Something MUST be done!!!!
- Thread starter desidiabulum
- Start Date
Just a quick note to let you know that my earlier attempt to refocus the thread, which was then blocked, has now been unblocked and merged into the main thread (it was sent May 22nd 5.13pm). Xyzzy and others have made very helpful and constructive responses. Can we try to keep focussed on getting a position statement together? (perhaps, as suggested, by email with Benedict coordinating?). Any thoughts from our media-savvy friends in particular would be very helpful.
In reply to all those suggesting that this will get nowhere - this may well be true, but that's no reason not to try. The stakes are too high not to try, at least. Start the ball rolling and who knows where it may end up.
In reply to all those suggesting that this will get nowhere - this may well be true, but that's no reason not to try. The stakes are too high not to try, at least. Start the ball rolling and who knows where it may end up.
No rush, Grazer -- I know you must be a busy sheep. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do -- just trying to give the odd nudge here and there. Think of me as a distant sheepdog....
No, I don't think anyone has forgoten, its ust difficult when forums are locked and dicussions derailed.
I am still convinced that bringing in the est strip issue especially with he involvement of a website sponsored by or associated wih a company assoiaed with selling strips and meters will be the kiss of death.
We need o convince people whose main preoccupaion , at present , is saving money. I know all the arrguments abou saving money in the long erm and I totally agree . But I am not one of those we need to convince.
I am still convinced that bringing in the est strip issue especially with he involvement of a website sponsored by or associated wih a company assoiaed with selling strips and meters will be the kiss of death.
We need o convince people whose main preoccupaion , at present , is saving money. I know all the arrguments abou saving money in the long erm and I totally agree . But I am not one of those we need to convince.
Grazer
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Right.
Seems to me that we've done loads of talking now, and that further discussion on the thread won't take anything forward.
As a very brief summary, I think we've said that what we would like is:-
1) A new document a bit like the Daisy one, updated, with more info about carb control, specifioc foods types, testing, etc that can be given to new members.
2) Perhaps a different version of it that can be used as a statement of belief, and given out to other bodies to encourage change to the treatment of diabetics.
3) These documents to be prepared by a cross-representative working party nominated by Benedict and hopefully chaired by him.
4) After compilation, these documents to be aired to discover any major areas of concern.
If we think that is right I'm happy to write to Benedict to see if he'd be happy with this, and to hand things over to him to make the next steps.
Seems to me that we've done loads of talking now, and that further discussion on the thread won't take anything forward.
As a very brief summary, I think we've said that what we would like is:-
1) A new document a bit like the Daisy one, updated, with more info about carb control, specifioc foods types, testing, etc that can be given to new members.
2) Perhaps a different version of it that can be used as a statement of belief, and given out to other bodies to encourage change to the treatment of diabetics.
3) These documents to be prepared by a cross-representative working party nominated by Benedict and hopefully chaired by him.
4) After compilation, these documents to be aired to discover any major areas of concern.
If we think that is right I'm happy to write to Benedict to see if he'd be happy with this, and to hand things over to him to make the next steps.
Grazer said:
I understood that NO [2] was the priority here. At least I understood that to be what the original post was all about. Now the focus seems to have shifted to replacing Daisy's post.. Hmmmm
Grazer
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Unbeliever said:
No change in focus intended! Swap them round if you like. Just that the original poster's message spoke about something that could be given to Gps .... and every newly diagnosed diabetic. Which is Daisy's post. Not trying to massage things!
IanD
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I'll repost my revised "Sensible eating" document here. I shall give a copy, & of my presentation, to the DUK rep on Tuesday.
It formats into an folded A5 leaflet, with my diet plate on the back page.
Draft – Ian Day
May 23, 2012
With the aid of contributors to the
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes forum/
Sensible Eating with T2 Diabetes.
Adapted from the D UK leaflet: “Eating well with T2 Diabetes.”
Direct quotations are in blue.
What is Type 2 diabetes?
Diabetes is a common, life-long condition where the amount of glucose (sugar) in the blood is too high as it cannot be used properly. Glucose comes from the digestion of foods containing carbohydrate and from the liver which makes glucose.
