Reversing Diabetes Online Summit

[Indy51]

@Giverny
I'd like to make a suggestion that the videos in this thread be included in a sticky for the Prediabetes/Type 2/Newly Diagnosed section of the board? It is excellent information that could be of huge help to the highly motivated and newly diagnosed.

 

[trotskyite]

I

@Giverny
I'd like to make a suggestion that the videos in this thread be included in a sticky for the Prediabetes/Type 2/Newly Diagnosed section of the board? It is excellent information that could be of huge help to the highly motivated and newly diagnosed.

I agree, it could help a lot of people

 

[andcol]

I think all of this information needs to be presented to type 2 diabetics on diagnosis. Nothing like it was told to me when I was diagnosed Type 2 in 2012.

Seems to be too late for me now (as evidenced by continued high BG despite weight loss and recent experiments with fasting) - and probably too late when I was diagnosed as I'd had 2 previous prediabetic diagnoses before that when weight was gained, reversed when weight lost. I seem to have had varying degrees of metabolic syndrome for 20+ years.

I would urge any recently diagnosed person, especially those with prediabetic status, to follow one of the reversal protocols ASAP and to take the advice not to regain weight very seriously indeed.

I agree and I was never informed by this from the doctor/DSN/Diabetes Course. Infact their information basically just reinforced "There is no cure and you are going to get worse no matter what you do"! Such a defeatist attitude and gives people no hope so why would joe public even try!

PS I didn't "like" the fact it is too late for you (that is sad) but that you demand all should be told

 

[trotskyite]

I think all of this information needs to be presented to type 2 diabetics on diagnosis. Nothing like it was told to me when I was diagnosed Type 2 in 2012.

Seems to be too late for me now (as evidenced by continued high BG despite weight loss and recent experiments with fasting) - and probably too late when I was diagnosed as I'd had 2 previous prediabetic diagnoses before that when weight was gained, reversed when weight lost. I seem to have had varying degrees of metabolic syndrome for 20+ years.

I would urge any recently diagnosed person, especially those with prediabetic status, to follow one of the reversal protocols ASAP and to take the advice not to regain weight very seriously indeed.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/1047.long
Type 2 Diabetes Etiology and reversibility
"In light of new knowledge about β-cell apoptosis and rates of turnover during adult life, it is conceivable that removal of adverse factors could result in restoration of normal β-cell number, even late in the disease (66,70). Plasticity of lineage and transdifferentiation of human adult β-cells could also be relevant, and the evidence for this has recently been reviewed (71). β-Cell number following reversal of type 2 diabetes remains to be examined, but overall, it is clear that at least a critical mass of β-cells is not permanently damaged but merely metabolically inhibited."

 

[Indy51]

I agree and I was never informed by this from the doctor/DSN/Diabetes Course. Infact their information basically just reinforced "There is no cure and you are going to get worse no matter what you do"! Such a defeatist attitude and gives people no hope so why would joe public even try!

PS I didn't "like" the fact it is too late for you (that is sad) but that you demand all should be told

Thanks Andrew. It really boosts my spirits when I read about the success that you and others at this forum have had with your proactive, take-charge attitudes to your diagnosis.

And so sad that HCPs are still telling people outdated nonsense and leaving them essentially without hope unless they go looking for themselves.

 

[Spiker]

The Prof Taylor article is incredible. This is a revolution in the understanding of T2 and should herald a treatment revolution as well. I'm just overjoyed. And I'm not T2 myself.

Basically 8 weeks on a 600 cal/day diet, and T2 is gone. And stays gone if you can hold to some sort of maintenance programme.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[mine]

i am sad to see a lot of old folks queuing up to get their medication.

once i was waiting for my turn, i spoke to one of them and she said that she has it for years, medication are going uphill since it is progressive and she will only empty her savings. she is going to spend it on nice food and hope she would die from an heart attack in the middle of the night.

a nurse told me that all the patient behave the same way, it is very discouraging for her to see that the very life they are trying to save are giving up on themselves. A doctor read all the printout i have but he told me that the medical council did not allow them claim it as reversible.

if the government did not order medication in huge quantities, it will be expensive. this in turn will cost a bigger burden for the poor who needs this medication.

i hope all of us would help ourselves and break from this vicious cycle. if we do not do it now, the burden will be pass down to next generation and then next.

