Should we (humans) be eating Carbohydrates ?

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pollensa

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It's a question I've often wondered about.

I'm no expert but from an evolutionary point of view, it's only been very recently that we've had carbs in our diets. I don't think our bodies actually need them - could it just be that some people's bodies can deal with them and some can't ?

Could do with some clarity on this from someone who has studied it in some detail.......just to put it out of my head
Not a Doctor just commenting on what is common sense, if sugar is a problem and diabetes is a dietary problem, at the end of the day, it does not seem good common sense to eat carbs, and if one has to eat some depending on their diet, simply ensure you don't eat potatoes, rice, pasta or bread...substitute these for much more fascinating, foods and menus that are even better, and healthier.

Mallorca
 

Grateful

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@donnellysdogs makes a good point. We invented agriculture about 10,000 years ago and this is the advent of "processed" foods: grains, turned into flour for bread or fermented for beer. In parallel, the highly cultivated fruits we eat now bear little resemblance to their wild forebears, and are much more abundantly available. Also, many carb-rich root vegetables did not enter our diet until the advent of agriculture. These developments had everything to do with the change from hunter-gatherer to a settled lifestyle.

Ten-thousand years is the blink of an eyelid in evolutionary terms. So to me, it makes sense that humans (or at least, some people among the population of humans) cannot tolerate the currently "normal" levels of carbs because our bodies have not sufficiently evolved to cope with the change in diet. The current food mix is the result of our own ingenuity and high intelligence, which may have run ahead of the evolutionary adaptation of our bodies.

One problem with this hypothesis is that only *some* of us seem to have a serious intolerance for carbs; indeed we are a minority of the population, albeit a rather large one. What do the "non-diabetic" people have, that we Type 2s don't?

I believe all of this makes intuitive sense, but it does not seem to be "established scientific fact." Still very interesting though.
 

donnellysdogs

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Except birds and rodents.

Yes but birds dont pack in plastic and gel them together to make suet easts etc... look at wildlife experts now asking himans not to feed swans bread...... as for rats-part of earths creatures and you dont normally see a starving rat because of humans binning so much excess!! And needlessly...
 

tim2000s

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Humans in our present form, i.e. Homo Sapiens, have existed for circa 270,000 years. We started eating wild grains roughly 22,000 years ago, and started farming roughly 10,000 years ago. In Homo Sapiens period of existence that's hardly just a day. More like a month. Genus Homo beings have existed for millions of years, however I'm not sure what you can and can't state about their diets, etc....
 
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first14808

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I blame the French. Not just because it's a British thing to do, but because a lot of this is their fault. More specifically, two French chaps, Napoleon, and Jules Delessert. One got a bit uppity, so we kinda acquired French colonies and blockaded France. Which lead to French pastry & sweet makers being deprived of their sugar, and encouraged Delessert to develop sugar refining from beet.

That 'breakthrough' made it easier for Europeans to get their sugar fix, but may also have contributed to French aristocrats losing more than their teeth. Sugar was still expensive, and farmers switching to beet production would have contributed to the food crises that lead to the French Revolution.

But it's only the last couple of hundred years where Europe's had cheap access to refined sugar. With some breaks in our sugar fix, ie wartime rationing. So only a few generations where we could start trying to evolve any tolerance to the white stuff.

Prior to that, there probably should have been some warnings, ie during the 17th/18th century, sugar was a luxury and the wealthy could demonstrate their wealth by hosting sugar parties.. Which lead to health problems, but also helped develop the denture industry. So high carb stuff would've been restricted, which includes access to things like the humble spud. First coming to Europe in the 16th century, but didn't really take off as a food staple until much later.

So for modern times, I wonder if WW2 rationing and it's end boosted sugar consumption. We'd just got introduced to mass availabilty sweet treats, then those treats were taken away, so maybe we overcompensated when they became freely available again.
 

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Your question: "How did the ancient Americans (indigenous if you want) get to the Americas?"

