Refused an ambulance on a 999 call

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Milkyway

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anna29 said:
Hi All.

An old work friend of mine, always wanted to be a paramedic.
Now has completed and passed the training and exams needed to be one.

She has explained to me it is colour triaged now.
Red - orange - green .

Red is full go , ambulance and "all first aid treatment" to be used as per serious needs.
[Classed as a priority 1 and straight through to the A & E team once arrival at hospital]
Orange/Amber is again ambulance and first aid assistance as per needs after assessment.
[once reach hospital will be triaged again - especially if A & E dept is busy]
Green is patient can make own way to hospital and will be triaged again there,
has to go through the NHS system once reach hospital.

This colour code triage of seriousness rating, will eventually make its way through the ambulance services of the UK.

A code red patient dosent have to wait . [hence the priority 1 and patient is fast tracked straight to the A & E staff upon arrival ]
A code amber/orange is given up to 3-4hrs waiting time once triaged again at hospital arrival.
A code green has to after triage again, sit things out within the NHS system after making their own way to the hospital.

We can all grumble over the varities of who - what warrants a code red/amber/green response etc...
But it does appear to be a system set up to grade the seriousness of response , treatment needed/given, waiting time allowance
after triage , are being graded as to the urgency of the patient needs with their health and safety issues being assessed at triage.

I myself was triaged last winter and was fast tracked to a ward to be seen within 3hours , was triaged as 'amber' .
Thought the system was fair and efficient as per my own needs and experience of this.

Anna.


Sorry Anna but that isn't true.

Calls are graded either R1, R2, G1, G2, G3 or G4 by caller takers using NHS pathways or AMPDS (depending on Trust and area)

R1 - Is an immediately life threatening emergency such as a cardiac arrest
R2 - Is a life threatening emergency such as a CVA (stoke) or MI (heart attack)

Both of these should get a response within 8 minutes (75% of the time)

G1 - Serious injury or illness such as an RTA requiring a response within 20 minutes
G2 - non life threatening conditions which do need assistance, i.e. elderly falls needing a 30 minute response

G3 and G4s - Non life threatening conditions with get a call from a health care professional (HCP) within 20 minutes or an hour respectively. That HCP will then decide what help is needed, this maybe an ambulance, a GP, a district nurse, make your own way to A&E / Injury unit or self treatment.

None of these have any effect on the hospital, once the ambulance arrives they will assess the patient and refer the to the best place or treat them at home (40%ish of 999 calls do not go to A&E).

If once on scene the ambulance decide in is an immediately life threatening emergency they will ring A&E and have them on standby for their arrival, nothing to do with call grading.
 

Cobra3164

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Hello. Its interesting hearing from paramedics etc about the way things are prioritised within the healthcare system. Another thing people forget to do is to use the NHS direct service which I do believe is vital and invaluable and at the least it can give you some idea of the urgency.

To those who work in ambulances I have nothing but praise for the job they do one of the most difficult and sometimes dangerous professions to work in. It is all good for ourselves to sit back and say they are not as good as they were and I do not believe that to be true. The truth of it is they are being squeezed by tight budgets and sometimes rediculous government policies, but still they do the best job they can under these circumstances. If there is anyone to complain to it is our local and government politicians indicating these professionals are underappreciated and in many circumstances underpaid. THANK YOU THOSE WHO DAILY HELP TO SAVE PEOPLES LIVES AND GIVE MEDICAL ATTENTION TO THOSE IN DIRE NEED MY HEART GOES OUT TO YOU.

All my best

Simon aka Cobra3164
 

Milkyway

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Dragonflye said:
OK that may be your opinion however I may just add that my condition WAS life threatening, not only to myself but to my baby, I was lucky I got to the hospital when I did as my blood results indicated I should have been in a coma or at least very close to. As it happens my baby is now suffering the consequences of the delay in my treatment which is costing the nhs a lot more than it would have done should I have received treatment when I should have done.

I'm sorry to hear your baby is ill but that isn't the NHS's fault, you would have got treated quicker making your own way and not wasted time trying to get an ambulance.

You simply did not need an ambulance, you needed to be in A&E yes but it is YOUR responsibility to get there as you were mobile and did not need emergency medical treatment that the ambulance service would provide. Don't blame the NHS for your poor planning and take responsibility for your own actions.
 

