Reversal of T2 by Vegan Diet

[SunnyExpat]

I wasn't implying you couldn't lose weight other than by those two methods but they do seem to be well proven for most people to work better than simple calorie out equalling calorie in regardless of calorie type. Keeping one or other of fats or carbs very low makes weight loss for most people much easier. if you stick to the middle ground then maybe it is more of a case of having to restrict calories whereas people on both low carb high fat and high fat low carb appear to have found that they can lose weight even while eating to fullness and not bothering to count calories at all. So unrestricted fat but low carbs works and unrestricted carbs but low fats works (regardless of calories consumed). However anyone in the middle ground is likely to have a harder time losing weight as they will need to cut calories to have the same effect on weight loss. Restricting calories is what seems to lead to the other problems of bodies going in to starvation mode and rebound weight gain etc etc. Anyway if you have found what works for you then great whatever it is.

Fortunately I don't have a starvation mode.

 

[runner2009]

Fortunately I don't have a starvation mode.

Lucky YOU!!!

 

[SunnyExpat]

Lucky YOU!!!

Got to win at something.

Although, I do often feel starving.

 

[Brunneria]

I wasn't implying you couldn't lose weight other than by those two methods but they do seem to be well proven for most people to work better than simple calorie out equalling calorie in regardless of calorie type. Keeping one or other of fats or carbs very low makes weight loss for most people much easier. if you stick to the middle ground then maybe it is more of a case of having to restrict calories whereas people on both low carb high fat and high fat low carb appear to have found that they can lose weight even while eating to fullness and not bothering to count calories at all. So unrestricted fat but low carbs works and unrestricted carbs but low fats works (regardless of calories consumed). However anyone in the middle ground is likely to have a harder time losing weight as they will need to cut calories to have the same effect on weight loss. Restricting calories is what seems to lead to the other problems of bodies going in to starvation mode and rebound weight gain etc etc. Anyway if you have found what works for you then great whatever it is.

Yes, I have often likened it to being on a seesaw - where the most challenging thing is finding out where your personal tipping point on the fat v carbs seesaw is...

Don't worry, I didn't take what you said as criticism - nowadays I just get wary whenever people start throwing 'calorie theory' around. Mainly because the people who get the calorie ideology shoved at them the most (serial dieters, menopausal women, etc) are the ones who have been testing the calorie theory on their own bodies, for decades, and have found that it doesn't work.

I will shut up now.

(and apologies to you, @seadragon if your comment was not aimed at me - I have several people on ignore at the moment, and have just noticed that there are gaps in this thread for posts I cannot see so if you were replying to someone else, please disregard my comment!)

 

[seadragon]

Yes, I have often likened it to being on a seesaw - where the most challenging thing is finding out where your personal tipping point on the fat v carbs seesaw is...

Don't worry, I didn't take what you said as criticism - nowadays I just get wary whenever people start throwing 'calorie theory' around. Mainly because the people who get the calorie ideology shoved at them the most (serial dieters, menopausal women, etc) are the ones who have been testing the calorie theory on their own bodies, for decades, and have found that it doesn't work.

I will shut up now.

(and apologies to you, @seadragon if your comment was not aimed at me - I have several people on ignore at the moment, and have just noticed that there are gaps in this thread for posts I cannot see so if you were replying to someone else, please disregard my comment!)

No it wasn't aimed at you but no worries. After extensive reading I am very much of the opinion that calories in being less than calories out does not necessarily lead to weight loss nor vice versa - although I would have very much believed that a year ago. I know the LCHF diet works for many including me (especially if carbs are below the apparently magic 10% of intake) but was surprised to read on Phoenix' link about the success of some on the opposite of high carb low fat (but I still can't believe that is the best way for diabetics). Anyway I'll take my 9kg weight loss and much lowered BGs and run.
Good luck to everyone on their quest for what works for them.

 

[seadragon]

Fortunately I don't have a starvation mode.

Didn't you say earlier that you weren't losing weight even on less calories in than out - and you are starving - seems like that would be starvation mode no? Did I misunderstand your earlier post?

 

[SunnyExpat]

Didn't you say earlier that you weren't losing weight even on less calories in than out - and you are starving - seems like that would be starvation mode no? Did I misunderstand your earlier post?

