels have of course plunged to very very healthy ones and I am watching the protein content of my food, and am hopeful that my blood pressure is down too. They have never policed anything else that I have done -- and I would be grateful for more attention to my diabetes and blood pressure -- but now they seem to be doing exactly that in an attempt to have me eat carbohydrate I don't want. Can anyone think of a polite but crushing -- and completely science and research-based -- response to give when they ring up next and ask whether I am following their advice?


Looking at my cronometer and eating about 30 -40 g carbs from a diverse range of vegetables , seeds, nuts and dairy, plus 50-70g proteins from a diverse set of met, fish,nuts seees and dairy and the balance fats weighted towards omega 3 , its quite easy to record nutrition t 90+% of daily nutrition requirements for me ( 5 ft 7 woman) without any supplements . if you want to check for yourself if you are missing anything essential or need to supplement anywhere you can download it for free. I can pretty much guarantee that the same number of calories with 130g carbs will leave you much more nutrient poor.
 

derry60

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,196
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Rudeness,people being unkind
I was really lucky when I went to see the nurse regarding my increased sugar back end of June. I had received a letter telling me that my sugar was high and that I was at high risk of becoming type 2, this was in April this year. When I eventually went for my appointment I had already had decided to lose weight and try the low carb diet, so I had at that time just started to lose some weight. I told the nurse that I had lost weight and that I was doing Keto, to my surprise she said "Oh me also, I won't touch bread, pasta, rice, potatoes etc" She told me that she had lost weight and felt really well and her bloating feeling had gone. I told her about this forum and said how people are doing really well and lowering their Blood sugar levels. She fully agreed and said some of her patients have also been doing well on the low carb diet. So just goes to show. I have no idea what my doc would say as I have only seen her since diagnosed with high sugar.
 

Guzzler

Master
Messages
10,577
Type of diabetes
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Poor grammar, bullying and drunks.
Well done on your great progress. I would cite the weight loss, the lowered bg numbers and your improved overall sense of well being before politely stating that a carb rich diet would undo all of that and that a return to ill health from diabetes and all its concomitant risks is something that you cannot countenance.
Offer to have further tests if you have to but don't be swayed, you have found the right path for you and you are doing great.
 
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TwoRivers

Well-Known Member
Messages
49
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Obesity.
Looking at my cronometer and eating about 30 -40 g carbs from a diverse range of vegetables , seeds, nuts and dairy, plus 50-70g proteins from a diverse set of met, fish,nuts seees and dairy and the balance fats weighted towards omega 3 , its quite easy to record nutrition t 90+% of daily nutrition requirements for me ( 5 ft 7 woman) without any supplements . if you want to check for yourself if you are missing anything essential or need to supplement anywhere you can download it for free. I can pretty much guarantee that the same number of calories with 130g carbs will leave you much more nutrient poor.
Thanks..very helpful. I use FatSecret which gives me a pretty good overall idea of how I am doing. And I do weight and record everything strictly. Is Cronometer better?
 
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bulkbiker

BANNED
Messages
19,575
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Thanks...no only the usual clutch of metabolic disorder-related diseases, which I mentioned, caused by serious obesity. But at a time when GPs are making us cut back on seeing consultants for anything but non-urgent purposes (I was seeinga cardiologist after a diabetes-related heart attack but when I admitted I was now doing fine, he said he was not allowed to see me again until 'something happened' and I went to A&E) it's extraordinary they waste time and money trying to push people to eat more carbohydrates. My GP sent me to see a dietitician some years back. Her main piece of advice was that I should reintroduce bread and grains to my diet. Needless to say I made no progress. Whereas with the LCHF diet, I am making good progress for the first time.

Do you have a URL reference for that report you mention? Thanks.

Its hard to find the report itself but this is from "The Lancet" so should hopefully carry some weight with your HCP's
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)32252-3/abstract
 

dbr10

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,237
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
When the local hospital got to hear that I am losing weight rapidly on a very careful low carbohydrate diet, they rang me up to see how I was getting along and wanted to check that I am getting 'all the nutrients'. I think I am -- green vegetables and about 50g of berries a day, all carefully weighed. Now they have followed it up with this pamphlet and I turned immediately to page seven which says how many carbs you should have a day. It is an amazing 130g minimum of carbs a day. Following this NHS pamphlet, published in 2016, would mean a reversion to eating some bread, cereals, potatoes etc. I have lost nearly 13 kg so far in less than three months by staying below 50g of carbs a day, though I am now losing only about 3.5 kg a month and am very satisfied with my general state of health and well-being. I accept their point about nutrients but I think I am taking good care of that. And I don't feel hungry.
My blood sugar levels have of course plunged to very very healthy ones and I am watching the protein content of my food, and am hopeful that my blood pressure is down too. They have never policed anything else that I have done -- and I would be grateful for more attention to my diabetes and blood pressure -- but now they seem to be doing exactly that in an attempt to have me eat carbohydrate I don't want. Can anyone think of a polite but crushing -- and completely science and research-based -- response to give when they ring up next and ask whether I am following their advice?
You could say that their advice would kill you, I suppose. Interesting that they've larches onto this, when you actually want proper diabetes care.