It is thought that human migrated out of Africa, gradually spread across Russia then walked across a land-bridge to Alaska which existed temporarily when sea levels fell. This is thought to have happened about 14,000 years ago (although estimates vary and some people believe it is a lot longer ago than that).

Thanks for that, as a history A level student, many years ago, in fact I am a part of history according to my grandkids and my much younger work colleagues.
I was aware of that theory and I do believe that it is many years before history tells us that it happened.
One question that crops up is, do indigenous Americans have similar DNA as us Europeans which does have Neanderthal genome?
Interesting!
 

Lamont D

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Humans in our present form, i.e. Homo Sapiens, have existed for circa 270,000 years. We started eating wild grains roughly 22,000 years ago, and started farming roughly 10,000 years ago. In Homo Sapiens period of existence that's hardly just a day. More like a month. Genus Homo beings have existed for millions of years, however I'm not sure what you can and can't state about their diets, etc....

There was a discovery in South Africa recently that takes that back a few more years than that.
I do believe that they ate whatever was available, regardless of how healthy they believed it was.
There was a recent television programme about how in the far east they have insect farms to produce protein which is edible for human consumption. I do believe that certain insects have been on the menu for eons.
Maybe all our ancestors bred insects, as we keep bees for honey!
 
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Guzzler

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Archeoanthropology can teach us an enormous amount about our ancient ancestors and new technology means that research moves on apace. Having said that, some proponents of the Paleo diet are certainly unaware that theirs is a modern version not a true version of what our ancestors ate.
Modern man is a blip on the timescale of hominid species evolution and it seems to me that it is roughly only the last five centuries that have seen such a change in diet that imo has outrun our capacity to compensate for in evolutionary terms.
 
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Dark Horse

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Thanks for that, as a history A level student, many years ago, in fact I am a part of history according to my grandkids and my much younger work colleagues.
I was aware of that theory and I do believe that it is many years before history tells us that it happened.
One question that crops up is, do indigenous Americans have similar DNA as us Europeans which does have Neanderthal genome?
Interesting!
Native American populations have a greater percentage of Neanderthal DNA than East Asian populations which, in turn, have more than Europeans. Africans mostly have none.

This article talks about the hypothesis that a gene which increases the risk of type 2 diabetes may have come from Neanderthals originally:- https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/140204_diabetes
 

NoCrbs4Me

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Native American populations have a greater percentage of Neanderthal DNA than East Asian populations which, in turn, have more than Europeans. Africans mostly have none.

This article talks about the hypothesis that a gene which increases the risk of type 2 diabetes may have come from Neanderthals originally:- https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/140204_diabetes
Very interesting. I found another article on this:
https://dna-explained.com/2013/12/26/native-americans-neanderthal-and-denisova-admixture/

Specifically it says that although both Europeans and native Americans have Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA, the Americans got gene variants that increases the risk of type 2 diabetes from archaic humans that the Europeans didn't.

This likely explains why 90% of the indigenous people where I live are predicted to get type diabetes in their lifetime compared to 50% for everyone else. However, I doubt many of pre-contact people here, who ate mostly animals (especially bison), got type 2 diabetes, but that's just a hunch.
 

Dark Horse

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Very interesting. I found another article on this:
https://dna-explained.com/2013/12/26/native-americans-neanderthal-and-denisova-admixture/

Specifically it says that although both Europeans and native Americans have Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA, the Americans got gene variants that increases the risk of type 2 diabetes from archaic humans that the Europeans didn't.

This likely explains why 90% of the indigenous people where I live are predicted to get type diabetes in their lifetime compared to 50% for everyone else. However, I doubt many of pre-contact people here, who ate mostly animals (especially bison), got type 2 diabetes, but that's just a hunch.
Yes, interesting.

Perhaps you're familiar with the 'Pima Indians' of Arizona who are highly studied with respect to genes/environment/obesity/diabetes as they have the highest prevalence of diabetes in the world. They have been compared to the 'Pima Indians' of Mexico who share a very similar gene pool but have much lower rates of diabetes. Research published in the journal, 'Diabetes Care' (link below) found that the Pima Indians in Mexico eat a low fat (around 25% calories from fat), high fibre (>50g/day) diet but have much higher physical activity levels than their counterparts in Arizona. (Previous studies had shown the Pimas in Arizona to have a higher fat, lower fibre diet).

