Prof Taylor's reply on fat in Newcastle diet

[jack412]

I was thankful Prof taylor took time to reply to my email, a dedicated man.

Prof Taylor,
I have followed your work online and 2 video lectures and wish to congratulate you on your research. It is a paradigm shift in T2 diabetes treatment.

I am writing to ask about the fat and protein grams in the new 5 year trial diets.
There is some data that 30g/d with a 10g fat meal will reduce the risk of gallstones and I would value your opinion
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8781321

Roy Taylor <[email protected]>

Dear Jack,

Thank you. In our current 5 year study we are using an 810kcal/day liquid formula diet which contains 12g fat. This is higher in fat than the original diet we used.

If a person is known to have gallstones or is thought to be of high risk, then it would seem wise to follow the pattern reported by Gebhard and colleagues or to have a modestly higher fat intake. The speed of weight loss is not critical – merely the achievement of target weight.

I hope this helps.

Best,

RT

 

[cold ethyl]

And even more interesting is the last sentence ...

 

[Lamont D]

As I have pointed out before as I have to low carb, the 'what I eat to keep my bloods level' is the crucial factor.

Everything else, BP, cholestrol, liver function and especially weight loss is a big bonus. And of course being healthier and fitter.

It's not the how and why but if it improves you, then use that logic!

 

[Lamont D]

Sorry jack,
The email is very interesting and thanks for the info.

 

[Paul59]

As I have pointed out before as I have to low carb, the 'what I eat to keep my bloods level' is the crucial factor.

Everything else, BP, cholestrol, liver function and especially weight loss is a big bonus. And of course being healthier and fitter.

It's not the how and why but if it improves you, then use that logic!

I still say & it's only my opinion from my own experiance, that it's the cutting out table sugars & the starch sugars that plays a big part in the reducing of the above.
I even spoke to a friend before xmas who had recently had a small warning heart attack, he said that they specialist had said to him that cutting down or even out sugar will go along way to cutting the chance of another more serious heart attack.

 

[Lamont D]

I still say & it's only my opinion from my own experiance, that it's the cutting out table sugars & the starch sugars that plays a big part in the reducing of the above.
I even spoke to a friend before xmas who had recently had a small warning heart attack, he said that they specialist had said to him that cutting down or even out sugar will go along way to cutting the chance of another more serious heart attack.

In my experience of trying to be healthier, cutting sugar alone didn't do an awful lot.
It wasn't until I did without the carbs did I start to see the benefits.
Carbs are turned into glucose and glucagon in your bloodstream and they I believe do the real damage to your endocrine system.
It is in fact the sugars, the carbs and the polyunsaturated fats including trans fats that is causing the diabetic epidemic.

 

[jack412]

So, each shake has 4g of fat, 3 times a day?

optifast is 4.5g per serve or 13.5 plus what ever is in the plate of salad or cooked food...Prof Taylor said it's more fat now, so the 12g said in the email doesn't seem right at first look.
I guess it wouldn't be 12g a serve 36 g/day or he wouldn't have said extra fat is ok for those at gallstone risk.

the old diet was 700cal the new diet is 820 cal, so there is more of something in it. isn't there

 

[phoenix]

liquid diet formula (46.4% carbohydrate, 32.5% protein and 20.1% fat; vitamins, minerals and trace elements; 2.1 MJ/day [510 kcal/day]; Optifast; Nestlé Nutrition, Croydon, UK).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168743/?report=reader
That works out at 170 calories a meal
and only 11.39 g fat for the day (ie slightly less than 3g a meal)


I've found three different versions on the net,none of which have exactly the same proportions
Optifast 800 either 'ready to drink'or the mix has 3g per serving 160 calories
It is on the US section of the Nestle web site (not UK)
http://www.nestlehealthscience.us/products/optifast-800®-shake-mix
The optifast on the UK listing has 4.5 per serving 208 calories
http://www.nestlehealthscience.co.uk/products/optifast
There is also an Optifast 900 from Canada that has 7.5 g fat per serving of 225 calories
https://www.optifast.com/Pages/ca/nutrition-information.aspx

 

[jack412]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168743/?report=reader
That works out at 170 calories a meal
and only 11.39 g fat for the day (ie slightly less than 3g a meal)


I've found three different versions on the net,none of which have exactly the same proportions
Optifast 800 either 'ready to drink'or the mix has 3g per serving 160 calories
It is on the US section of the Nestle web site (not UK)
http://www.nestlehealthscience.us/products/optifast-800®-shake-mix
The optifast on the UK listing has 4.5 per serving 208 calories
http://www.nestlehealthscience.co.uk/products/optifast
There is also an Optifast 900 from Canada that has 7.5 g fat per serving of 225 calories
https://www.optifast.com/Pages/ca/nutrition-information.aspx

he's a professor, he seems to care about the end result going by his email, he's not obsessed about the formula, given that the 12g is less than the previous 13.5g when he said it was more.

I guess they want something very easy to follow and aren't too fussed
They are using Counterweight Plus this time
http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN03267836
"The aim of the study is to find out whether it is possible to reverse diabetes and sustain this over 2 years, similar to the benefits that are achieved through sustained weight loss after bariatric surgery. Optimised weight management via a proven structured programme, Counterweight Plus, will be used in GP surgeries. The study will also find out about the mechanisms underlying reversal of diabetes and quantify quality of life and attitudes during the study."

