Reversing Type 2 Diabetes / Vegan ?

[Ms.Vegan]

Hello everyone
I'm new to the site, and I signed up specifically for my mother. She recently has been diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes, and she's determined to fight and reverse it. I went to her diabetic nutritionist today, and she mentioned Dr. Barnard's book on reversal of T2 diabetes. My question does anyone know anymore information or actually tried an all vegan diet? I tried to research it, but there aren't many articles. Does it lower your sugar levels significantly over time? I'm just looking for some feedback. Thanks!

 

[Mothman]

Hi there, welcome to the forum.

Dont know much about vegan diets but i reccon that would be one hell of an effort for someone who isnt a vegetarian[ime assuming your mum isnt at the moment].

For different reasons, i went gluten free and that has significantly reduced my blood sugar levels. However, carbohydrate control and reduction seems to be of major help. Ime sure other more expert forum members will agree here and be able to give you more information.
Excercise will help too but this depends on how mobile your mum is.
My mum who is also T2, can only get about on a zimmer frame and her diabetes is well under control with her meds and of course helped with my diet.

Andy

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Hi Ms.Vegan I would agree with Mothman here to go from a normal eat anything diet to a vegan diet unless you are so pro animal rights that you refuse to eat anything with a face Is going to be a hell of a step to take and totally unnecessary in my opinion, your mum will almost certainly be able to control her diabetes by reduction of the carbs she eats and a general reduction in her total food intake.

Regardless of what Dr Barnard, Dr Dugan and other nutters say diabetes is for life unfortunately, it can be control and non diabetic levels of blood glucose can and are achieved by many but those people are still diabetics, just well controlled diabetics. Diabetes will always be lurking in the background waiting to bite the well controlled should they let their tight control slip.

Try to remember that until a medical breakthrough happens and a cure is found, diabetes is for life and to control it one must adopt a lifestyle that they can sustain for a lifetime, diets are for the short term and rarely work, what is needed is a lifestyle change that can be sustained and most of us Type 2 diabetics here find that that lifestyle includes exercise and carbohydrate reduction, how much carbohydrate to reduce is an individual choice made as I say by what the individual is able to sustain long term.

Every diabetic is slightly different depending on the severity of their condition, the amount of insulin resistance one has and the damage to the pancreas which has already occurred, some T2 diabetics require medication from the start others can live meds free for many years by diet and exercise alone.

Have a read through the forum you will find lots of advice about carb reduction and living with diabetes

Ps.

I went to her diabetic nutritionist today, and she mentioned Dr. Barnard's book on reversal of T2 diabetes.

I have never heard of a diabetic nutritionist and would be very weary of anyone claiming to be one, only registered NHS Dieticians should be consulted about diabetic related diets and I would be most surprised by any of them recommending a vegan diet in fact I think they would risk being struck of by the medical council if they did so :thumbdown: Who recommended this 'Nutritionist' to you? And what qualifications did they have?

 

[phoenix]

Barnard's diet can help reduce blood glucose levels and has at least undergone some form of clinical trial.

Both a low-fat vegan diet and a diet based on ADA guidelines improved glycemic and lipid control in type 2 diabetic patients. These improvements were greater with a low-fat vegan diet

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1777.short
but the improvements weren't that much better than the ADA diet, it certainly didn't 'reverse' diabetes. There have been other diet trials using low glycemic index and load that have had even better success.
Changing to a vegan diet is something that would be extremely difficult for most people to keep up and any restrictive eating plan isn't likely to be kept up long term.

 

[Grazer]

Agree with all above (WOT?? Even Sid??). Anyway, reducing carbs to a more moderate level doesn't mean you have to up the fats.

 

[Unbeliever]

I totally agree with all the above. I eat a largely vegetarian diet but I began to do so many years ago. Vegan is something which is a major commitment at any time .

Learning to cope wih diabees while making a major lifestyle choice such as adoping a vegan die at the same time is probably not a god idea. It might even be dangerous.

It worries me when I hear that people want o "fight and beat " diabetes. I understand the feeling I had it myself on diagnosis but as Sid says its. more a matter of learnig o live with i as ,at presen it is no possible to rid yourself of i.

I should imagine that a vegan diet would have an impact on health by itself. This could make it more diffficult for your mother to learn how o cope with her diabees, Just reducing carbs can afffect one initially. if your mother learns o control her diabetes well and sill wants to consider a vegan liesyle after a while hat is a different matter but still probably quite risky..