Insulin is vital for life. It is a hormone produced by the pancreas, that helps the glucose to enter the cells where it is used as fuel by the body. Type 2 diabetes develops when the body can still make some insulin, but not enough, or when the insulin that is produced does not work properly (known as insulin resistance).
Poorly controlled diabetes can result in many health problems, including heart disease, stroke, blindness, amputations, & kidney failure & other debilitating conditions. It is important to maintain blood glucose levels as close to normal as possible.
Blood glucose is checked medically by the HbA1c test, which for well controlled diabetes will be 5-6.5% (32-48 mmol/mol.) Non-diabetics will be 4.5 - 6.0 (26 - 42 mmol.) A realistic level to minimise complications will be below 7.8 (60 mmol)
The HbA1c test should be carried out at least every 12 months, & preferably more frequently. It is the primary test used by health professionals to monitor the progress of the disease.
In addition, self testing using a finger-prick device is recommended. This enables the patient to monitor the condition & learn which foods result in high blood glucose. Insulin users & patients on strong medication with readings below 5.0 should eat suitable food at once, as blood glucose below 4.0 is a “hypo” condition which is potentially dangerous. Measurements should be made after overnight fasting & two hours after meals. Other occasions for testing include driving & sport.
Good blood glucose control is important in the management of diabetes. Because of the link between eating carbohydrate and blood glucose levels, we have answered some common questions about carbohydrate on the following pages.
What should I avoid eating to control diabetes?
Many common foods are rich in carbohydrate, and should be restricted, especially if your meter indicates high blood glucose. You do not need carbohydrates for good health, nor for energy or brain function. You should avoid food which combines carbohydrate & fat – chips, burgers, pastries, bread & cheese, etc.
Starchy carbohydrates include foods like bread, pasta, chapatis, potatoes, yam, noodles, rice and cereals. If you wish to eat these foods, choose low -medium glycemic index versions – unrefined, wholemeal, etc.
Sugars include table sugar (eg, caster, white, brown), and can also be found in fruit (fructose), and some dairy foods (lactose). They can often be identified on food labels as those ingredients ending with – ose.
Processed foods often contain hidden carbohydrates & sugars. Breakfast cereals are mainly carbohydrate, including sugars, & despite manufacturers claims are not sustaining, & result in hunger & snacking before the next meal.
What can I eat to control diabetes?
A diet rich in protein foods including associated fats, together with vegetables, can be eaten freely. Added fats are best avoided. Added salt may also cause problems. Cooking & table sauces may be used – but look at the labels for carbohydrates & sugars.
Protein foods include meat, cheese, fish, eggs, nuts, pulse (beans). Have an extra portion of vegetables, rather than carbohydrate. Nuts & vegetables will normally contain enough soluble fibre to avoid constipation, but you may wish to add bran to your diet. Oat bran has a reducing effect on cholesterol levels.
Rather than puddings (sweet course) you should choose unsweetened yogourt, cheese or fruit, or simply tea or coffee. You can make your own sweet puddings such as jellies sweetened with no-added-sugar squash.
There will normally be a rise in blood glucose immediately after a meal, & it is recommended you test after 2 hours. Such readings should be below 7.5.
What can I eat instead of breakfast cereal?
Bacon, egg, saugages, ham, cheese, etc can be eaten. You can include a small piece of toast, or crispbread.
A useful alternative to porridge is to mix ground almonds & other nuts & seeds with milk. Because it is rich in proteins & fats, it is more sustaining than commercial cereals.
What about snacks & packed lunches?
Nuts, cheese & fruit, rather than sandwiches, should be provided.
Flour made from nuts can be used for baking, instead of wheat flour. A cake can be made using ground almonds, soya flour, coconut flour, crushed seeds, etc, mixed in the usual way with baking powder, spices, eggs, oil/margarine. This can be used as bread for sandwiches, or sweetened with non-sugar sweeteners to make cake.
What can I drink?
