Reversal of T2 by Vegan Diet

[graj0]

Has anyone practical experience of reversing or improving T2 D. by a radical change in dietary habits.?

It is my opinion, therefore I could easily be wrong, that we can improve type II diabetes by making dietary changes.

Reducing carbs will get results quite quickly because less sugar and carbs going into your mouth then the less glucose that will get into the blood. As an example I use to take Gliclazide, Januvia and Metformin and my GP was talking about moving onto insulin injections as a "natural progression" of this disease. I cut carbs initially to lose weight about 2 1/2 years ago, within a matter of weeks I was off Gliclazide and Januvia, insulin has never been mentioned again, and for the last 2 years my HbA1c has been getting better and better, although my daily tests would indicate that I might never "cure" diabetes. I think my liver is quite grateful as my liver function has returned to normal after several years. It initially went off the rails as a result of taking Rosiglitazone which had also helped me gain several stone. I say helped because I didn't eat more or exercise less.

I have followed a low fat diet since 1989 at the latest, that's when I moved in with my wife and she told me that I wasn't going to eat bachelor stuff any more. The fact that I gained 3 stone in the first 3 months is another story but basically low fat meant the following:-only fully skimmed milk, it went off before we finished it, that's how little we used. No butter etc, Flora only. Olive oil in cooking, only in measured amounts. Only the more expensive lean cuts of meat, no skin on chicken etc etc. So I think low fat isn't too bad a description. It didn't prevent weight gain or diabetes.

It is only my opinion that although what Neil Barnard is saying is basically correct, it's not the whole story and he seems to have done what they all do and that is put us all in a one size fits all. We humans just aren't like that. I am continually amazed at how all these so called experts can never agree. Are some wrong and some right, are they all partially right. We are all so different that one size fits all will never work. Even his example of the Japanese eating all that rice is questionable. Maybe it's because they have eaten rice for thousands of years and therefore their metabolism handles it better. He should have mentioned certain peoples in very cold climates who eat a lot of whale blubber. Why do some peoples not tolerate alcohol while others seem to be OK.

For me, low carb, low fat helps keep my BG under control without more and more medication. I presently eat less than 1200 calories a day and go to the gym and swim 3 days a week, plus golf at the weekend. When I work out why that isn't helping me lose weight I'll be a happy bunny.

 

[Indy51]

I heard an interesting take today that I hadn't really occurred to me before, that there is a geographical factor to the amount of carbohydrates traditionally consumed - the closer to the equator, the more carbs and it reduces the further you (or your ancestors) were from it. So, I think you're right about ancestry and adaptation being important, @graj0

 

[seadragon]

I read Dr Barnards stuff on first getting diagnoses (of pre diabetes). It made sense that the fat in the cells may be the key (or a key) to diabetes. However further research and looking at what has been successful for people, made me doubt his further claim that we can reduce the fat in the cells by reducing fat in the diet. That would seem to be the same fallacy of the whole diet/ heart thing that has been a public health disaster for the last 30 years.

Vegan diets while high in healthy vegetables ware also high in carbs and carbs convert instantly to glucose leading to higher blood sugar spikes and glucose that is not used is converted to fat in the cells. Dietary fat on the other hand does not appear to end up as fat in the cells - I'm not sure of the specifics but it seems to be utilised differently. On this basis I looked to the low carb diet which seems to make more sense for diabetics as it avoids the high sugar from carbs in the diet.

I went straight into a low carb/ high fat diet and lost so far about 9 kg in a couple of months without making any efforts to cut calories or bothering to count calories at all. The healthy fats in the diet keep you feeling full and it is naturally much easier to eat less and it doesn't feel like I am denying myself anything. Lovely berries and double cream as a dessert every day and still losing weight - that's the sort of lifestyle diet I like.

Also it has meant I no longer get blood sugar spikes after meals which is all good.

I would imagine you can reduce weight on a vegan diet with reducing calories but I think it is much harder to sustain plus you are more likely to feel hungry and deprived so why put yourself through that hardship when the low carb/healthy fat (olive oil, virgin coconut oil, grass fed butter and grass fed animal fats, free range eggs plus avocado and nuts etc) diet can have the same effects with much less of a struggle.