Its all about knowing your body and how it reacts. Coming to terms wih diabetes is hard enough -a major change in lifestyle too so soon after diagnosis , sounds like a recipe for disaster.

 

[wellwell1212]

Try to remember that until a medical breakthrough happens and a cure is found, diabetes is for life and to control it one must adopt a lifestyle that they can sustain for a lifetime, diets are for the short term and rarely work, what is needed is a lifestyle change that can be sustained and most of us Type 2 diabetics here find that that lifestyle includes exercise and carbohydrate reduction, how much carbohydrate to reduce is an individual choice made as I say by what the individual is able to sustain long term.

Every diabetic is slightly different depending on the severity of their condition, the amount of insulin resistance one has and the damage to the pancreas which has already occurred, some T2 diabetics require medication from the start others can live meds free for many years by diet and exercise alone.

Yep that's the size of it Sid, its for life as we stand today. One can tinker all one likes but, not much beats excercise and sensible long term diet in terms of control imo. Regular excercise may not be an option for some poor soules but, its my mantra. Whilst I take drugs daily, Met and Glic, I dont go a bundle on them :? Nothing does more for my count than excercise and a normal sensible diet.

 

[Grazer]

+1 me

 

[robertconroy]

OK I AM a certified nutritionist specializing in obesity, type 2 diabetes, and metabolic syndrome in the U.S. What about a vegan diet for diabete?. Vegan means no animal products so it has nothing to do with if it has a face or not, no milk, cheese, eggs, marshmallows, jello, honey, etc. Nothing that comes from an animal. So no animal products might spur you to more carbohydrates when meat and dairy have almost no glycemic effect. But, meat has saturated fat and used to be thought contributed to developing insulin resistance. Latest studies show only carbohydrate cause insulin resistance - through too much insulin. A vegan diet could be opposite of an Atkins low carb. high meat, high fat diet or not, depending on what carbs. you eat.

Yes, a vegan diet can cause serious nutritional deficiencies - protein, omega-3, taurine, B12, B6, Folic acid, enzymes, hydrocloric acid, zink, etc. Where did this vagan diet idea come from? Not India, because less than 30% of Indians are even vegetarian, most of these still eat ghee, eggs, dairy, etc. Budha and Krishna ate meat... 75% of vegetarians go back to meat because of health problems. Many vegans do develop heart disease and cancer, possibly from too low of LDL cholesterol or too much carbohydrates.

Take a potato for example. Most consumed food in the US is now the French fry. Non-organic potatoes are the most contaminated food, with some containing most of the 52 pesticides tested for. As a high glycemic diabetagenic food, it's one of the worst as a 1/2 pound baked potato can raise your blood sugar as high as eating a full pound of white table sugar! Wheat flour is higher glycemic than table sugar by weight. Wheat flour GI=72 / Sucrose table sugar GI=59. So give up all grains and see what happens. You might have just found the cure for type 2. So don't give up meat, give up carbs... According to the data used in "The China Study" book, eating carbohydrates are twice as high correlation to cancer, than meat. Cookies and crackers are in the top 5 cancer producing foods.

 

[izzzi]

Hi, MsVegan

Yes I am on this Vegan Diet + no sugar,no fat or oils.
I am not a vegan. (necessary vitamins etc; should come from natural foods)

Six months down the line I have shown great improvement.

I get great support from my family which is a great help.

However many people have carried out opposite diets and also have shown great improvement.

This forum has given me the strength to use control which I believe is the magic formula.

There is to many people filled with there own important ideas turned into long threads and books with unproven Facts.

Best of luck, and whatever you do give it a chance, I did.

Roy.

 

[phoenix]

Rob Conroy,
I think that you may be underestimating the numbers of vegans and lacto vegetarians in India. There are states where the vast majority of people eat in this way. I spent a number of years teaching large numbers of children whose parents came from the Gujarat. These children were almost all lacto vegetarians, those who were Jains were vegan.
As I said earlier in the thread, I'm an omnivore but there are people who use a vegan/vegetarian diet successfully with diabetes You might like to read some of the work on using high fibre/high carbohydrate diets for people with diabetes in South India ( Viswanathan, M. and his colleagues.)
There is a chapter here:
Ramachandran, A.; Viswanathan, M. (1997). "Dietary management of diabetes mellitus in India and South Asia". In DeFronzo, Ralph A.; Alberti, K. G. M. M.; Zimmet, Paul. International textbook of diabetes mellitus. London: J. Wiley. pp. 773–7.
and several older papers here:
http://mdrf-eprints.in/view/subjects/dia800.html

 

[AliC]

Those making statements about it's with you for life, it can't be reversed or beaten etc., I'm interested in the science behind these statements. I'm not trying to say you're wrong or give anyone false hope, and I readily admit I'm in denial myself to some extent (that sounds like a contradiction in terms ;-) ), but it's something I want to understand.