Avoid soft drinks sweetened with sugar. Normal drinks including diet drinks may be consumed, but diet colas contain caffeine & may cause problems. Alcohol may be consumed within recommended limits.
Don’t use diabetic foods or drinks.
They offer no benefit to people with diabetes. They will still affect your blood glucose levels, contain just as much fat and calories as the ordinary versions, can have a laxative effect and are expensive.
Where can I get further advice & recipes?
A forum run by & for diabetics can be consulted on http://www.diabetes.co.uk/
You will normally get an answer from experienced patients, some of whom have faced similar problems. Such advice should be received with caution, as it may not apply to you & your condition.
You should of course consult your doctor & dietitian, & get the regular health checks, including HbA1c, eye (retina screening), foot & blood tests for cholesterol & kidney & liver function.
Be aware that dietary advice, including leaflets & diabetic cookery books, is likely to be out of date, & a 50% carbohydrate consumption may be recommended, contrary to this latest advice.
It formats into an folded A5 leaflet, with my diet plate on the back page.
Draft – Ian Day
May 23, 2012
With the aid of contributors to the
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes forum/
Sensible Eating with T2 Diabetes.
Adapted from the D UK leaflet: “Eating well with T2 Diabetes.”
Direct quotations are in blue.
What is Type 2 diabetes?
Diabetes is a common, life-long condition where the amount of glucose (sugar) in the blood is too high as it cannot be used properly. Glucose comes from the digestion of foods containing carbohydrate and from the liver which makes glucose.
Insulin is vital for life. It is a hormone produced by the pancreas, that helps the glucose to enter the cells where it is used as fuel by the body. Type 2 diabetes develops when the body can still make some insulin, but not enough, or when the insulin that is produced does not work properly (known as insulin resistance).
Poorly controlled diabetes can result in many health problems, including heart disease, stroke, blindness, amputations, & kidney failure & other debilitating conditions. It is important to maintain blood glucose levels as close to normal as possible.
Blood glucose is checked medically by the HbA1c test, which for well controlled diabetes will be 5-6.5% (32-48 mmol/mol.) Non-diabetics will be 4.5 - 6.0 (26 - 42 mmol.) A realistic level to minimise complications will be below 7.8 (60 mmol)
The HbA1c test should be carried out at least every 12 months, & preferably more frequently. It is the primary test used by health professionals to monitor the progress of the disease.
In addition, self testing using a finger-prick device is recommended. This enables the patient to monitor the condition & learn which foods result in high blood glucose. Insulin users & patients on strong medication with readings below 5.0 should eat suitable food at once, as blood glucose below 4.0 is a “hypo” condition which is potentially dangerous. Measurements should be made after overnight fasting & two hours after meals. Other occasions for testing include driving & sport.
Good blood glucose control is important in the management of diabetes. Because of the link between eating carbohydrate and blood glucose levels, we have answered some common questions about carbohydrate on the following pages.
What should I avoid eating to control diabetes?
Many common foods are rich in carbohydrate, and should be restricted, especially if your meter indicates high blood glucose. You do not need carbohydrates for good health, nor for energy or brain function. You should avoid food which combines carbohydrate & fat – chips, burgers, pastries, bread & cheese, etc.
Starchy carbohydrates include foods like bread, pasta, chapatis, potatoes, yam, noodles, rice and cereals. If you wish to eat these foods, choose low -medium glycemic index versions – unrefined, wholemeal, etc.
Sugars include table sugar (eg, caster, white, brown), and can also be found in fruit (fructose), and some dairy foods (lactose). They can often be identified on food labels as those ingredients ending with – ose.
Processed foods often contain hidden carbohydrates & sugars. Breakfast cereals are mainly carbohydrate, including sugars, & despite manufacturers claims are not sustaining, & result in hunger & snacking before the next meal.
What can I eat to control diabetes?
A diet rich in protein foods including associated fats, together with vegetables, can be eaten freely. Added fats are best avoided. Added salt may also cause problems. Cooking & table sauces may be used – but look at the labels for carbohydrates & sugars.