Dragonflye

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Well Milkyway complaints procedures have now been put into place. At the end of the day my situation was life threatening and this has now been confimed and as my treatment was delayed (this is a combination of inept a&e staff and ambulance call centre) my baby is suffering, which is again a confirmed NHS fault.

I was mobile? taking 20 steps before being completely exhausted and collapsing on the floor is mobile? OK if thats what NHS class as mobile, fair enough although my opinion is different :) Much to the annoyance of many others waiting, once I got to a&e and went through triage or whatever it is, I was seen immediately however the doctor had no experience of ketones with normal sugars and therefore didnt treat me as I should have done until he spoke to my DSN. My whole experience was a disaster, not just the ambulance.

I was just lucky I made it to the hospital when I did. I understand ambulances are very busy and have every respect for most paramedics and I do blame cuts from the government but I also know that I do not trust the service now, when do I call for an ambulance? I have no idea so wont bother... I am just lucky I now have a cgm with good chances of permanent funding so unless something goes desperately wrong I should eliminate most of my nighttime hypos so wont need to bother anyone :)
 

GraceK

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Cobra3164 said:
Hello. Its interesting hearing from paramedics etc about the way things are prioritised within the healthcare system. Another thing people forget to do is to use the NHS direct service which I do believe is vital and invaluable and at the least it can give you some idea of the urgency.

To those who work in ambulances I have nothing but praise for the job they do one of the most difficult and sometimes dangerous professions to work in. It is all good for ourselves to sit back and say they are not as good as they were and I do not believe that to be true. The truth of it is they are being squeezed by tight budgets and sometimes rediculous government policies, but still they do the best job they can under these circumstances. If there is anyone to complain to it is our local and government politicians indicating these professionals are underappreciated and in many circumstances underpaid. THANK YOU THOSE WHO DAILY HELP TO SAVE PEOPLES LIVES AND GIVE MEDICAL ATTENTION TO THOSE IN DIRE NEED MY HEART GOES OUT TO YOU.

All my best

Simon aka Cobra3164

And at the end of that tight budget squeeze and at the end of that stressful chain of events - is the patient and an unborn baby who has been refused an ambulance. The patient is what the NHS is all about. Were it not for the sick, the ill and the injured, there would be no jobs for doctors, nurses, paramedics. They choose to do those jobs for a salary. They're not volunteers.

They choose to provide services to vulnerable people. So let's not turn them into saviours and heroes. And let's not forget that the stress that they're all under - is ultimately passed on to the patient (as can be seen by some of the posts here) who can do sod all about it but take it on board and accept it.
 

Milkyway

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Your husband stated the reason you didn't take a taxi was because of you didn't have the money not because of your condition, so there seems to be some story changing going on here!

I'm sorry but having no money is not the NHS's fault, and it should not burden NHS resources.

In modern Britian we seem to like to blame everyone else but at the end of the day you have to take responsiblitiy for yourself, you can blame the NHS all you like but you need to take responsiblity.
 

Dragonflye

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No change of story :) I usually hate calling for an ambulance and only do so in dire circumstances, usually we use alternative transport (taxi) however on this occasion we couldnt afford... but circumstances being as they were and I was unable to walk to the hospital I didnt feel I had a choice (and I have walked in the past much to the annoyance of the NHS).

What aspect are you referring to regarding taking responsibility? I have probably read it wrong but I read that as I had ketones therefore its my own fault :) I'm not sure how I could stop ketones with a blood sugar reading of 3.8.

There is a lot more to this story than has unfortuantely been put on here and I respect everyones opinions to what they think should happen or not have happened. At the end of the day, for whatever reason (government cuts or not) lives were at risk and complications are now ongoing because of the incident.
 

Cobra3164

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Hi Dragonflie. I dont think anyone has meant to cause you offence sometimes thing are interpretated on an individual basis but I think comments here are a generalisation. Remember it is a difficult job for medical emergency to prioritize after all if we are ill or show signs is IS an emergency to us. One example I was in agonizing pain in my abdomen and called emergency services it was explained to me that after answering some questions they would send an ambulance but not as emergency. As it emerged I had pancreatitis and they were right. I do sympathise with the situation you were in, but at the same time I say again they are trying their best with the severe limitations on them. Another factor to think about although this did not apply to you is there are a large number of crank callers out there and that is sick and they have to sift the wheat from the chaff so to say.