Although it might be that the pre-contact people had a high meat (and therefore low carb) diet, this research suggests that it is possible to reduce the risk of onset of type 2 diabetes whilst following a low fat diet by changing the environment in other ways such as other dietary factors and exercise).
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1866
 

NoCrbs4Me

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Yes, interesting.

Perhaps you're familiar with the 'Pima Indians' of Arizona who are highly studied with respect to genes/environment/obesity/diabetes as they have the highest prevalence of diabetes in the world. They have been compared to the 'Pima Indians' of Mexico who share a very similar gene pool but have much lower rates of diabetes. Research published in the journal, 'Diabetes Care' (link below) found that the Pima Indians in Mexico eat a low fat (around 25% calories from fat), high fibre (>50g/day) diet but have much higher physical activity levels than their counterparts in Arizona. (Previous studies had shown the Pimas in Arizona to have a higher fat, lower fibre diet).

Although it might be that the pre-contact people had a high meat (and therefore low carb) diet, this research suggests that it is possible to reduce the risk of onset of type 2 diabetes whilst following a low fat diet by changing the environment in other ways such as other dietary factors and exercise).
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1866
I think most people could have predicted that Pimas on a diet of western food (i.e. mostly highly processed, mostly refined carbs, refined veg oil, and lots of sugar) would be less healthy than Pimas eating their traditional diet (mostly maize, beans, squash, with some meat). However, I suspect that, prior to contact with Europeans, they were not as healthy as their hunter-gatherer contemporaries. I doubt the fibre has anything to do with their state of health - the Inuit didn't eat any fibre and were very healthy on their traditional diet of almost all meat.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...ker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/

One of the reasons I am convinced that the human diet should not include carbs is our teeth. The effect of carbs on our teeth is quite profound (i.e. they are destroyed - unless you brush and floss diligently, which humans didn't for most of our existence) and I think it clearly shows that carbs are not a significant part of our natural diet. These hunter-gatherers added a of starch to their diet with terrible results:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140114112713.htm
 

Dark Horse

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I think most people could have predicted that Pimas on a diet of western food (i.e. mostly highly processed, mostly refined carbs, refined veg oil, and lots of sugar) would be less healthy than Pimas eating their traditional diet (mostly maize, beans, squash, with some meat). However, I suspect that, prior to contact with Europeans, they were not as healthy as their hunter-gatherer contemporaries. I doubt the fibre has anything to do with their state of health - the Inuit didn't eat any fibre and were very healthy on their traditional diet of almost all meat.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...ker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/

One of the reasons I am convinced that the human diet should not include carbs is our teeth. The effect of carbs on our teeth is quite profound (i.e. they are destroyed - unless you brush and floss diligently, which humans didn't for most of our existence) and I think it clearly shows that carbs are not a significant part of our natural diet. These hunter-gatherers added a of starch to their diet with terrible results:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140114112713.htm
High levels of dietary fibre can put a brake on how much food is consumed and can therefore reduce the risk of obesity and therefore type 2 diabetes. Another way of reducing risk of obesity is to live in a cold climate where there is increased need to use food to supply heat. Different ways to achieve similar outcomes.

Yes, dietary starch can be bad news for dental health. On the other hand, the !Kung who are modern-day hunter-gatherers have virtually no tooth decay on a diet which is 67% plant. The type of carbohydrate is probably important.