 

[phoenix]

="douglas99, post: 725773, member: 38028"]It would be ironic if, as one of the major sponsors of diabetes UK, Tesco supply the shakes for the study diabetes UK are funding.

202.5 calories per shake, 3 to 3.5g of fat, 4 times a day.

The products are being supplied from the Cambridge plan
Funder name
Cambridge Weight Plan (UK) - product and training support
and the protocol is

Week 0-12: a commercial micronutrient-replete 825-853 kcal/d TDR (soups and shakes) will be provided to replace normal foods, with ample fluids, for 12 weeks. Participants will be seen for review weekly then every 2 weeks during this phase.
Week 12-18: stepped transition to food-based Weight Maintenance, replacing TDR with meals which contain 30% of energy from fat. During this phase participants will attend for review appointments every 2 weeks.
Weeks 18-104: participants will then be provided with an individually tailored calorie prescription to support weight stabilisation and prevent weight regain with monthly review appointments.
All subjects in the intervention arm who are physically capable will be advised about increasing daily physical activity. As an aid, patients will be recommended to obtain an inexpensive step-counter and to aim to reach and maintain their individual sustainable maximum.
Some patients find weight maintenance difficult, some relapse temporarily and gain weight rapidly. Others may tend to let things slip more gradually. If weight regains occurs in TDR randomised participants, or if diabetes is found to have returned (HbA1c risen above 6.5%) at any time during the 18-month weight loss maintenance stage, ‘rescue plans’ for weight gain prevention will be offered

http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN03267836

Cambridge plan could be good for UK exports if the trial is successful !
http://www.cambridgeweightplan.com/about-us/cambridge-manufacturing

 

[jack412]

And even more interesting is the last sentence ...

yes, it seems that anyone they deem to be at risk with be given a higher fat supplement

 

[jack412]

"If a person is known to have gallstones or is thought to be of high risk, then it would seem wise to follow the pattern reported by Gebhard and colleagues or to have a modestly higher fat intake. The speed of weight loss is not critical – merely the achievement of target weight."

 

[catherinecherub]

Why you need to argue @jack412 and @douglas99 is beyond me.
Either add to the debate in an agreeable manner or leave well alone.

 

[Pipp]

"If a person is known to have gallstones or is thought to be of high risk, then it would seem wise to follow the pattern reported by Gebhard and colleagues or to have a modestly higher fat intake. The speed of weight loss is not critical – merely the achievement of target weight."

I had gallstones when I started Newcastle diet in September 2011. They were symptom free, had been there for years. No mention of adding fat to the Total Food Replacement method I was using under medical supervision. The gallstones grew in size and I had my gallbladder removed later.

Had I been aware of the need for adding some fat I would have used a different food replacement programme, as the one I used specifically excluded all food and drink except water and tea /coffeee with no milk.
I thought the growing gallstones were just a coincidence, but now I wonder.

 

[Patricia21]

I have had gallstones for the last 20years,found through testing for somthing else,I have never had any problems until last week when I developed acute pancreaitis and was in hospital for four days,the pain was agony.
I have been on LCHF since last June and lost a stone in weight,although I dont need to lose weight.
I havent gone mad with fats but enjoyed butter,cream,cheese,
The consultant advised me that weight loss and added fat had caused a gallstone to move,
Blood tests show the pancreas has settled,and its thought the stone has passed.
I have been advised to cut the fat to a minimum,and have my gall bladder removed.

 

[phoenix]

The published protocol , makes no allowance for any additions , variability until phase 3. The first 2 phases are quite specific as to content.
To add a fat supplement would add a variable to this trial by increasing calories and the first two phases have time frames. You would no longer be making a direst comparison of one procedure with 'normal care' . If anyone developed problems they would probably not continue the study and be reported as a possible adverse effect.
The protocol is actually very similar to an earlier 12 month VLE liquid diet study (- some use of orlistat in the last phase) by the counterweight team which also used Cambridge diet products.
http://www.counterweight.org/Publications/Published-Papers-1
Professor M Lean was responsible for the conduct of this trial and he is listed on the Direct trial protocol as the main contact for the direct study. It makes sense to use a proven design and expertise in running the trial.


Outside the study then obviously anyone with gall stones should take medical advice on how much fat to eat.

 

[Patricia21]

There are many people who dont know if they have gall stones,usually a test for somthing else that finds them.

 

[AndBreathe]

And even more interesting is the last sentence ...

To my knowledge the loss, rather than speed of said loss, being critical has always been his belief. I must admit I took heart from that statement when I "discovered" the ND a short while after diagnosis.

@jack412 - I wrote to Prof Taylor a while ago, and similarly received a prompt and very personal response. I was and remain impressed by the man.

 

[izzzi]

Why you need to argue @jack412 and @douglas99 is beyond me.
Either add to the debate in an agreeable manner or leave well alone.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Winston Churchill.

@catherinecherub, I would love to know exactly in three words, what point these two lovely "fanatic's" are making.
( mind you Douglas has tried it while Jack has read it.)
Sorry for being a wooden spoon, it is a bit cold out side today.

 

[phoenix]

I wrote to Prof Taylor a while ago, and similarly received a prompt and very personal response. I was and remain impressed by the man

I agree about being impressed. I hope that's something everyone can agree upon (though I do know of one person who suggested otherwise )
I was particularly impressed when I read about his earlier work on the introduction of the retinopathy screening programme to the UK . That was also a first and probably a big factor in why diabetes (in the UK) is no longer the leading cause of blindness in people of working age.