Just to add that I feel so much better having cut carbs out to a large extent and have new found energy - never need an afternoon nap any more and have taken up cycling, swim in the sea, kayaking, a little weight training and High intensity interval training workouts (literally 4 minutes a day for HIITs) which has had an amazing effect on my aerobic fitness). This extra energy on the low carb high fat diet has to be good for all around health. The vegans I know always seem to be weak and tired. (not saying they all are the same but the ones I see do not look healthy!)

Would also add by way of illustration that this morning I ate a small amount of a paleo cereal (no grains so very low carb) and a boiled egg with added butter!. I then went on an 8 mile bike ride through hilly country lanes. Came home around 1pm and went for a swim in the sea - yes in November - no wetsuit. It's now nearly half past 3 in the afternoon and I haven't had lunch because honestly I am not feeling hungry yet. I could probably do a fast for the rest of the day which I gather can also be good for diabetes management. I am certain I could not have done that fuelled on carbs.

Just another point on listening to the video above. I note that he compared the Vegan diet to a standard American diet. No contest that Vegan is better than standard American. But he has not compared it with a healthy low carb /high fat diet. That would probably also get good results against the current standard advice. So what we need is a comparison of vegan with low carb/high fat. Does anyone have any knowledge of any such studies. Low carb doesn't mean low fibre either - I eat loads of veggies - I just enjoy them with lots of butter or creamy sauces.

Oh just found another point that needs clarification . Yes fat has more calories than carbs per gram but most people can't stuff themselves with fat whereas it is easier to gorge on carbs (Big bag of sweets is easy to eat but how many people can eat a whole carton of double cream?). And I also have a problem with soy as it is highly processed when it's made in to 'fake meat.'

 

[SunnyExpat]

I read Dr Barnards stuff on first getting diagnoses (of pre diabetes). It made sense that the fat in the cells may be the key (or a key) to diabetes. However further research and looking at what has been successful for people, made me doubt his further claim that we can reduce the fat in the cells by reducing fat in the diet. That would seem to be the same fallacy of the whole diet/ heart thing that has been a public health disaster for the last 30 years.

Vegan diets while high in healthy vegetables ware also high in carbs and carbs convert instantly to glucose leading to higher blood sugar spikes and glucose that is not used is converted to fat in the cells. Dietary fat on the other hand does not appear to end up as fat in the cells - I'm not sure of the specifics but it seems to be utilised differently. On this basis I looked to the low carb diet which seems to make more sense for diabetics as it avoids the high sugar from carbs in the diet.

I went straight into a low carb/ high fat diet and lost so far about 9 kg in a couple of months without making any efforts to cut calories or bothering to count calories at all. The healthy fats in the diet keep you feeling full and it is naturally much easier to eat less and it doesn't feel like I am denying myself anything. Lovely berries and double cream as a dessert every day and still losing weight - that's the sort of lifestyle diet I like.

Also it has meant I no longer get blood sugar spikes after meals which is all good.

I would imagine you can reduce weight on a vegan diet with reducing calories but I think it is much harder to sustain plus you are more likely to feel hungry and deprived so why put yourself through that hardship when the low carb/healthy fat (olive oil, virgin coconut oil, grass fed butter and grass fed animal fats, free range eggs plus avocado and nuts etc) diet can have the same effects with much less of a struggle.

Just to add that I feel so much better having cut carbs out to a large extent and have new found energy - never need an afternoon nap any more and have taken up cycling, swim in the sea, kayaking, a little weight training and High intensity interval training workouts (literally 4 minutes a day for HIITs) which has had an amazing effect on my aerobic fitness). This extra energy on the low carb high fat diet has to be good for all around health. The vegans I know always seem to be weak and tired. (not saying they all are the same but the ones I see do not look healthy!)

Would also add by way of illustration that this morning I ate a small amount of a paleo cereal (no grains so very low carb) and a boiled e.g. with added butter!. I then went on an 8 mile bike ride through hilly country lanes. Came home around 1pm and went for a swim in the sea - yes in November - no wetsuit. It's now nearly half past 3 in the afternoon and I haven't had lunch because honestly I am not feeling hungry yet. I could probably do a fast for the rest of the day which I gather can also be good for diabetes management. I am certain I could not have done that fuelled on carbs.

