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Pesky dawn phenomenon

Brunneria said:
This is fascinating stuff, but where does ketosis fit into this?

It would like to run my glycogen reserves down far enough that I switch to ketosis. I don't manage it much (but I get there for a few days, now and then), but the more consistently I am in ketosis the better I feel.

Is your advice different re the replenishing of glycogen reserves, under those circumstances?
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Hi Brunneria,

I am still learning about exercise when in ketosis, but logically this is what I would suggest:

If you are already in ketosis, then your body (your brain) is already using ketones as an energy source, leaving glucose or glycogen for absolute needs.

On a zero carb diet, your body is still able to synthesise glucose (glycogen), however I'm not sure that stressing your body into doing intensive exercise (where you body will call on glucose) in this case is a good idea. (In fact I wonder if you would have the energy to do it!) :hilarious: When you exercise at more moderate levels you body is more easily able to use alternative sources of fuel - so it's not such a problem.

If however you follow a diet that is just low in carbohydrate, then a burst of intense exercise should be fine. You won't come out of ketosis unless you eat a load of carbohydrate afterwards. Your body will still want to replenish the stores, and it will work hard to do this by taking whatever glucose it can out of your bloodstream to do so - that and making use of any carb or indeed anything else you eat. Your body will still nevertheless carry on using ketones as your main energy source.

Others may have thoughts to add to this - as I say, I am still learning about exercise and ketosis and I am not an expert.

I think the other thing to say is that we are all different and although there are some fairly logical processes and patterns as to how our body behaves, what works for some may not work for others. It's a case of giving it a go, and working out the best formula that suits you as an individual. The only thing I would say, is that if part of that formula includes exercise you will feel better for it. :)
 
Just wondering...

Why is that morning reading so important? Is it because the body should in theory be low BG as it's not eaten all night and therefore if higher, we are more at risk?

X


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Diagnosed prediabetic Easter 2014. Just left to get on with it, no guidance or help from GP. Every day I'm learning something new.
 
Bebo321 said:
Hi there sunspots!
Yay! Another guinea pig.
Great that taking metformin in the evening helped.
I had a thought about your higher BG level at the eye hospital, and wondered if it might have been a bit of a rise from the exercise and a little anxiety for the eye exam
You won't know for sure unless you do the same again with perhaps a slightly more leisurely walk and without the eye hospital thrown into the mix.
Just out of interest, did your bloods come back down nicely later on in the day?
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Thanks for the metformin idea. It has worked twice now. My BG did settle later in the day so stress might have been a factor.

How do others work to minimise stress-related effects? Actually that's possibly a new thread so I'll start one!
Keep up the great 'dawn' work Brunneria.
 
Debmcgee said:
Just wondering...

Why is that morning reading so important? Is it because the body should in theory be low BG as it's not eaten all night and therefore if higher, we are more at risk?

X


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Diagnosed prediabetic Easter 2014. Just left to get on with it, no guidance or help from GP. Every day I'm learning something new.
Click to expand...
There is a substantial link between dawn effect and higher HbA1c. That rise, although small, causes an even greater increase in risks of complications. A recent editorial from America suggested the risks are such that insulin should be used to manage it if nothing else works.
 
sunspots said:
There is a substantial link between dawn effect and higher HbA1c. That rise, although small, causes an even greater increase in risks of complications. A recent editorial from America suggested the risks are such that insulin should be used to manage it if nothing else works.
Click to expand...
Thanks sunspots x


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Diagnosed prediabetic Easter 2014. Just left to get on with it, no guidance or help from GP. Every day I'm learning something new.
 
sunspots said:
There is a substantial link between dawn effect and higher HbA1c. That rise, although small, causes an even greater increase in risks of complications. A recent editorial from America suggested the risks are such that insulin should be used to manage it if nothing else works.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's why I'm finding it such a drag. I jut want my body to have a rest during the night. Give my pancreas time to recuperate. The beta cells as I understand it need to build up a little store of insulin ready for a first phase attack on my first meal. If that doesn't work then they have to keep on producing insulin all the time (second phase). Man they need a rest, not having to be constantly working out!

Also I'd like to see a little stability in my bg level. This is so I can experiment with having a chocolate biscuit and see what damage I really did to myself. All in the name of science of course (yuhmmm are you missing me my sweet!) :)
 
Debmcgee said:
Everything I've read says cashews should be eaten with caution!!

Here's my spreadsheet of carb values for your reference....

View attachment 4955

Xx


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Diagnosed prediabetic Easter 2014. Just left to get on with it, no guidance or help from GP. Every day I'm learning something new.
Click to expand...

thanks for that information, ive just been eating any old nut as im on a veggie diet :(
 
Bebo321 said:
Glad to help if I can,
Moderate intensity exercise is fine (let's face it any exercise is great) - just elevating you heart rate a little is good enough to help you manage blood glucose levels and improve overall well being.

High intensity exercise - if you are able, involves elevating your heart rate much more and actually has far more health benefits. Unfortunately it also comes with a down side, and that is that when your heart rate is elevated your body's stress response kicks in, and a cascade of events causes your body to call on your liver to dump a load of glucose into your bloodstream. Probably an evolutionary bonus when you are trying to outrun a predator, but not so great when you are trying to improve blood glucose readings and general fitness levels!
What you will find however is that the resulting reduction in blood glucose levels and insulin sensitivity is far more evident with even a short burst of intensive exercise compared to a longer period of moderate exercise.

You ask about exercise in the morning vs evening - really it's down to what works best for you. What I would say though is that the beneficial effects of exercise (lowered blood glucose levels and greater insulin sensitivity) last much longer for intense exercise. If you could your manage blood glucose levels, then a workout that includes an element of intense exercise could actually work for you in the morning, and you would still enjoy the benefits for up to 24hrs!