No, I lose weight when I eat less calories, I gain weight when I eat more.
Very consistent, very predictable, it doesn't matter if the calories are fat, carbs, or protein, they all make no gain weight beyond my personal threshold.
However, fat doesn't make me satiated, I could keep eating way beyond the point where I should stop.

My metabolism doesn't change, I don't have a starvation gene, when I eat again, my weight will still start to rise, (or fall), at my consistent calorie tipping point.

 

[Daibell]

Don't forget that carbs will increase blood sugar whereas fats will only by small amounts, hence for many of us as diabetics it makes sense to go towards reducing the carbs rather than fats even if the weight effect for you is the same.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Don't forget that carbs will increase blood sugar whereas fats will only by small amounts, hence for many of us as diabetics it makes sense to go towards reducing the carbs rather than fats even if the weight effect for you is the same.

That wasn't the question in this thread though.
It was for a response from those that did a vegan diet to reverse T2.

I did actually do a very low fat,vegetable based diet, I won't claim it was entirely vegan, but it was lacking in fat.
It was reduced calorie, as I know personally, if my calories go up, I don't lose weight.
Fat has twice the calories of the carbs in veg, so for a low calorie diet, leaving out fat is a no brainer.
I lost weight on this diet, so for me, it was a very good result. I kept my calories lower, my BG was good, my weight went down, and my insulin resistance shows a marked improvement still.
I won't claim to have 'reversed' T2, maybe I need to lose more weight, but I do have normal HBA1C, and fasting level in the 5's.
However, unless I exercise, I do see spikes from 'bad' carbs, (bad meaning those which predictably give me high readings on my meter), but these do fall reasonably well.

All carbs are by no means the same, to me.

 

[Celeriac]

All Carbs Are Not Equal. I seem gradually to have become unable to eat processed carbs yet stuff myself with non starchy veg to the point that yes I have consumed more than the 9g in that toddler size corn snack.

 

[robertconroy]

Sounds stupid. Only plants can cause diabetes. Meats have 0 carbs unless processed.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Sounds stupid. Only plants can cause diabetes. Meats have 0 carbs unless processed.

You have a lot to learn about protein.

 

[runner2009]

All Carbs Are Not Equal. I seem gradually to have become unable to eat processed carbs yet stuff myself with non starchy veg to the point that yes I have consumed more than the 9g in that toddler size corn snack.

I'm the same way. I can eat cabbage by the head which has a surprisingly amount of carbs but low cals - 50g of carbs should be 50g no matter what food. But because of the fiber or low calorie density, my BG rises normally and falls quickly too.

If I eat a hunk of cheese before bed, my FBG is much higher in the am unless I give myself insulin. Eating veggie snack ( or 2 cups of popped popcorn ) before bed FBG on average is much lower

 

[runner2009]

You have a lot to learn about protein.

Up to 50% or more of protien is converted to glucose. Fats too can be converted but not as easily as protien.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

 

[Celeriac]

I think it's something like 7% of the protein consumed is used for muscle growth and repair etc and the excess as runner2009 says can be turned into glucose. If unused it gets stored as fat. Protein takes longer to digest than carbs though so a rise in BG is much slower. Lots of T1s bolus insulin for protein.

Beans. pulses, legumes - they are all pretty carby. They do supply amino acids but they're obviously deficient in fat soluble minerals. It's quite possible to be an obese vegan if you eat a lot of bread, beans, pasta, muesli with carby fake milks, starchy root veg and vegan cupcakes for example.

 

[runner2009]

It's quite possible to be an obese vegan if you eat a lot of bread, beans, pasta, muesli with carby fake milks, starchy root veg and vegan cupcakes for example.

The old 80/20 rule takes over:

Being overweight = ( (laws of thermodynamics )* .8) + ((individual variations )*.2)

For me veggie diet with minimum processed foods such as bread and pasta and low natural fats makes difficult to over eat at anyone time thus my BG is better overall and my weight is lower also keeping better BG control with less insulin

 

[uart]

I think it's something like 7% of the protein consumed is used for muscle growth and repair etc and the excess as runner2009 says can be turned into glucose.