Humans are one of the few animals that can't synthesize vitamin C - this is thought to indicate that our ancestral diet included a constant supply of fruit so loss of the ability to synthesize it was not selected against. Our dentition is not typical of a carnivorous heritage and our guts are not adapted to eating exclusively wild animals which tend to be low in fat. (Eating modern farm animals which have been selected for higher fat content is a different matter.)
You might find this paper interesting - it talks about hunter-gatherer diets:- http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/3/665.full

Edited to correct typo by adding missing word, 'not'
 
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NoCrbs4Me

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Humans are one of the few animals that can't synthesize vitamin C - this is thought to indicate that our ancestral diet included a constant supply of fruit so loss of the ability to synthesize it was selected against.
Well, I haven't eat any fruit or veg for more than 2 years and I don't have scurvy or any other health issues (other than some peripheral neuropathy that is slowly improving). A constant supply of meat is just as good as fruit and veg for preventing health issues related to vitamin c deficiency. The idea that humans need a dietary source of vitamin C is interesting, but meat will supply all the vitamin c a human needs, as long as they are not consuming lots of refined carbs.

The idea that humans are not adapted to eating exclusively wild animals is rather a strange idea, given that many did just that, and sounds like vegan propaganda. The paper you quote seems also to be rather biased and a lot of it doesn't make sense to me. It's odd that the person that wrote this is from "Division of Insect Biology", yet doesn't mention that many hunter-gatherers ate lots of insects. I think it's also odd that her conclusion was that we should eat more fruit and vegetables and not more meat. After reading the commentary I would have concluded people wanting to eat in a healthy manner should strive to eat less refined carbs/sugar and less processed food. I confess I don't understand her arguments against the idea that humans survived off mostly meat prior to the invention of agriculture. The people around where I live for sure survived on a close to all-eat diet before Europeans arrived. In fact, the early Europeans had to adopt the local diet or they died. Modern people who eat an all animal derived diet (as I do) do fine even when the source of meat is domestic animals. I suspect that my teeth and digestive system are adapted to eating meat, based solely on fact that I eat meat and digest it without any issues. Most wild plants have to be processed in some way before humans can eat them to make them digestible or to remove toxins. Meat doesn't. Humans can't survive long-term eating only fruit. Humans can thrive on a meat only diet.

I'm guessing that the !Kung would eat more meat if they could:

https://peregrinenutrition.com/blogs/peregrinations/what-did-the-bushmen-actually-eat
 

Dark Horse

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Well, I haven't eat any fruit or veg for more than 2 years and I don't have scurvy or any other health issues (other than some peripheral neuropathy that is slowly improving). A constant supply of meat is just as good as fruit and veg for preventing health issues related to vitamin c deficiency. The idea that humans need a dietary source of vitamin C is interesting, but meat will supply all the vitamin c a human needs, as long as they are not consuming lots of refined carbs.

The idea that humans are not adapted to eating exclusively wild animals is rather a strange idea, given that many did just that, and sounds like vegan propaganda. The paper you quote seems also to be rather biased and a lot of it doesn't make sense to me. It's odd that the person that wrote this is from "Division of Insect Biology", yet doesn't mention that many hunter-gatherers ate lots of insects. I think it's also odd that her conclusion was that we should eat more fruit and vegetables and not more meat. After reading the commentary I would have concluded people wanting to eat in a healthy manner should strive to eat less refined carbs/sugar and less processed food. I confess I don't understand her arguments against the idea that humans survived off mostly meat prior to the invention of agriculture. The people around where I live for sure survived on a close to all-eat diet before Europeans arrived. In fact, the early Europeans had to adopt the local diet or they died. Modern people who eat an all animal derived diet (as I do) do fine even when the source of meat is domestic animals. I suspect that my teeth and digestive system are adapted to eating meat, based solely on fact that I eat meat and digest it without any issues. Most wild plants have to be processed in some way before humans can eat them to make them digestible or to remove toxins. Meat doesn't. Humans can't survive long-term eating only fruit. Humans can thrive on a meat only diet.