Really the very best way to get the most out of exercise is to combine a fairly early burst of intense exercise with a period of moderate exercise. Give your body time to warm up - burst of energy, then easy 20mins cool down to help bring your blood glucose level back down again.
You mentioned vinegar not working for you? Try taking a drink when you have elevated blood glucose readings from exercise and it it likely to help, because it aids glycogen replenishment (that means it helps switch your body into 'fuelling' mode - taking glucose back out of the blood and into glycogen depleted muscle and liver cells)

Sounds like you've done a great job of finding out what works for you - get the exercise combination right and you'll be rocking!
Keep up the good work Tweetypie!;)
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Thanks Bebo, I find your advice very encouraging amidst the confusing science of blood sugar. What would an example of high intensity exercise be though? At the moment, I like walking, swimming, rebounding and step machine, but not sure how to incorporate high intensity into that? Also, is it a good idea to eat something to prevent the liver kicking in/or not?
Thanks !
 
gfmoore said:
oops didn't spot that this also references the same place, sorry.

@Brunneria - where are you upto in your experimentation?
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I've gone sadly off the rails with my testing this week. Worked from home for some of this week, and that messed up my normal schedule (I frittered the extra time away by sleeping through it!) that I repeatedly forgot to test my BG ... :sorry:

But I'm still munching the Brazils, and what testing I've done, is showing the same level of improvement.

Next week I may (just may) do a wee spot of exercise at night. Shudder.

I know, I know, it goes against some very deep seated principles, but...
Sigh.... In the interests of science...

I AM a martyr!!!
 
Tweetypie said:
Thanks Bebo, I find your advice very encouraging amidst the confusing science of blood sugar. What would an example of high intensity exercise be though? At the moment, I like walking, swimming, rebounding and step machine, but not sure how to incorporate high intensity into that? Also, is it a good idea to eat something to prevent the liver kicking in/or not?
Thanks !
Click to expand...

High intensity exercise is basically andy thing that raises your heart rate right up. If you do some research around VO2 max, then ideally you need to be working at 75+% of VO2 max.
Really though, I wouldn't suggest you suddenly start incorporating something like sprint sets into your exercise routine if you're not used to working at a higher intensity. You're more likely to do yourself an injury than make the improvements you're hoping for!
Really it's just a case of doing something you enjoy but increasing the intensity. You should feel out of breath, and a little uncomfortable, and you won't be able to maintain the level of exercise for very long. You say you enjoy walking - could you begin running do you think?

With regards to a liver dump, if your body is stressed through exercise (or actually for any other reason) it will cause your liver to dump glucose no matter what you have in your stomach.
As to what point this happens, again it really depends on your own fitness level. For someone totally unused to exercise they may get a stress response by simply walking up a flight of stairs. For somebody much fitter it would take much more to elevate the heart sufficiently to cause a liver dump.

It may be worth booking up to see a personal trainer in order to get some one-to-one advice that works for you. They should be able to guide you to ensure that you are able to incorporate some higher intensity exercise into your work-out program (which is admirable by the way) whilst also ensuring that you do it in a way that is sensible and avoids any potential injury.

For more information on high intensity exercise, take a look at http://www.teambloodglucose.com/TeamBG/Questions_-_explained_Vigorous.html
 
Hi all,

BS 2 hours after dinner last night 6.5, first thing this morning 6.6!!! Is this the dawn phenomenon or has it continued to rise in the night then dropped this morning?

At 6.6 is breakfast going to push it too high?

Very confused.

Summer x


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summer dreamer said:
Hi all,

BS 2 hours after dinner last night 6.5, first thing this morning 6.6!!! Is this the dawn phenomenon or has it continued to rise in the night then dropped this morning?

At 6.6 is breakfast going to push it too high?

Very confused.

Summer x


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App
Click to expand...
A difference of 6.5 to 6.6 is barely worth discussing since meter tolerance can vary more than that.

What would your normal levels be?

I don't see that you could have DP if your morning level was the virtually the same as the previous night.
 
I'm very new to all this. Thought levels would naturally drop overnight? They're usually between 4.5 and 5 first thing in the morning. 6.5 was higher than normal, usually high 5s after dinner but had a couple of new potatoes as an experiment!

This is all so confusing! Didn't realise the meters weren't always accurate either.

Summer x


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App
 
Hi Summer,

Most UK meters these days have a plus or minus 15% error rate, which is a lot! Some older models have up to plus or minus 20%. You can test this out for yourself should you be so inclined by taking tests one after the other on different fingers and different hands. They will all be different. I've had one reading of 9.4 on one finger and 7.8 on another a few seconds apart. Even same finger tests will vary. Accuracy isn't important for non-insulin users, it is just trends we are looking for, upwards or downwards, plus which foods spike us. If you get a reading that doesn't fit with your trend or seems outrageous, test again.
 
Brunneria said:
I've gone sadly off the rails with my testing this week. Worked from home for some of this week, and that messed up my normal schedule (I frittered the extra time away by sleeping through it!) that I repeatedly forgot to test my BG ... :sorry:

But I'm still munching the Brazils, and what testing I've done, is showing the same level of improvement.

Next week I may (just may) do a wee spot of exercise at night. Shudder.

I know, I know, it goes against some very deep seated principles, but...
Sigh.... In the interests of science...

I AM a martyr!!!
Click to expand...
Hi Brunneria, it sounds like the Brazils on waking thing are working for you. Much as I don't want to,I'm going to give them a try too.
Exercise in the evening can only help as well. Good luck with yours this week:)
 
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