No, typically much more than 7% of protein intake is used that way. What I think is probably confusing you here is that for an average person about 7% or 8% minimum of their calorie intake needs to be protein because it's used for those vital functions.

This really is a minimum and very active people need more. And of course that function of protein (cell repair) is so critically important to our health that no one recommends this minimum as the actual daily intake, so most of us will (quite rightly) eat around double that minimum.

This of course means that typically we have about 50% of our protein intake not needed for cell repair and available to be converted to glucose for energy. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Yorksman]

I can imagine that a zero fat diet will cause enough weight loss to unblock those beta cells

I can only lose weight by eating less.
The balance doesn't really come into it for me, in fact I lose more weight on low fat, low calorie, I increase the fat to maintain my weight.

Low fat, low calorie, low carb and exercise. Weight comes off quickly at first but then the rate slows down.

But patience is a virtue here. As a diabetic you're in it for the long duration, not just trying to get in shape for a holiday.

I find cooking curbs hunger pangs. The act of preparing food seems to take your mind off it. Mind you, it doesn't work if you're making rhubarb crumble and custard!

 

[SunnyExpat]

I can imagine that a zero fat diet will cause enough weight loss to unblock those beta cells


Low fat, low calorie, low carb and exercise. Weight comes off quickly at first but then the rate slows down.

But patience is a virtue here. As a diabetic you're in it for the long duration, not just trying to get in shape for a holiday.

I find cooking curbs hunger pangs. The act of preparing food seems to take your mind off it. Mind you, it doesn't work if you're making rhubarb crumble and custard!

That is very true.
If I feel hungry, I usually start to prepare the meal as well. Then I have a target point to focus on, and can manage not to eat until meal times.

 

[rowena953]

Since being diagnosed with T1.5 over 2-years ago I've tried numerous techniques to control both weight and BG.

Looking at both end points as equally important. The most successful was when I was on a consistent carbohydrate / low fat diet with short high intensity workouts.

The diet was basically no more than 90carbs a day, fats from vegetables with no added oils - very limited dairy, eggs but no meats and no more than 4oz of fish at any meal.

Snacks were popcorn, veggies and Edamame hummus and very controlled nut intake.

My BMI was 26.5 and A1C was 4.8 I used 3 to 6 units 75/25 a day.

I hurt my back, stopped working out and switched to a LCHF - very very low carbs diet -, meats added oils, carbs from veggies only, lots of cheese etc.

No more snacking on popcorn but cheeses, peanut butter and nuts.

Basically, my weight increased in 9-months to BMI 31.5 and A1C to 5.3 but insulin sky rocked to 9 to 18 units of 75/25 ( on a super low carbs.

4-weeks ago I started on the NC diet and things are turning around, weight loss, good fasting Blood sugars 4.2 to 4.8

I do the shakes and tons of veggies either in soups or stir fried with no oils

Here is my take away:

Dr. Bernstein who promotes the LCHD, eats a low calorie diet that is under 1,400 calories a day with strict portion control. He also does High Intensity workouts every day.

For me portion control and the love of fatty salty foods and fruits has always been an issue.

If I am eating or snacking on veggies, popcorn and a cup turns into a ton, I'm not going to injest that many calories - " I just over ate an extra head of cabbage oh no I've eaten 50 calories ".

If I have to increase my insulin to cover, there is not much nutrients that are going to be forced into my fat cells.

On the other hand if a few nuts turn into a couple handfuls or 4oz of pork belly turn into 12oz or a piece of cheese turns into a hunk, I've just eaten a **** load of calories.

Myself, I'm going to by nature overeat and I can't count on my exercising to help control my weight - as my bad back proved that fact.

A diet of low density carbs and low density calories is best for my body type ( genes ) and personality.

One last thing, for me adding as much muscle as one can is super helpful in controlling BG even dawn phenomena. I've even timed my food and insulin injections around weight lifting.

One does not need to go to a gym nor have tons of weights - a kettle ball and a few sets of dumbells are enough and the fortitude to push yourself to muscle failure and then again ( no matter how low the weights - standing wall push ups work too just push to failure ) to open the path ways to accept the nutrients for muscle growth.