I'm guessing that the !Kung would eat more meat if they could:

https://peregrinenutrition.com/blogs/peregrinations/what-did-the-bushmen-actually-eat
I don't think that the idea that humans ancestors could not have survived an African wild animal-only diet due to their low far content is vegan propaganda. The author believes that meat-eating was an essential step in human evolution, as stated in this paper, https://nature.berkeley.edu/miltonlab/pdfs/meateating.pdf (which includes references to insects this time) but that the meat-eating supplemented plant-eating rather than replacing it entirely. The author also states that circumpolar peoples can survive on a virtually animal-only diet but this is because the animals they eat have a high fat content. In other words, it is possible for modern humans to live-off a mostly animal diet if those animals have sufficient fat stores. However, our ancestors on the African savannah would not have been able to do this as the local animals did not contain enough fat. Because humans have a slower gut-transit time than carnivores,they cannot eat enough low-fat animal produce in a day to supply all their calories. I don't think the author mentions 'rabbit starvation' but I would have though that phenomenon would be another problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_poisoning

The reason that the author talked about eating more fruit and veg rather than less carbs and processed food is that she was specifically replying to Cordain et al who were advocating increased consumption of animal foods based on hunter-gatherer diets. Whole foods versus processed foods would be a different debate.

You don't have the digestive system typical of a carnivore (large canines, simple gut, fast transit time) but I assume you cope with your diet by use of tools (such as a knife), cooking and by eating domesticated animals that have been bred for a high fat content. (In contrast,the Giant Panda has the digestive system of a carnivore but eats a 100% plant-based diet. The way it copes with this is to spend virtually all day eating and doing not much else.) I suspect the people where you live, if they survived off an all-meat diet, would have included some fatty meat in their diet such as beaver, goose or fish. Unless you live very far north, it is likely that there was also some carbohydrate consumption from gathered berries and leaves.

At the end of the day, there isn't enough planet for all human beings to eat an animal-only diet, even if it was desirable to do so.
 

NoCrbs4Me

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I don't think that the idea that humans ancestors could not have survived an African wild animal-only diet due to their low far content is vegan propaganda. The author believes that meat-eating was an essential step in human evolution, as stated in this paper, https://nature.berkeley.edu/miltonlab/pdfs/meateating.pdf (which includes references to insects this time) but that the meat-eating supplemented plant-eating rather than replacing it entirely. The author also states that circumpolar peoples can survive on a virtually animal-only diet but this is because the animals they eat have a high fat content. In other words, it is possible for modern humans to live-off a mostly animal diet if those animals have sufficient fat stores. However, our ancestors on the African savannah would not have been able to do this as the local animals did not contain enough fat. Because humans have a slower gut-transit time than carnivores,they cannot eat enough low-fat animal produce in a day to supply all their calories. I don't think the author mentions 'rabbit starvation' but I would have though that phenomenon would be another problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_poisoning

The reason that the author talked about eating more fruit and veg rather than less carbs and processed food is that she was specifically replying to Cordain et al who were advocating increased consumption of animal foods based on hunter-gatherer diets. Whole foods versus processed foods would be a different debate.

You don't have the digestive system typical of a carnivore (large canines, simple gut, fast transit time) but I assume you cope with your diet by use of tools (such as a knife), cooking and by eating domesticated animals that have been bred for a high fat content. (In contrast,the Giant Panda has the digestive system of a carnivore but eats a 100% plant-based diet. The way it copes with this is to spend virtually all day eating and doing not much else.) I suspect the people where you live, if they survived off an all-meat diet, would have included some fatty meat in their diet such as beaver, goose or fish. Unless you live very far north, it is likely that there was also some carbohydrate consumption from gathered berries and leaves.

At the end of the day, there isn't enough planet for all human beings to eat an animal-only diet, even if it was desirable to do so.
They people around here ate bison, mostly. They did this with just stone-age tools. The bison only had sufficient fat for human consumption for only a short time of the year, specifically females late in the summer. They would hunt during this time and preserve enough to last them through the year, supplemented by occasional hunting. They ate a few berries during the short time they were available. but it wasn't a significant part of their diet. They did that for at least 5 millenium. I can assure you that their digestive system and teeth, as well as mine, are well suited to eat a virtually all meat diet. Humans are omnivores, so can eat both plants and animals. Humans invented tools for processing meat and controlled fire for cooking meat long before modern humans evolved, so cut up and cooked meat is what we've been eating since we came into existence - so eating raw meat with or bare hands and teeth is not really applicable to us in discussing our diet. It's pretty easy to get all the nutrition we need fro eating animals only. It's very difficult to get all the nutrition we need eating only plants. Our ancestors ate plants to prevent starvation and ate as much meat as their environment allowed. I'm really not buying that animals on the savanna did not have enough fat for humans to survive on. I don't think there is good evidence that meat eating supplemented plant food - it's the other way around.
 