 

[zand]

Basically 8 weeks on a 600 cal/day diet, and T2 is gone. And stays gone if you can hold to some sort of maintenance programme.

I tried this around 2 years ago. Sadly I only managed 7 weeks at 600 calories because I had really bad back pains which started at 4 weeks and got progressively worse and became unbearable. I think I needed more protein and fat, but that's hard when you can only have 600 calories. I had mostly vegetables. It did help me temporarily but I needed to stock up again on the nutrients I was short of, so the success was shortlived. So for me, the maintenance program was where I failed.

 

[andcol]

I don't think 600 kcal is the key. It is removal of the fat from the liver and pancreas. I ate a lot more than 600 kcal (probably double it). I think Prof Taylor chose that figure because of the sachets he was using and some minimal bodily requirements. I think I read in one of his documents that it is the taking part and not the journey that matters (not quite those words but you get my drift).

 

[Indy51]

I'm probably going to continue with either a real food version of 800 cal per day or the alternate day fasting for 36 hours. I found the fasting to be relatively easy and I figure if I ate 1 meal a day, I'd probably be around that level of calories. Without having a scan to check the fat levels in the liver and pancreas, it's really guess work though. I've been on LCHF and mostly under 80g carbs for nearly 2 years, plus my liver enzymes are fine - so I'd like to think the fatty liver/pancreas has reversed, but no real evidence to prove it and it hasn't normalised my BG levels the way it's done for so many others.

Weird thing was, my body seems to want to defend my current weight - with fasting alternate days for a week, I didn't lose any weight at all - bounced up and down by a 1kg, but as soon as I started eating, went back to my usual weight. Grrrrrrrrr!

 

[sanguine]

i am sad to see a lot of old folks queuing up to get their medication.

once i was waiting for my turn, i spoke to one of them and she said that she has it for years, medication are going uphill since it is progressive and she will only empty her savings. she is going to spend it on nice food and hope she would die from an heart attack in the middle of the night.

a nurse told me that all the patient behave the same way, it is very discouraging for her to see that the very life they are trying to save are giving up on themselves. A doctor read all the printout i have but he told me that the medical council did not allow them claim it as reversible.

I could ask this (no doubt rhetorical) question on any number of threads, but this seems logical for now. Don't the GPs and DNs ever look at the slowly rising HbA1c levels of the majority of their diabetic patients and question the advice they are giving them? Because it's not working is it? Or do they just think this is how it's supposed to go, because that's what the guidelines tell us, and give out more meds to compensate. In any other scientific industry this would be regarded as negligent. I watched some of the video of that doctor in Kansas (sorry can't remember her name atm) on dietdoctor.com and thought yes, this is what GPs used to be like and this is what they should be like instead of box-tickers and drug-peddlers.

 

[zand]

I could ask this (no doubt rhetorical) question on any number of threads, but this seems logical for now. Don't the GPs and DNs ever look at the slowly rising HbA1c levels of the majority of their diabetic patients and question the advice they are giving them? Because it's not working is it? Or do they just think this is how it's supposed to go, because that's what the guidelines tell us, and give out more meds to compensate. In any other scientific industry this would be regarded as negligent. I watched some of the video of that doctor in Kansas (sorry can't remember her name atm) on dietdoctor.com and thought yes, this is what GPs used to be like and this is what they should be like instead of box-tickers and drug-peddlers.