The 130g of carbs thing is supposed to be to maintain proper brain function. It's a myth.
 

dbr10

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,237
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Thanks...no only the usual clutch of metabolic disorder-related diseases, which I mentioned, caused by serious obesity. But at a time when GPs are making us cut back on seeing consultants for anything but non-urgent purposes (I was seeinga cardiologist after a diabetes-related heart attack but when I admitted I was now doing fine, he said he was not allowed to see me again until 'something happened' and I went to A&E) it's extraordinary they waste time and money trying to push people to eat more carbohydrates. My GP sent me to see a dietitician some years back. Her main piece of advice was that I should reintroduce bread and grains to my diet. Needless to say I made no progress. Whereas with the LCHF diet, I am making good progress for the first time.

Do you have a URL reference for that report you mention? Thanks.

Amazing how they are able to ignore all the facts of your situation.
 
Messages
6,107
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I was wondering what I might say to my DN if she made those sort of recommendations (she doesn't). I might ask her if she wanted me to keep my blood sugars down. I am sure she would. I would then ask her if she wanted me to eat 130g of carbs a day for the sake of my brain and she may say yes to that also.

I would then ask "which" since I can't do both.
 
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ringi

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
"130g of carbs a day for the sake of my brain" would be about right if I was eating low fat and had no weight to lose, but given that I am eating fats and have lots of my own fat for my brain to run on, I don't need the carbs.
 

DCUKMod

Master
Staff Member
Messages
14,298
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
@TwoRivers - I would be inclined, in your shoes, not to get into anything confrontational at this stage, but to suggest that your bloods are good, weight loss is happening and that you feel well (assuming those things are true). I would suggest we agree that I carry on as now, for an period (probably 3-6 months), and continue to manage my condition as I have been doing, unless something health changed, and then have a blood panel done, for a full review.

That way, they have made their point, you have stated your preference and it will be reviewed, between you, after an agreed period.

If, at that time, your weight loss has continued in the right direction, along with decent bloods and generally feeling well, and your measured metrics are not adversely impacted, your rationale may be better understood. If they would do a baseline set of bloods, height, weight, waist measurement and BP, it would be apparent for all to see, and no suggestion of any fudging.

That'd be my starting point. It's far better to try to bring our health care professionals along with us than t alienate ourselves where it can be avoided.
 

CherryAA

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,171
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Thanks..very helpful. I use FatSecret which gives me a pretty good overall idea of how I am doing. And I do weight and record everything strictly. Is Cronometer better?


I'm not familiar with FatSecret, so I can't compare - the things I like about cronometer - it tracks all your nutrients split - eg types of sugar, proteins vitamins and minerals. You can run reports against chosen dates using the pc version, You can look up foods for any type of nutrient you want to focus on, you can set it up for you particular diet type so that it will tell you progress against that type of diet, You can add notes. You can add in any kind of biometric you want, you can add in any type of exercise many pre-filled , it links to Fitbit if you want. It was set up by a guy into LCHF so fat is green and carbs is red - which feels right !