first14808

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I think that's the reverse situation. The planet is big, a lot of it undeveloped, and we're ingeneous. So we have a choice of eating free-range beef, or intensively reared beef from feed lots. Same with most livestock, even fish, ie wild salmon vs salmon from a fish farm. Then there's the potential to synthesise meat. For veg, there's probably greater constraints on viable land to grow food crops. Especially if we burger about and incentivise crops destined for biofuel instead of food.

But intensive farming of crops, meat or veg share some common problems, ie risk of monocultures and disease. Plus some side issues like overproduction damaging crop land, or running out of fertiliser.. Which then exacerbates issues of soil depletion & eventual infertile/unproductive land.

Or, that's something that can be managed, ie as long as land grows something, goats will eat it, and we eat the goats. Much the same with sheep farming on land that's unsuitable for modern crop growing.

As for the past, how we lived is something that fascinates me, mainly due to having done the hunter/gatherer thing myself. Even with modern tools like a shotgun or rifle, hunting trips weren't always successful. But consumed energy. That's not an issue for most of us seeing as we can simply order missing calories online. Our ancestors would have had to be a lot more conscious of that deficit, or starve. There's been some neat experimental archaeology though testing techniques like lithic mulching that suggest we developed some form of agriculture very early in our history.
 

Living-by-the-beach

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They people around here ate bison, mostly. They did this with just stone-age tools. The bison only had sufficient fat for human consumption for only a short time of the year, specifically females late in the summer. They would hunt during this time and preserve enough to last them through the year, supplemented by occasional hunting. They ate a few berries during the short time they were available. but it wasn't a significant part of their diet. They did that for at least 5 millenium. I can assure you that their digestive system and teeth, as well as mine, are well suited to eat a virtually all meat diet. Humans are omnivores, so can eat both plants and animals. Humans invented tools for processing meat and controlled fire for cooking meat long before modern humans evolved, so cut up and cooked meat is what we've been eating since we came into existence - so eating raw meat with or bare hands and teeth is not really applicable to us in discussing our diet. It's pretty easy to get all the nutrition we need fro eating animals only. It's very difficult to get all the nutrition we need eating only plants. Our ancestors ate plants to prevent starvation and ate as much meat as their environment allowed. I'm really not buying that animals on the savanna did not have enough fat for humans to survive on. I don't think there is good evidence that meat eating supplemented plant food - it's the other way around.

@NoCrbs4Me

Funnily enough I was discussing the teeth of Homo Sapiens this morning with my favorite Pediatrician Tess. We've got incisors and grinding teeth for cutting and chewing meat. It was only in the last 150 years that Kelloggs made cereal for breakfast that got a large amount of the worlds population starving with Carbohydrate withdrawal symptoms (i.e. hunger) by including cereals in our diet. We didn't need molars for Rice Krispies either !
 

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If you look at the enzymes produced by the human physiology there is one called sucrase which catalyses the splitting of sucrose into glucose and fructose. Amylase is produced to catalyse the breakdown of starch into glucose. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to suggest that humans evolved to utilise carbohydrates. According to Wikipedia sucrase production increases in lactation, pregnancy and, more relevantly, diabetes.

With regards to the brain, this requires a BM of at least 3.5 to maintain functionality, it can operate using ketone bodies for a short while. Even if you are in a ketogenic state your BM will be maintained at a minimum level that ensures the brain is kept active, achieved by glucogenesis by the liver in response to glucogon from the pancreas.