Yours with empathy

Simon aka Cobra3164
 

izzzi

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[quoteProbably most of the ambulance staff were on their annual sick leave.][/quote]

I am sorry for making that poor comment.

I should have revealed this quote.

“AMBULANCE staff averaged more than FOUR WEEKS’ sick leave each last year, shock statistics revealed .”

Roy.
 

GraceK

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Perhaps the stress levels of those who work at all levels within the NHS should be looked at so that this stress is not passed on to the unwitting patient, who already has their own situation to deal with.

I thought the whole point of being an NHS professional was to not only be able to deal with stressful situations, but also to ensure that stress levels of the job don't get out of hand by monitoring, recording and reporting any problem areas to management.

'Just getting on with it' doesn't work, and we don't need martyrs working in the NHS, we need people who are willing to open their mouths and speak to management and send the stress back to where it belongs rather than passing it, and it's effects, onto the patient.

The patient is not to blame for NHS mis-management or overwork. The NHS is to blame for it's own mistakes.
 

Sid Bonkers

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GraceK said:
The patient is not to blame for NHS mis-management or overwork. The NHS is to blame for it's own mistakes.

Ultimately the NHS is managed by the government so the last few governments must bear the blame for the state that the NHS is in today, and I would not single out any particular political party here as they have all been guilty of neglecting the NHS for so long.

If less was spent fighting other countries wars it would go a long way towards funding the NHS we all want IMHO.
 

GraceK

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Sid Bonkers said:
GraceK said:
The patient is not to blame for NHS mis-management or overwork. The NHS is to blame for it's own mistakes.

Ultimately the NHS is managed by the government so the last few governments must bear the blame for the state that the NHS is in today, and I would not single out any particular political party here as they have all been guilty of neglecting the NHS for so long.

If less was spent fighting other countries wars it would go a long way towards funding the NHS we all want IMHO.

I'm with you on that one Sid, but also those in the top tiers of the NHS need to take a good long look at how they're managing their budgets, how they're cutting costs in all the wrong places, how they're lowering staff morale by treating people like disposable commodities instead of human beings, while they're openly spending fortunes on things like several 60foot Christmas trees fully lit and plonked in hospital grounds. I'm by no means against a bit of festive fun, but not if it's at the expense of jobs and hygiene health and safety of employees who have to work in parts of hospitals that are not in the public eye and which are absolutely filthy.

Admin departments go short of the very basic supplies necessary for people to do their job healthily and safely and efficiently - and if you complain, shoulders are shrugged.

I once had to wait three months for the stores to provide a tiny battery for my Consultant's dictaphone machine. The hope was, no doubt, that he would buy his own.

I've had to tell doctors that they need to hurry up and dictate their clinic letters but at the same time tell them they can't have a dictaphone machine and will have to wait until someone else has finished using one of the 3 machines supplied for use by 12 doctors.

It's common for the back offices in hospitals to never be cleaned or dusted or to have their carpets hoovered or cleaned some secretaries don't even have a waste bin, they have to share with 3 or more other secretaries.

Office equipment is often cheap and shoddy and in one hospital I got so sick of asking for the tools with which to do my job, that I went out and bought my own lime green stapler, hole punch, folders, headphones, and plastic containers to hold the casenotes I was using so that I didn't have to store them on the dirty floor. At one hospital I refused to use the keyboard I was given because it had the remains of what looked like more than a few months worth of lunches stuck between it's keys. Eeewww no thanks.

Computer screens and desks are thick with dust to levels which don't accumulate in weeks but in YEARS and the battery hens (secretaries) don't have time or inclination to clean their own work stations because management won't provide the means to do so. That's how I've caught several infections and had a severe asthma attack which turned into pneumonia requiring emergency hospitalisation and it's also why I was suddenly 'no longer required' when my employer discovered I'd taken ill at my desk.

Ceiling tiles are missing above the heads of employees, dust and dirt and even rain showering down and God knows what else comes down to play at night when the lights are out.

Staff rooms with microwaves, sinks, cupboards etc are just as filthy as the office space and are definitely not places you'd want to eat your lunch unless you wanted to catch C-dif or MRSA.

If you like working in complete and utter filth - become an NHS medical secretary.