Protein foods include meat, cheese, fish, eggs, nuts, pulse (beans). Have an extra portion of vegetables, rather than carbohydrate. Nuts & vegetables will normally contain enough soluble fibre to avoid constipation, but you may wish to add bran to your diet. Oat bran has a reducing effect on cholesterol levels.
Rather than puddings (sweet course) you should choose unsweetened yogourt, cheese or fruit, or simply tea or coffee. You can make your own sweet puddings such as jellies sweetened with no-added-sugar squash.
There will normally be a rise in blood glucose immediately after a meal, & it is recommended you test after 2 hours. Such readings should be below 7.5.
What can I eat instead of breakfast cereal?
Bacon, egg, saugages, ham, cheese, etc can be eaten. You can include a small piece of toast, or crispbread.
A useful alternative to porridge is to mix ground almonds & other nuts & seeds with milk. Because it is rich in proteins & fats, it is more sustaining than commercial cereals.
What about snacks & packed lunches?
Nuts, cheese & fruit, rather than sandwiches, should be provided.
Flour made from nuts can be used for baking, instead of wheat flour. A cake can be made using ground almonds, soya flour, coconut flour, crushed seeds, etc, mixed in the usual way with baking powder, spices, eggs, oil/margarine. This can be used as bread for sandwiches, or sweetened with non-sugar sweeteners to make cake.
What can I drink?
Avoid soft drinks sweetened with sugar. Normal drinks including diet drinks may be consumed, but diet colas contain caffeine & may cause problems. Alcohol may be consumed within recommended limits.
Don’t use diabetic foods or drinks.
They offer no benefit to people with diabetes. They will still affect your blood glucose levels, contain just as much fat and calories as the ordinary versions, can have a laxative effect and are expensive.
Where can I get further advice & recipes?
A forum run by & for diabetics can be consulted on http://www.diabetes.co.uk/
You will normally get an answer from experienced patients, some of whom have faced similar problems. Such advice should be received with caution, as it may not apply to you & your condition.
You should of course consult your doctor & dietitian, & get the regular health checks, including HbA1c, eye (retina screening), foot & blood tests for cholesterol & kidney & liver function.
Be aware that dietary advice, including leaflets & diabetic cookery books, is likely to be out of date, & a 50% carbohydrate consumption may be recommended, contrary to this latest advice.
"Grazer wrote:
Right.
Seems to me that we've done loads of talking now, and that further discussion on the thread won't take anything forward.
As a very brief summary, I think we've said that what we would like is:-
1) A new document a bit like the Daisy one, updated, with more info about carb control, specifioc foods types, testing, etc that can be given to new members.
2) Perhaps a different version of it that can be used as a statement of belief, and given out to other bodies to encourage change to the treatment of diabetics.
3) These documents to be prepared by a cross-representative working party nominated by Benedict and hopefully chaired by him.
4) After compilation, these documents to be aired to discover any major areas of concern.
If we think that is right I'm happy to write to Benedict to see if he'd be happy with this, and to hand things over to him to make the next steps."
A sheepdog writes..... Many thanks Grazer for spelling this out. Given the work involved I think it does make sense to use this as an opportunity to update the Daisy document for the forum as well. Grazer could you maybe contact Benedict about next steps? Given the unedifying exchanges currently happening elsewhere on this forum, it would be very good if we could use this to help our acknowledged experts to focus on what they do best, and for which they have rightly earned our respect and gratitude.
Right.
Seems to me that we've done loads of talking now, and that further discussion on the thread won't take anything forward.
As a very brief summary, I think we've said that what we would like is:-
1) A new document a bit like the Daisy one, updated, with more info about carb control, specifioc foods types, testing, etc that can be given to new members.
2) Perhaps a different version of it that can be used as a statement of belief, and given out to other bodies to encourage change to the treatment of diabetics.
3) These documents to be prepared by a cross-representative working party nominated by Benedict and hopefully chaired by him.
4) After compilation, these documents to be aired to discover any major areas of concern.
If we think that is right I'm happy to write to Benedict to see if he'd be happy with this, and to hand things over to him to make the next steps."