If an organ in the body is impaired, and can't regenerate the cells it needs to be back to where it was, fair enough, but there's other mechanisms (not including those that cause type 1) that cause diabetes from my limited understanding are there not?

It would be good to see some sort of factual or scientific basis for these statements, as I would imagine, especially for newly diagnosed, that they're pretty hard-hitting. How about some links to literature or some mention of commonly understood knowledge related to it. Basically, what is it that happens that is so final and irreversible. Hearing this sort of thing sure as hell takes the wind out of my sails, but I want to educate myself too.

It's absolutely clear that this disease is nowhere near fully understood, and like a lot of things in medicine, a generalisation for everyone cannot be 100% efficient or accurate for an individual when it's clear the triggers and severity of symptoms are different. I'm sure plenty of scientific breakthroughs, medicinal or not, in the past can be attributed to an initial misunderstanding. Why are some people talking about reversal, yet others saying this isn't possible?

 

[KennyS]

Those making statements about it's with you for life, it can't be reversed or beaten etc., I'm interested in the science behind these statements. I'm not trying to say you're wrong or give anyone false hope, and I readily admit I'm in denial myself to some extent (that sounds like a contradiction in terms ;-) ), but it's something I want to understand.

Alic

I will start by saying... Never say never. You are correct, their are always breakthroughs that can correct that which was previously thought to be uncorrectable...... However.......

I came away from my diagnosis with a lot of fear and confusion. I have read a lot and learned a lot since then. I read the 'Cure your Diabetes Today' books. I have learned that most of us have the ability to mitigate future trauma to our body's brought to us by the imbalance of our endocrine system which caused damage to our muscle and bone cells and/or our pancreas beta cells. So the thought put forward that diabetes is 100% progressive, in my opinion is bunk. I would say that some people who have been diagnosed very early and have impaired insulin resistance perhaps have an excellent chance, particularly if they are overweight, of reversing that resistance. That said, I have read a basket full of books and websites claiming reversal of this condition. They, true enough, talk about patients that have, through various diets and exercise brought their BG levels to 'normal' and kept them their, in some cases for years BUT the one thing that none of them claim (that I have read) is that their patients underwent a Glucose Tolerance Test and passed it. Without that gold standard stress test, they cannot, IMHO, claim that they have reversed anything. If I can't go out and have a large milk shake, fries and a burger without my levels rising beyond normal ranges.... the best I am doing is controlling the condition. It is therefore exceedingly difficult to prove a negative (Prove that it can't be cured)... Therefore I must deduce, at least for now, that I will carry this condition for the rest of my life and plan to live my life accordingly.

Having said that, I believe that the focus of the medical community is in the wrong place. They focus on the obesity when 20% of new T2's are normal. The focus on fat people when for some strange reason, 20 years after a third world population is exposed to a standard western diet, they, having shown no sign of heart disease, high blood pressure, obesity or diabetes previously, are added to the world wide statistics of this epidemic.... I think its best to focus of the food... sugar, grains and starches..... strangely enough, if you focus on those foods, your weigh drops naturally even as you raise your fat intake to compensate for some of those lost carb calories, your cravings and 'need' to eat go away, your blood pressure moves toward normal, your cholesterol moves toward normal...

Kenny :thumbup:

 

[hallii]

I am a vegetarian, I am also a T2 diabetic, I have been a vegetarian for 40 years and a T2 for 10 years. I have survived until age 70 on a vegetarian diet and my last HbA1c was 5.1% so I must be doing something right.

There is no evidence that a vegetarian diet is any better for T2 s than any other diet, and a vegetarian diet certainly didn't stop
me getting T2.

Vegan diets are very restrictive and are not for me, a vegetarian diet is a well balanced one and with modern meat substitutes, pulses, vegetable oils and the odd vitamin pill vegetarians get all the nourishment they need.