Then go for a walk along the Executive Corridor and start comparing and thinking. :think:
 

izzzi

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Drumstick has never attended a 36 weeks pregnant and type 1 diabetic that had a serious problem which caused reason to make a 999 call to request a ambulance to attend, in Yorkshire.

We now know of many different rules the various trust have,

Nevertheless in this case a Patient felt she was let down by the NHS. That is fact.

Roy.
 

GraceK

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izzzi said:
Drumstick has never attended a 36 weeks pregnant and type 1 diabetic that had a serious problem which caused reason to make a 999 call to request a ambulance to attend, in Yorkshire.

We now know of many different rules the various trust have,

Nevertheless in this case a Patient felt she was let down by the NHS. That is fact.

Roy.

That's exactly the point Roy ... we no longer really have a National Health Service because it's not a uniform service covering the whole country. It's a postcode service, it's a fractured and fragmented NHS run by individual Trusts and services vary all over the country from area to area. :***:
 
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This highlighted quote was from Drumstick
>>pre eclampsia/Eclampsia comes to mind and that is serious. This sentence was written by me.

**OMG where did that come from...you're just making this up now

I can tell you that it was not made up, it is an extremly dangerous and life threatening condition. I did say there could be underlining medical problems. Pre eclampsia has other symptoms and medical conditions that are part of Pre eclampsia. one is called HELLP Syndrome, which I had. I didn't call for an ambulance, I walked to my doctors, but there were no doctors on a Sturday morning, but luckily for me as I was walking home, a work colleague drove past, saw that I was in distress ( by the way I was walking) and said he would take me to hospital, I returned home after more than 2 weeks, it was life threatening to me, as the mother and my unborn baby, who had to be delivered at 33 weeks to save both our lives. So do not make an off the cuff and indifferent remark to my post. I do not make things up. :x I hope that is perfectly clear. When a diabetic pregnant woman, with ketones needs quick medical assistant, being assessed at home or taken to hospital, then I still believe an ambulance should of attended.

RRB

Ps Dragonflye I dont think anyone here can really appreciate what went on and how worried and upset you both were regarding your diabetes and the safety of your unborn baby. It must of SO scary at the time.
 

drumstick

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Answer me perleease .
How did the lady get to hospital
How did she get home
How long did triage take
How long did the doctor take to get to examine you.
 

GraceK

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Robinredbreast said:
This highlighted quote was from Drumstick
>>pre eclampsia/Eclampsia comes to mind and that is serious. This sentence was written by me.

**OMG where did that come from...you're just making this up now

I can tell you that it was not made up, it is an extremly dangerous and life threatening condition. I did say there could be underlining medical problems. Pre eclampsia has other symptoms and medical conditions that are part of Pre eclampsia. one is called HELLP Syndrome, which I had. I didn't call for an ambulance, I walked to my doctors, but there were no doctors on a Sturday morning, but luckily for me as I was walking home, a work colleague drove past, saw that I was in distress ( by the way I was walking) and said he would take me to hospital, I returned home after more than 2 weeks, it was life threatening to me, as the mother and my unborn baby, who had to be delivered at 33 weeks to save both our lives. So do not make an off the cuff and indifferent remark to my post. I do not make things up. :x I hope that is perfectly clear. When a diabetic pregnant woman, with ketones needs quick medical assistant, being assessed at home or taken to hospital, then I still believe an ambulance should of attended.

RRB

Ps Dragonflye I dont think anyone here can really appreciate what went on and how worried and upset you both were regarding your diabetes and the safety of your unborn baby. It must of SO scary at the time.

I second that RRB ... :thumbup: ...the ambulance service should have erred on the side of caution in this instance. Shame on them. :***:
 

GraceK

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drumstick said:
Answer me perleease .
How did the lady get to hospital
How did she get home
How long did triage take
How long did the doctor take to get to examine you.

Answer me please ...
Have you ever been pregnant?
Have you already got children?
Have you ever been pregnant, diabetic with ketones?
Have you ever been really, really worried that your condition was so bad that you and your unborn baby might need urgent medical attention from a trained paramedic rather than risk travelling by taxi to hospital with a complete stranger who isn't medically trained?
There is another question I'd like to add here but ... perhaps not. :roll:
 

lucylocket61

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This is a forum where people exchange ideas, opinions and experiences. This is not, and never has been, a place where people interrogate each other.

I think this thread has got out of hand.
 
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