A sheepdog writes..... Many thanks Grazer for spelling this out. Given the work involved I think it does make sense to use this as an opportunity to update the Daisy document for the forum as well. Grazer could you maybe contact Benedict about next steps? Given the unedifying exchanges currently happening elsewhere on this forum, it would be very good if we could use this to help our acknowledged experts to focus on what they do best, and for which they have rightly earned our respect and gratitude.
xyzzy
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desidiabulum said:
Grazer I'd be happy for you to take this forward with Benedict. Can I suggest to admin i.e. Benedict we use this thread or start another one (don't care) to continue getting forum members ideas on stuff and to get some kind of regular updates on progress. Perhaps making the thread sticky so it doesn't keep falling of the active posts would be helpful.
xyzzy
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Ian think the think the doc is an improvement but like others are saying it needs further discussion from the membership. It should be as inclusive as possible or else it will just cause friction.
Ian -- sorry not to have responded to your excellent contribution. No offence intended. I've been assuming that what you are writing has meaningful intent but is aiming for satirical impact, and therefore seems perfectly suited to the specific occasion you are designing it for. But I think the others are right to suggest that you do not tie it directly to the forum, though your contribution to the mission statement is obviously valuable. Xyzzy's comments on the draft were absolutely spot-on, it seemed to me.
I'd always want to suggest -- as far as the mission statement is concerned -- that the DUK instructions may be best undermined by omission of certain of their points and reframing of others, rather than explicitly rejecting or inverting them (otherwise the statement immediately appears hostile and invites rejection -- if one wants to persuade an opponent one usually has to find a way of allowing them to accept one's arguments without losing face or seeming to contradict themselves, and ideally to imply that they reached your conclusion independently themselves). That being said, satirical inversion could be powerful for the particular event that you are describing -- go for it!
I'd always want to suggest -- as far as the mission statement is concerned -- that the DUK instructions may be best undermined by omission of certain of their points and reframing of others, rather than explicitly rejecting or inverting them (otherwise the statement immediately appears hostile and invites rejection -- if one wants to persuade an opponent one usually has to find a way of allowing them to accept one's arguments without losing face or seeming to contradict themselves, and ideally to imply that they reached your conclusion independently themselves). That being said, satirical inversion could be powerful for the particular event that you are describing -- go for it!
phoenix
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I just noticed this morning that the DUK pages on carbohydrates, 10 steps to eating well and also the one on the GI have been revised very recently (May date). The Gi one is improved.
Here:
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-dia ... mic-Index/
The carbohydrate sections and the 10 steps to healthy eating are subtly different to those contained in the leaflet which reflects the earlier advice.
ie Old:
New:
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-dia ... bohydrate/
Old
as above)
New:
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-dia ... ting-well/
They did said that they were going to to review and revise the advice when they produced their position statements on carbohydrates and on low carb diets.
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/About_us/Our ... -diabetes/
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/About_us/Our ... -diabetes/
Here:
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-dia ... mic-Index/
The carbohydrate sections and the 10 steps to healthy eating are subtly different to those contained in the leaflet which reflects the earlier advice.
ie Old:
New:
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-dia ... bohydrate/
Old
as above)New:
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-dia ... ting-well/
They did said that they were going to to review and revise the advice when they produced their position statements on carbohydrates and on low carb diets.
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/About_us/Our ... -diabetes/
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/About_us/Our ... -diabetes/
Thanks , as ever Phoenix. I looked at this just a short ime ago and wondered if hey were acually going to update it.
Grazer said:
Huh! Don't ry to pull the wool over my eyes young ram! We old bats may not be able to see very well but we more than compensate with our other senses! I know what you and the rest of the flock are up to. :lol:
IanD
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xyzzy said:
I expect a lot of further discussion - but I am seeing a DUK rep on Tuesday at the Hounslow meeting. We have to start somewhere, & with any document, it is best for someone to put forward a draft for discussion. Friction is not intended, but wedo need to get the low/reduced/controlled carb approach across. DUK were in the process of ruining my life, when I came across this forum.