It would be easy for me to cut out eggs, butter and cheese, (I don't consume milk in any form) and call myself Vegan but I do not see
the point. The production of dairy foods and eggs need not result in pain and cruelty to any animal, slaughter does. But that's a moral standpoint, so if you wanted to go vegetarian on moral grounds that's fine, just don't expect the diet to make much difference
to T2 diabetes.

H

 

[KennyS]

There is no evidence that a vegetarian diet is any better for T2 s than any other diet, and a vegetarian diet certainly didn't stop
me getting T2.

Hallii.... just a question of interest. During the course of your 40 years as a vegetarian, were grains, sugars and root vegetables a significant part of your diet?

Kenny :wave:

 

[hallii]

There is no evidence that a vegetarian diet is any better for T2 s than any other diet, and a vegetarian diet certainly didn't stop
me getting T2.

Hallii.... just a question of interest. During the course of your 40 years as a vegetarian, were grains, sugars and root vegetables a significant part of your diet?

Kenny :wave:

You are quite right Kenny, and you highlight what I was trying to say, that is, a vegetarian diet per se does not help a diabetic
using diet as a means of control.

I cannot help feeling however (and yes, I am biased) that a vegerarian low carb diet is a bit more healthy than a high meat low carb diet. But then I am biased!

I ate a diet that was high in all the wrong things, after all chips, bread, sugar and so on are all animal free, I ate porridge for breakfast for more years than I can remember, fat lot of good it did me!

H

 

[KennyS]

I ate a diet that was high in all the wrong things, after all chips, bread, sugar and so on are all animal free, I ate porridge for breakfast for more years than I can remember, fat lot of good it did me!

H

Hallii,
If you don't mind a couple of more questions. I have never known a vegetarian dedicated to the lifestyle for such a long time and the addition of the diabetes intrigues me.
During the course of your 'diet', if I can call it that, were you overweight for any significant period of time? Since you have been diagnosed with diabetes and found grains and sugars to be a problem, have you eliminated them from your diet in an effort to control your BG and if you have, how are you able to make up the calories from the eliminated foods so that you don't loose weight or to much weight?

Thanks
Kenny :thumbup:

 

[hallii]

H[/quote]

Hallii,
If you don't mind a couple of more questions. I have never known a vegetarian dedicated to the lifestyle for such a long time and the addition of the diabetes intrigues me.
During the course of your 'diet', if I can call it that, were you overweight for any significant period of time? Since you have been diagnosed with diabetes and found grains and sugars to be a problem, have you eliminated them from your diet in an effort to control your BG and if you have, how are you able to make up the calories from the eliminated foods so that you don't loose weight or to much weight?

Thanks
Kenny :thumbup:[/quote]

Yes, I was overweight at times, although I did lose all the weight by calorie restricted dieting several times over the years, that was some battle, still going on to some extent although now I am not so concerned about losing weight (although I have managed to lose 4 kg over the year) I am now about 100kg so maybe 15kg still to lose.

I eat very little grains, sugars etc. however my diet inludes many calorific foods such as oils and fats, vegetarian protein, nuts, home made bread (soy flour, wheat gluten and some wholewheat flour) three small new potatoes at meals, and so on. I think my diet is varied enough and it has done the job for me as regards BGs. I find I can now eat an apple, pear or small orange without any spiking.

Cheese and eggs are an important part of my diet and cheese is quite high calorie.

I just worked out that if I lose 4kg a year I will be at my ideal weight by the time I die :lol:

H

My current favourite meal is Three potatoes, broccilli, carrots, vegetarian mozzerella "burger" followed by Aldi peaches in own juice and double cream. That gives me 7.4 after two hours so I am happy with that. H

 

[KennyS]

I eat very little grains, sugars etc. however my diet inludes many calorific foods such as oils and fats, vegetarian protein, nuts, home made bread (soy flour, wheat gluten and some wholewheat flour) three small new potatoes at meals, and so on. I think my diet is varied enough and it has done the job for me as regards BGs. I find I can now eat an apple, pear or small orange without any spiking.

Cheese and eggs are an important part of my diet and cheese is quite high calorie.

I guess the reason that I asked is that the wholewheat, potatoes, apples, pears and oranges are of the table for me. So without those I felt that maintaining calories would be difficult..... Also... guess I am ignorant to being a vegetarian as I would have figured that cheese and eggs are just about in the same league as steak and chicken....

Kenny

 

[hanadr]

It's extremely difficult to low carb on a vegan diet and low carb is what I think works best for BG control
Hana
Ps I think it's pretty difficult to be a healthy vegan too.