Maybe you should have a read of

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/low-carb-making-news-on-gmb.86636/

I guess we're not all the same as you.

 

[seadragon]

Maybe you should have a read of

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/low-carb-making-news-on-gmb.86636/

I guess we're not all the same as you.

Have read it (your link above) but not sure of your point. It is in favour of low carb diets surely. I never said everyone was the same - Im just giving my experience of the diets as per OPs question.

 

[Celeriac]

Effect of plant-based low carb diet
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19506174

Plant-based low carb v meat-based low carb
http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=746013

These are the only studies that I know of

 

[seadragon]

Effect of plant-based low carb diet
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19506174

Plant-based low carb v meat-based low carb
http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=746013

These are the only studies that I know of

Thanks for those links - interesting but there doesn't seem to be any comparisons of a vegan diet (which can be fairly high carb) with a low carb/high healthy fats (and not necessarily high protein) diet. My lchf diet means I eat a shed load more veggies with their good fibre etc content but I also get the healthy vitamins and nutrients from good fats both animal and plant based and don't go overboard with the protein. I went off Dr Barnard when he advocated eating processed soy products and mentions that you need to take a vitamin supplement on a vegan diet (because of al the things missing when you don't eat the animal fats!)

 

[Celeriac]

I trained as a chef at college and was vegetarian for 14 years. It certainly is conventional wisdom to advise vegans to supplement for things not found in a completely plant-based diet. You can't will fat-soluble vitamins into carrots, for example.

We ate a lot of soya mince when OH and I first lived together, in preference to value burgers because we were skint. We had an allotment, we cooked from scratch but we did fill round the edges with pasta, rice, bread and spuds.

After five years we were able to eliminate the soya and eat fewer carbs. Eight years later though, I was diagnosed with diabetes. I do feel that soya is not always the wonder food it's cracked up to be and may well have contributed to my T2DM.

I am a great believer in eating as wide a range of vegetables as possible and we frequently have veggie meals. Vegetables are full of antioxidants and as you mention, fibre. There's no downside to eating them.






Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[phoenix]

You may also like to look at Denise Minger's latest blog. It's very long and not all about diabetes by any means but she is looking at low fat diets. By low fat she means those that are really low fat (not the 30% often used in trials).Many but not all of them are vegan. There is one that is so full of high glycemic foods that one thinks it shouldn't have any beneficial effect at all but it was very very low fat and had well documented successes, wouldn't personally try that one though )
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in...-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/#more-13758

For recent trials there are some using a macrobiotic diet. This has had short trials in China, Ghana and Italy and a longer one in Cuba. The diet is vegan, very high carb/fibre including some fermented vegetables There is no comparison with any other diet or control but the results are very favourable when compared with other similar 'successful' diet trials. In these trials all the food was prepared for the subjects so it was well tested. The diet is a bit strange to most of us and I wonder if some items are really 'necessary ingredients (though maybe both the fibre and the use of pre and probiotic foods are important ). It certainly needs some much longer trials .Could people do it easily at home? http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dmrr.2519/full
Also ,most people are not a vegetarian and many might find it hard to remove animal products from their diet. No diet can work if you find it hard adhere to it....... Although Denise Minger does mention one doctor whipping his patients into submission!

Dietary fat does end up in fat cells. Here's a primer.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/cellular-microscopic/fat-cell1.htm
and a paper about the conversion of glucose to fat; novo lipogenesis as being the 'road least travelled' http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/6/707.long
Actually fat in fat cells is where it's meant to be. Many researchers think that It is when the cells are approaching fullness that they then try to defend themselves that they become insulin resistant, trying to prevent more fat being stored .(how many fat cells you have and how elastic they are may be very individual so the point that is reached is individual.) This fat then has to go somewhere and may then be deposited elsewhere around and in the organs(heart, liver, pancreas etc) creating further problems.

