Mike d
Expert
I have your corner on that one ... hard to argue with facts
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Reversing Type 2 diabetes
- Thread starter SueMG
- Start Date
I have your corner on that one ... hard to argue with facts
DavidGrahamJones
Well-Known Member
As a long term watcher of my diet (as opposed to dieter) and someone who weighs every day, I can say with a great deal of authority that our scales don't tell the full story. LOL
Seriously though, there are two things that affect the number we see on the scales, fluid and "food in transit". Nothing seems to be more disappointing than looking at the elevated numbers and thinking "How did that happen?".
I've got weight loss/gain charts coming out of my ears and I can see that my weight can change by pounds over night and in either direction. Fluid is probably the worst thing and probably the cause of most short term gains and losses. Slow intestinal transit times can be a problem but the effect seems to be more accumulative.
With a plant based diet you'd be surprised how much fluid is in plants.
A few surprise there. Mind you if you're rushing off to the loo every 5 minutes, there's the reason.
I weigh every day because if I did it once a week I could logically say I'd gained or lost, but when it happens overnight you know it's water.
JohnEGreen
Master
Wish there was an icon for sort of agree or probably agree but not sure.
B
badcat
Guest
Oh joy something else we can do ****** all about
Having a quick shufty on google, the message from some scientists appears to be diabetisc are more prone to cancer but they dont even understand the direction of causation,if any. They also dont mention the data bias introduced by the much higher medical monitoring of diabetics compared to non diabetics
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Oldvatr
Expert
Here is the summary from the WHO database which is more far reaching than Australia.
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/worldwide-cancer#heading-Two
Obesity and poor nutrition are identified as risk factors. Yes T2D may be at increased risk by being obese, so losing weight is to be encouraged, but there does not seem to be a systemic link between diabetes and cancer per se.
Here is a similar summary for diabetes from the WHO database analysis, Again cancer is not listed as being a major cause of mortality for diabetics, so again I see no systemic trend showing in this data,
Yes there are diabetics who infortunately suffer cancer, but it is not showing as an inherent cause.
CherryAA
Well-Known Member
I think people like Dr Fung, are seeing starting to see numerous cancers as another element of the risks created by metabolic disorders - i.e. it is the insulin resistance that gives rise to a swathe problems including cancer. I also saw a presentation somewhere opining that there is no such thing as heart disease absent diabetes - only undisclosed diabetes in patients who suffer heart attacks - i.e. they have the heart attack before their re-existing metabolic disorder actually manifests as increase glucose in the blood .
discussion here on the subject which might be relevant
http://www.fastingtalk.com/14-dr-jason-fung-on-the-latest-developments-with-fasting-and-cancer/
On the positive side, that should also mean that if you are diabetic and you do manage to get your blood sugar down by natural means you are also improving all the other health risks as well
discussion here on the subject which might be relevant
http://www.fastingtalk.com/14-dr-jason-fung-on-the-latest-developments-with-fasting-and-cancer/
On the positive side, that should also mean that if you are diabetic and you do manage to get your blood sugar down by natural means you are also improving all the other health risks as well
pleinster
Well-Known Member
There would appear to be a degree of overstatement of fact here...research is research and theory is theory and samples are samples. No-one, to my admittedly limited knowledge, has proved any direct link between cancer and Type 2 diabetes in an otherwise healthy person controlling their blood sugar well through effective dieting and a healthy lifestyle (who is not overweight...which I would remind people is NOT the cause of every diabetics condition).
Anyone coming to this site..this thread... for the first time must think they are doomed regardless...which is obviously not true. Can I just throw a spanner into the works here..? People who have been diabetic for decades without a trace of cancer or heart disease, etc., etc...
I am not saying it's not worth discussing the views but let's not start writing ourselves of due to the latest PhD student's published "findings" or the latest amazing revelation by medical geniuses who spend all their time producing books for us all to buy. We all know that obesity and poor nutrition, smoking and other unhealthy habits are clear factors in shortening lives in lots of different ways...only a very stupid person would not know that by now...and controls in survey groups appear from time not to isolate adequately as they seek to "prove" a point. Let's see a survey on "healthy" diabetics who don't have weight issues, don't smoke and don't ignore their own well being and see what kind of stats that produces.
Anyone coming to this site..this thread... for the first time must think they are doomed regardless...which is obviously not true. Can I just throw a spanner into the works here..? People who have been diabetic for decades without a trace of cancer or heart disease, etc., etc...
I am not saying it's not worth discussing the views but let's not start writing ourselves of due to the latest PhD student's published "findings" or the latest amazing revelation by medical geniuses who spend all their time producing books for us all to buy. We all know that obesity and poor nutrition, smoking and other unhealthy habits are clear factors in shortening lives in lots of different ways...only a very stupid person would not know that by now...and controls in survey groups appear from time not to isolate adequately as they seek to "prove" a point. Let's see a survey on "healthy" diabetics who don't have weight issues, don't smoke and don't ignore their own well being and see what kind of stats that produces.