I think they believe that the patients are not listening to the medical profession's 'good advice' and therefore not following their rules. So it's the patient's fault that HbA1c's are rising. One GP was commenting on my weight and said that he wasn't nagging me to lose weight as it was personal choice. NO, IT WAS NEVER MY PERSONAL CHOICE TO BE MORBIDLY OBESE!!!! Several factors joined together to make me this way. One of these was eating too much of the wrong foods, but there were many other things happening too.

 

[sanguine]

So it's either

1) You're not following our dietary advice
2) You say you are but you must be lying
3) Some other factor that we can't do anything about, have some more smarties

 

[zand]

Yes exactly!

 

[AndBreathe]

Approved drugs are tested in controlled conditions, in order to assure the rigour of results.

Patients are not standard. They are largely not controlled, and based on the keep eating carbs, they probably mainly do.

I don't want to sound pompous here, but lets not forget we are some of the motivated ones on here. I'm not suggesting there are no motivated diabetics with great control out there who have never heard of this place. But if they're happy to blindly follow the guidance they are given, why would they look any further?

So couple all of that with "of course we need treats", and you have loose control and the potential for progression.

Undoubtedly, some people have drawn the short straw in the diabetes lottery and their condition will progress - perhaps due to an overly damaged pancreas at diagnosis, but the whole thing is very sad.

I struggle a bit with the statement:

"Basically 8 weeks on a 600 cal/day diet, and T2 is gone. And stays gone if you can hold to some sort of maintenance programme."

It appears significant weight loss is critical to the outcomes. Those of us who would be exceedingly under weight if we lost 20% of our body weight have some challenges around that. If it was as simple as you suggest, I contest we would be seeing massive reversals. For a complete turnaround, I think almost anyone can do anything for a few weeks.

Sorry for the rant, but I think I may have got out of bed on the wrong side this morning.

 

[carty]

If signifcant weight loss is vital what happens to people like me I weigh 43k if I lost 20%of that I would probably wash away in the shower !! It is very difficult to eat enough calories to even maintain weight whilst keeping carbs low enough to keep BGs at any sort of managable level .Rant Rant Help !
CAROL

 

[AndBreathe]

I'm not quite as slight as you are Carty.

I have done some research into the aspects of visceral versus subcutaneous fat, with visceral being quite important in diabetes. I bought myself a body composition monitor, which, by way of multi point measurements (foot plates, plus hand grips) measures weight, muscle and fat percentages, visceral fat scores, BMI,and also calculates a base metabolic rate, based on personal data added to a stored profile. I am 4 (from a score range of 30, with 1 - 9 being "normal"), so don't have much to go at.

If I felt an ultra low calorie diet for 8 weeks would sort me once and done, I'd have completed it well before now, but I think I would look, and probably feel awful.

Please don't think I'm trying to discredit Prof Taylor's work. I'm not. But, as is usual with diabetes, it's not always that simple. Anyone giving it a go, provided they are fit enough to cope with the stress their body will be under, has my admiration and support.

 

[Spiker]

I'm not suggesting 8 weeks on a 600 cal / day diet would be easy. It would be extremely hard, and frankly even most highly motivated people probably wouldn't make it. What's amazing is how clearly shows where the T2 problem comes from, and how it could be reversed. The same article points out that such a diet would cause an unsafe rate of weight loss. But other studies with less aggressive calorie restriction also had impressive results (though not total reversal).


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[Spiker]

The key factor was not loss of body weight but reduction of body fat in general but particularly reduction of liver fat. The 8 weeks is an extreme lipolytic, ketogenic diet to burn off the liver fat.


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[AndBreathe]

What's amazing is how clearly shows where the T2 problem comes from, and how it could be reversed.

Now I could get really quite irritated. Nice value judgement there spiker.

It is my belief that for anyone to develop T2 diabetes there must be some form of genetic predisposition, otherwise everyone with love handles, a muffin-top or beer belly would be on Metformin, and they're not. Conversely, not everyone with T2 is or was overweight.

Gross generalisations aren't helpful.

I think it's time for my swim. I may just swim further and faster today, so there'll be an up-side after all.