 

[seadragon]

You may also like to look at Denise Minger's latest blog. It's very long and not all about diabetes by any means but she is looking at low fat diets. By low fat she means those that are really low fat (not the 30% often used in trials).Many but not all of them are vegan. There is one that is so full of high glycemic foods that one thinks it shouldn't have any beneficial effect at all but it was very very low fat and had well documented successes, wouldn't personally try that one though )
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in...-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/#more-13758

For recent trials there are some using a macrobiotic diet. This has had short trials in China, Ghana and Italy and a longer one in Cuba. The diet is vegan, very high carb/fibre including some fermented vegetables There is no comparison with any other diet or control but the results are very favourable when compared with other similar 'successful' diet trials. In these trials all the food was prepared for the subjects so it was well tested. The diet is a bit strange to most of us and I wonder if some items are really 'necessary ingredients (though maybe both the fibre and the use of pre and probiotic foods are important ). It certainly needs some much longer trials .Could people do it easily at home? http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dmrr.2519/full
Also ,most people are not a vegetarian and many might find it hard to remove animal products from their diet. No diet can work if you find it hard adhere to it....... Although Denise Minger does mention one doctor whipping his patients into submission!

Dietary fat does end up in fat cells. Here's a primer.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/cellular-microscopic/fat-cell1.htm
and a paper about the conversion of glucose to fat; novo lipogenesis as being the 'road least travelled' http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/6/707.long
Actually fat in fat cells is where it's meant to be. Many researchers think that It is when the cells are approaching fullness that they then try to defend themselves that they become insulin resistant, trying to prevent more fat being stored .(how many fat cells you have and how elastic they are may be very individual so the point that is reached is individual.) This fat then has to go somewhere and may then be deposited elsewhere around and in the organs(heart, liver, pancreas etc) creating further problems.

Fascinating stuff Phoenix. Perhaps one of the reasons low carb/high fat diets seem to work for weight loss is because of the extra energy it must take to convert the fat back to glucose for energy which it would have to do in the absence of glucose. I think it's probably more successful as the low carb/high fat diet is actually a lot easier - no weird or extreme foods and for most people no need to count calories or feel hungry and it still works as the high fat content makes most people feel full on less food. Much harder to binge on fat than carbs. The real killer in any diet would seem to be the 50/50 fat/carb mix which makes for the most delicious foods! Also it would seem that by lowering glucose from sugars and carbs thereby reducing insulin spikes it prevents the storage of fat in the first place.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Fascinating stuff Phoenix. Perhaps one of the reasons low carb/high fat diets seem to work for weight loss is because of the extra energy it must take to convert the fat back to glucose for energy which it would have to do in the absence of glucose. I think it's probably more successful as the low carb/high fat diet is actually a lot easier - no weird or extreme foods and for most people no need to count calories or feel hungry and it still works as the high fat content makes most people feel full on less food. Much harder to binge on fat than carbs. The real killer in any diet would seem to be the 50/50 fat/carb mix which makes for the most delicious foods! Also it would seem that by lowering glucose from sugars and carbs thereby reducing insulin spikes it prevents the storage of fat in the first place.

Doesn't seem to work for me.

 

[Celeriac]

((((((SunnyExpat))))))

I read a comment by a doctor on a blog once, which stayed with me. When you see that BG numbers have gone down after a meal, it's because insulin has pushed glucose into your cells and if unused as energy it's laid down as fat. He said effectively, if you have diabetes you're having to lose weight twice.

 

[runner2009]

((((((SunnyExpat))))))

I read a comment by a doctor on a blog once, which stayed with me. When you see that BG numbers have gone down after a meal, it's because insulin has pushed glucose into your cells and if unused as energy it's laid down as fat. He said effectively, if you have diabetes you're having to lose weight twice.

We can all have our different parameters of the types of food and its affects on our individual metabolism but the basic laws of thermal dynamics still hold true.

When I weigh my food and keep a strict food diary I'm always amazed at how low my base calorie requirements are to keep my BMI in the normal range - bottom line for me I overeat whether it's carbs fats or protien! And my base to maintain my ideal weight is under 1,200 calories. What a disaster.

A high carb diet consisting mostly of leafy vegetables and between 35 to 55g of fiber a day is my best defense.

It's not easy.

 

[seadragon]

So it seems a very high carb low fat (where fat is less than 10% of total diet ) and low carb high fat where carb is less than about 10% both seem to work for weight loss. It's the middle area that can be a problem. What i find surprising is that both diets apparently help diabetics where I would not expect a high carb diet to be at all helpful due to the high glucose levels from carbs. I'm almost tempted to try to work out my current calorie intake but can't really be bothered with that much hassle. Key would seem to be doing what works for you.