And for those of us who have tried everything they can think of and still have weight issues? Should they just give up? Keep doing what they have been doing? Or try something new?
I think we are all doomed regardless, diabetic or not, we all die of something, even the slim ones.
Art Of Flowers
Well-Known Member
The article states that insulin may promote the growth of cancer cells. This maybe the cause of higher rates of cancer amongst diabetics as many inject insulin or take drugs such as gliclazide which causes the pancreas to produce more insulin.
CherryAA
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make here?
You specifically singled out "Type 2 diabetes in an otherwise healthy person controlling their blood sugar well through effective dieting and a healthy lifestyle (who is not overweight...which I would remind people is NOT the cause of every diabetics condition)." as Not being connected to increased rates of cancer through any research.
Isn't that the whole point ? the vast majority of those who join here will not qualify - because if they were an otherwise healthy person who is not obese and who is in control of their blood sugars - then why would they join in the first place?
It seems that there are many, many people who have been diabetic for decades without a trace of cancer or heart disease, and who are robustly healthy apart from the need to be careful as regards their food choices and may need insulin injections because of diabetes either as T1 or T2 diabetics. Isn't that the message this site gives ? i.e. contrary to what you many have been told on diagnosis, there is hope.
Isn't the message to everyone who joins that actually whatever point you are starting it, whatever your level of control or your degree of obesity , when you start contributing to your own health by embracing a different lifestyle including helping to manage your own blood sugars ( for which we can contribute a lot of experiences ) and exercising then the chances are you are contributing to improving your own health and longevity for all manner of reasons of which diabetes is just one, whether that is in addition to your medication , or instead of your medication depending on your personal circumstances.
At the same time you have joined a site where people are prepared to look at research done and pronouncement made by various "authorities" on the subject and debate whether whatever is being said might have merit just like this thread.
Bluetit1802
Legend
What that article doesn't say about the T2s is how much the medication treatment may be to blame.
I imagine this is an important factor and needs to be factored in.
I imagine this is an important factor and needs to be factored in.
Oldvatr
Expert
The cause of higher rates of cancer in diabetics? Who says? In fact WHO data does not support this statement, so can we please stop scaremongering until there is definitive evidence. Diabetics run a similar risk to any other in the general population.
We do have medications that may be linked to causing cancer, as well as CVD, AKI, and all manner of associated health issues, but not the common cold (link so far not established) I have greater risk to life when I walk round the corner to go to the shop. Food poisoning, air pollution, my fellow humans, blue ice from the heavens, a lightning bolt from the blue.
It makes sense to reduce risk where we can but in the long run the end result will greet us one day. To label D as being a major carcinogen where there is no evidence is unhelpful. We have enough morbidity risks to deal with as it is.
So far I have 6 close members of my family who have had the C diagnosis before the age of 60. but not one of them was or has since become Diabetic.
A
Avocado Sevenfold
Guest
"One pound? What's that? I s*** a pound!" Peter Kay
A
Avocado Sevenfold
Guest
@zand I had a lovely plant based meal last night (was as whole food as possible with the ingredients I had available) and posted about it on the veggie thread. I ate twice as much butternut squash as I had previously tested and there was no added oil this time. I don't know if this proves anything about processed oils or whether I am more insulin sensitive these days, but it was dead tasty and it didn't bother my bg much at all so I am happy.
I wouldn't have far to swing to go WFPB if I tried it, but you are going from a starting point of LCHF omnivore so it may take longer to adapt. You may need more patience with your endeavours
I wouldn't have far to swing to go WFPB if I tried it, but you are going from a starting point of LCHF omnivore so it may take longer to adapt. You may need more patience with your endeavours
Art Of Flowers
Well-Known Member
The article quoted was from a study of almost 1 million patents in Australia where they found a higher rate of cancer with those who had type 1 and type 2 diabetes. So, there is some link between cancer and diabetes. Another article which links high insulin with cancer ... http://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2016/6/The-Insulin-Cancer-Connection/Page-01
Insulin in itself does not seem to be a problem, only excessively high levels of insulin in the body.
Oldvatr
Expert
Simple conclusion that can be drawn is that - inT2D we have elevated insulin which increases IR, and thus also have high blood glucose at the same time. Now glucose is a known nutrient for cancer cells, which do not need insulin to feed unlike the other cells. Thus cancer cells have an abundant feast to gorge on, so no wonder cancerous tissue grows. I suggest it is the presence of glucose that is the effect, not the insulin.
Also T2D with metabolic syndrome have a tendancy to be overweight / obese, and obesity is a known factor in cancer studies. Again, being diabetic could be coincidental, and not in itself causal. Weight loss and bgl control is what we should be trying to acheive anyway.