the free version is fine -
 

TwoRivers

Well-Known Member
Messages
49
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Obesity.
Thanks to everyone who wrote on this. By way of explanation I should add that all my medical advisers tell me that my problems are largely caused by obesity and losing weight has to be a priority. That is a family inheritance made much worse in the last six years when I went on to insulin and then got into an 'insulin--weight increase spiral.' It seemed hopeless and getting ever worse. Early this summer I was offered bariatric surgery but did not fancy that option. That is the background to my going LC and the results have been better than I anticipated. Actually I knew from successful dieting earlier in my life -- and reading the works of John Yudkin -- that control of carbohydrates worked but during the decade and a half I have had diabetes the line that 'you must have some carbohydrates' had sunk into me. That was about all that did sink in. Diabetic education was minimal as was monitoring of blood sugar. When my sugar levels soared above 12.0 two years ago, my GP simply said 'If your blood sugar carries on at this level, your eyesight will be affected.' No changes in my medication and dosage were even suggested. I did not know this site and was desperate. No one seemed available to advise me. A couple of months later I had a heart attack while travelling in Europe. It was investigated a lot more than in the UK (I think) and it seems my arteries are in pretty good order. (Thanks to years of statins? That was the result of good advice by an earlier GP.) My insulin levels (already raised sharply not by my UK doctor but another I consulted while travelling) were raised further -- and two or three weeks later, I was down to 5s and even 4s (and having to watch out again for hypos.) And there, thanks to control of my diet, they have remained, (4.8 yesterday 4.7 this morning.) But the weight was still getting worse. Then I read up on "The Bitter Truth about Sugar" and similar sites, discovered this site, and though at first I had no idea about how to bring down my carbohydrates further (I had cut most of them out already but didn't realise the high sugar content of fruit of which I am very fond and which the dieticians did not warn me against), I recorded everything on FatSecret-- and voila! The weight peeled away and though the curve has flattened, it is still doing so.
I do get on well with all my health professionals though I do find it disturbing that they are confined to repeating NHS guidelines--and going for cost cuts on consultants. When a kidney consultant recommended I see a diabetic consultant, my GP vetoed the idea. I accidentally met the diabetic nurse in the local hospital and she gave me good advice on insulin dosage and when I consulted her about this, did not oppose me. Insulin intake has plummeted (despite the stable low levels of blood sugar) from 40 Lantus and 3x18 Novorapid to simply 11 Lantus each day. (Each time I make a big cut, I consult the diabetic nurse first.) She anticipates that if things carry on like this, I will not need insulin much longer. (That isn't the whole story, for the last six months I have been taking 2 x Metformin a day.)
So after all that, it was a bit of a shock to get a phone call this from a dietician nurse I have never even spoken to before, enquiring whether I am looking after my nutrition properly and sending me instructions to raise my carbohydrate intake. (She had been reading up the notes on my conversation with her colleague a week or two back informating her that I was on an LC diet.)
To be fair to my present GP (whom I have informed in detail about the diet) I don't think he will press this issue, and since I am clearly doing better than I was at the beginning of the summer, let alone a year or two years ago, I guess he won't be alone.
Yes of course I do wonder if there might be a downside to a low carbohydrate diet and scan the web for possible evidence, though I haven't found any so far or nothing that begins to compare to the previous risks and costs of my obesity. I had 24g of carbs yesterday and usually stay well below 40g. But it seems to me that the immediate benefits of losing 13 kg and being set to lose a good deal more, painlessly, and of tight blood sugar control (Hba1c was 5.1 in May even before the start of the diet thanks to measures I had already taken in avoiding starches) outweigh any risks I turn out have several neighbours who turn out to be long term LC diet followers, as far as I can see the results are good.
Yet turn to Wikipedia and you will see that the information there is all slanted against low carb diets: "results minimal or unproven." The Atkins diet (of which I disapprove) is dismissed as a just 'fad diet' which is clearly a silly over-simplification and ignores the components of it which actually do operate and need to be understood. This is suppressing debate and understanding rather than assisting it. (And it would help if British nutrition academics would share with us the reasons why their consensus differs so sharply from that which is emerging among most of their American colleagues.)

The biggest hazard of low carb dieting seems to be turning into a low carb bore who can talk about nothing else. Apologies if the posting above is a symptom of this. And thanks again for all the useful replies.
 
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equipoise

Well-Known Member
Messages
269
Anyone who says 130g of carbs is vital to maintain proper brain function is living proof that if anything it impairs proper brain function. Absolutely shocking that the NHS peddles this, and shameful that people have to be told to ignore what it says.
 

donnellysdogs

Master
Messages
13,233
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
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People that can't listen to other people's opinions.
People that can't say sorry.
I think that people need to just make sure they get enough b12, folate and iron and the essential vitamins when lchf.

If you used to eat cereals/bread etc with fortified b12 added you can go low.
I know this myself. I have listed every ounce of food I eat and due to a poorly colon I cannot eat a lot of foods so supplement for b12/folate again now. I stopped for years as it went way over target without supplements when I had cancer. Now it has dropped to 10 above needing injections. I'm sure the high b12 was linked to cancer as it dropped immediately after but because My foods lack it I am trying supplements again. 10 years ago I had injections but now I analyse my food so much I can see that some is food related and the 1598 level I got to was cancer related.

I do not take multi vitamins as I would be over in some, for me I have to analyse my vitamins more than just a multi vitamin.

Broccoli everyday helps with iron because I cant supplement, and no way do I want transfusions....

Just take time out to analyse the foods that you now eat. It does actually impress consultants, nurses and dietitians as you are definitely in control and they can accept more that you are ok. My GP suggested broccoli and she knows I analyse every food as there is a lot restricted with me. However, consuktants, docs, nurses know how exact I am so dont comment too much as they know I analyse everything.