 

[SunnyExpat]

So it seems a very high carb low fat (where fat is less than 10% of total diet ) and low carb high fat where carb is less than about 10% both seem to work for weight loss. It's the middle area that can be a problem. What i find surprising is that both diets apparently help diabetics where I would not expect a high carb diet to be at all helpful due to the high glucose levels from carbs. I'm almost tempted to try to work out my current calorie intake but can't really be bothered with that much hassle. Key would seem to be doing what works for you.

No, any diet where my calorie intake is below my threshold works for weight loss. What the calories are makes no difference at all to me.
Equally, if the calories are over my threshold, I gain weight, again it matters not what the calories are.

My BG is affected by the mix, but also by the quantity, so LCHF is better if I am truly pigging out, as the percentage of carbs is lower so the quantity is lower. If my calories are limited, I can eat a much higher ration of carbs to fat and protein.
The GI of the carb is important to me, all carbs are not equal.

 

[runner2009]

So it seems a very high carb low fat (where fat is less than 10% of total diet ) and low carb high fat where carb is less than about 10% both seem to work for weight loss. It's the middle area that can be a problem. What i find surprising is that both diets apparently help diabetics where I would not expect a high carb diet to be at all helpful due to the high glucose levels from carbs. I'm almost tempted to try to work out my current calorie intake but can't really be bothered with that much hassle. Key would seem to be doing what works for you.

I totally agree with you. And that middle ground is where individual genetic and metabolic syndrome come to play.

After struggling with this issue for years, I believe there are a few truisms:

1> We over estimate the amount of calories we burn
2> The standard base calorie requirements for most of us is too high
3> We underestimate the number of calories we consume.
4> Humans and most mammals are hard wired to overeat high density caloric foods whether they are plant or animal base.

Look at our dogs, if we keep them trim per the vet standards they are hungry all the time.

Let's say that to maintain a normal BMI of 21 to 22 with moderate amounts of activity you need under 1,500 calories a day, whether you eat 10, 20 or 30% of your calories in fats or carbs its not going to make that much difference.

 

[runner2009]

No, any diet where my calorie intake is below my threshold works for weight loss. What the calories are makes no difference at all to me.
Equally, if the calories are over my threshold, I gain weight, again it matters not what the calories are.

My BG is affected by the mix, but also by the quantity, so LCHF is better if I am truly pigging out, as the percentage of carbs is lower so the quantity is lower. If my calories are limited, I can eat a much higher ration of carbs to fat and protein.
The GI of the carb is important to me, all carbs are not equal.

Totally agree with you couldn't have said it any better. My problem is I could pig out every day (-%

 

[Brunneria]

Let's say that to maintain a normal BMI of 21 to 22 with moderate amounts of activity you need under 1,500 calories a day, whether you eat 10, 20 or 30% of your calories in fats or carbs its not going to make that much difference.

Except that i gain weight if that 1500 calorie intake comes primarily from carbs, and can lose weight on 2000+ calories if they come primarily from fat.

Sticking to the standard calorie theory does not work for everyone.

 

[seadragon]

I wasn't implying you couldn't lose weight other than by those two methods but they do seem to be well proven for most people to work better than simple calorie out equalling calorie in regardless of calorie type. Keeping one or other of fats or carbs very low makes weight loss for most people much easier. if you stick to the middle ground then maybe it is more of a case of having to restrict calories whereas people on both low carb high fat and high fat low carb appear to have found that they can lose weight even while eating to fullness and not bothering to count calories at all. So unrestricted fat but low carbs works and unrestricted carbs but low fats works (regardless of calories consumed). However anyone in the middle ground is likely to have a harder time losing weight as they will need to cut calories to have the same effect on weight loss. Restricting calories is what seems to lead to the other problems of bodies going in to starvation mode and rebound weight gain etc etc. Anyway if you have found what works for you then great whatever it is.

 

[runner2009]

Except that i gain weight if that 1500 calorie intake comes primarily from carbs, and can lose weight on 2000+ calories if they come primarily from fat.

Sticking to the standard calorie theory does not work for everyone.

Agree, standard formula is bunk. For, me the type of carbs makes a huge difference both in weight gain and BG