I am familiar with some of the referenced papers in that second article, and many of them do not actually identify diabetes within the samples being trialled. In particlular the European EPIC study certainly does not seperate diabetics vs non diabetics. The nearest we get to something interesting is the EPIC Oxford cohort that distinguished between vegetarians vs omnivores, but that only measured changes in cholesterol. The EPIC Norfollk study did note cancer correlations, but only with obesity and intake of sugary sweetened beverages. Again, not relevant to this discussion. Some of the other reference papers seem to be a bit obscure too, and may support evidence of DNA damage, but so far there seems to be no agreement that this is the root cause of cancer, i,e the risk increaser.
I have not read all the 50 odd reference papers, so there may be some that do directly relate to making a connection between diabetes and cancer risk, but as I pointed out the WHO (world wide study) does not show any correlation of significance. The WHO database provides raw data for many, many study groups from governments, economists, industrialists and world health organisations who devote a lot of effort trying to correlate and crosslink data in every which way to crystal ball gaze into the future trends. So it is a good source of info It dwarfs EPIC, and has the right vitals captured.
Edit to add : This is what the ADA symposium in 2010 said
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2890380/
Generally INCONCLUSIVE.
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AliB
Well-Known Member
Zand, you might find this interesting.....
I know my body is VERY acidic - and is now beginning to shed the acidity. I get about the lymph being clogged and how fruits, which are astringent, could help to cleanse it.
Interestingly, although I plan to go all fruit for a while (not permanently, just for detox purposes), I am still eating some veg and nuts (and indulged in some chocolate and peanuts this evening...), whilst my evening meal of sweet potato and veg, chia pudding with nuts and the peanuts and chocolate whopped my BG right up even with insulin (and it is very reluctant to come back down), my blood sugar after eating fruit during the day (cherries, banana, apple and pomegranate) ended up elevated no higher than my FBG this morning - with no insulin at all.....
The only time I need no insulin is when I am water-fasting. Then, over a period of days my BG will lower to normal. I think from tomorrow I will go out all fruit and see what happens. I am probably best not checking my BG levels during the day as it may panic me initially, but as today's experience showed me, any elevation there may have been was levelled back out eventually. To see that it had lowered without insulin was quite amazing.
There is bound to be some fluctuation as my body cleans itself out. Detox symptoms too, like the loose bowels I am currently experiencing. I think you and I are probably in a similar place, having tried many different ways to deal with this over the years. I have just felt as though, despite all my efforts, my body has been getting more and more toxic and acidic - which is almost certainly driving the insulin resistance to a great degree. As Mark James Gordon mentions in the video, fat is an acid buffer and I have long believed that, too.
LCHF just made my acidic system worse. It may work for some, but it didn't work for me - and it's taken me 9 years to realise it.......
I know my body is VERY acidic - and is now beginning to shed the acidity. I get about the lymph being clogged and how fruits, which are astringent, could help to cleanse it.
Interestingly, although I plan to go all fruit for a while (not permanently, just for detox purposes), I am still eating some veg and nuts (and indulged in some chocolate and peanuts this evening...), whilst my evening meal of sweet potato and veg, chia pudding with nuts and the peanuts and chocolate whopped my BG right up even with insulin (and it is very reluctant to come back down), my blood sugar after eating fruit during the day (cherries, banana, apple and pomegranate) ended up elevated no higher than my FBG this morning - with no insulin at all.....
The only time I need no insulin is when I am water-fasting. Then, over a period of days my BG will lower to normal. I think from tomorrow I will go out all fruit and see what happens. I am probably best not checking my BG levels during the day as it may panic me initially, but as today's experience showed me, any elevation there may have been was levelled back out eventually. To see that it had lowered without insulin was quite amazing.
There is bound to be some fluctuation as my body cleans itself out. Detox symptoms too, like the loose bowels I am currently experiencing. I think you and I are probably in a similar place, having tried many different ways to deal with this over the years. I have just felt as though, despite all my efforts, my body has been getting more and more toxic and acidic - which is almost certainly driving the insulin resistance to a great degree. As Mark James Gordon mentions in the video, fat is an acid buffer and I have long believed that, too.
LCHF just made my acidic system worse. It may work for some, but it didn't work for me - and it's taken me 9 years to realise it.......
pleinster
Well-Known Member
If you think I was having a go at overweight people you have completely misread my words. I was simply reacting to comments that make it sound like all diabetics are going to die of cancer. As for your comment about we are doomed anyway...we are not all doomed to die from diabetes let alone cancer. I do actually know that we are all going to die one day because I am not 3 years old. My post is not about being slim or about being obese...but I think most people would accept that being obese is slightly more dangerous than not being obese. Please do not think that I am dismissing people who are overweight despite great efforts...I am not even saying anything about those who are overweight and just accept it. My comment is NOT about weight! It is about exaggerated statements from the latest "evidence" about what is going to kill us all. I have nothing but sympathy for people with weight issues..any issues actually...please do not try to paint me as something I am not.
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