Something MUST be done!!!!

[xyzzy]

Eat to your meter is probably the strongest and most sensible argument you can put across, start to mention LCHF or any other diet that goes against the current thinking then the door will be slammed in your face, as xyzzy says earlier we all have different ways in which we achieve good blood glucose control with diabetes and no one method suits all. The emphasis along with 'Eat to your Meter' should be on carb control without stipulating a particular level, only then will you see People/Politicians/HCP's sit up and ponder about the current recommendations.

Couple of things Nigel.

I am really a cynic at heart so yes I agree with you that presenting a raw LCHF might not be the most sensible approach but presenting an approach that saves the government money is attractive and would pretty easily get support. To me that is simply the difference between the actual content of the position statement and how that statement is marketed to the various organisations who would need to hear about it.

Nigel I understand your reluctance to actually come out with say a specific grams / day and respect your view. All I will say is to get a position statement all of us are likely to need to compromise to achieve it and if we are serious then the reality will be that although we may all agree with the fundamental "eat to your meter" mantra no one will end up with a statement where the "how to eat to your meter" contains every ones entire personal preferences. We really do need to move on from the past and think about the millions of diabetics out there who would benefit from our combined wisdom.

I think that's the power of writing a position statement in plain English is that maybe it allows us to achieve that compromise by writing out those personal preferences as options within the "how to bit". For example I see no problem in mentioning portion control, carb counting and grams / day, gi / gl as options to present the newly diagnosed with. That to me is why the "patient led" approach to care is all part of the same "eat to your meter" message.

I do agree the wording of those options needs to be carefully thought through so as not to scare off the establishment.

Deep down though the cynic in me says that just as important as the eat to the meter message is the way its marketed and branded. Dillinger alluded to that in his post last night by mentioning digital tv etc. If we are serious about all this it involves both getting the message content right but selling that message is just as important. It's a fine aim for us to get a message but pointless if no one listens to it.

 

[xyzzy]

While I understand xyzzy's implied point - that everyone concerned needs some financial incentive , including the sponsors of this forum , I can only see financial DISincentives for the most influential bodies -and I think they will think so too.

The process of handing over control of diabetes care to GP's has been going on for some years now. Running alongside has been
the phasing out of self testing supplies for T2s and even restrictions on strips for T1s. When i was diagnosed 5 years ago meters and strips were issued as a mater of course to everyone.

To me that has happened because those "out there" who don't want T2's to test for what ever reason have just been more successful in marketing the "No" view than those who market the "Yes" view. You just have to work harder and find the right message. A message to GP's that says "this saves you money" will win hands down.

DUK will certainly have to follow where the NHS leads so it is the government we have to persuade. I think the OP had in mind some short, sharp , CHEAP, headline-grabbing "fix" Or so I understood it. I think this is the only realistic path to follow at presen.t.

Yes it may be the only realistic short term plan. So in my multi level view you would still put together an agreed position statement. In a worse case it never goes anywhere because no one can agree it. If it gets agreed then as a minimum the forum gets an agreed position statement. Next we would sell it to DCUK either sucessfully or not.

One step at a time with distinct goals to aim for but you do that within an overall strategic "change the world" plan. You don't have to flesh out the tactics of the full plan but you should recognise this is really what it's all about. Why place unnecessary limits on your ambitions? Most organisations have a long term strategic plan that they work towards.

Not everyone has computer access or wants to take an active part in their own healthcare or is even capable of so doing. Not everyone finds their way here.

Yes which is why it needs to be a plan larger than just a new position statement of the forum but that is just an aspect of how the statement gets distributed.

No doubt we are seen as dissidents which in fact , is what we are
in a sense.

...but increasingly less so. Most of us would not be dissidents in many European countries or the States. That is partly the message I have personally tried to push on the forum. Also there is change in the UK so for example the nurses at my local hospital which supposedly has the UK's most "advanced" diabetic clinic are being retrained in low carb. The problem is the translation of any new low carb message down to the pratice DSN's. Those practice DSN's are being told by the surgeries to keep costs down so back to my initial point... There is also the new "patient led" guidelines which give us an ideal "in" as all we are saying at that level is the position statement view (whatever is agreed) is presented as an option given to the newly diagnosed just as it is given to a new forum member.

One small step.,,,,,,,

No there I disagree. Its a lot of small co-ordinated steps which is why you need to look at the thing strategically and holistically.

 

[noblehead]

Also there is change in the UK so for example the nurses at my local hospital which supposedly has the UK's most "advanced" diabetic clinic are being retrained in low carb.

That is interesting, do you know exactly what they are being taught and who is teaching them? If the outcome is a positive one and they manage to turn around patients diabetes control then you could use them as an example in any mission statement.

What is the name of this hospital xyzzy?

 

[hanadr]

This is just why i'm chipping away at the problem. I seem to be a person that people talk to. Many times someone tells me they are diabetic. I generally ask them about their control and care and tell them what Ihave found. I've never had one of these people to have what Icall good control, especially if they try to follow what the healthcare pros tell them.
There's one woman I meet every so often, who is a T1 with a pump and doing fairly well. Thing is her husband is always with her and i don't think he likes me, because he questions me in detail about how I eat. Anyway he weigfhs all her food for her, so insists carbs are essential.. I think he uses his controlling behaviour to feel important. Pity; she's a lovely woman.
Hana
Ps I put a notice up in our local Christian cafe and get the occasional pone call asking for help.

 

[Truffle]

I know what you mean Hanadr, I spoke to a lady I know who is a T2 at work about what was available in the canteen to eat. Her complaint was that there was too much mayo and butter in her baguette! I told her the problem was the bread but she insisted that carbs were very neccessary and that she could always take more meds if needed. Nothing I said made any difference - I could see her glazing over - but I'm sure if her doctor told her to low carb she would do. :x

 

[Unbeliever]

I have no problem in being considered a dissiden. if it weren't for dissidents we would all still be living in caves. Unfortunately many, many people are terrified to hink for themselves or o challenge authority.
I never know whether t laugh or cry when Drs and consultants quote DUK at me. I do know that I stop lisening and lose respect fot them. Are they too lazy to research these things for themselves. DUK has become the "readers Digest " of many professionals
invoved in he {mis} treatment of diabetes.

Challenging them is like challenging cancer research or RNIb or even the Rspca . They are seen as the Voice of respective interests.
Any challenge has to be clear and direc I I don't see any problem in agreeing a position staement. there is a broad consensus - it has been arrived at over several months. of discussion.
"Eat to your Meter" would be the ideal clear message of course . Such a pity the "M" word will frighten "them" and would have to be
inroduced in a less direct way.
I think the real problem with the NHS dietary recommendations is that diet and r is not given the same importance. it is almost incidental and only seen as a means of conrolling weight. I am sure there are good historical reasons for this. but they are now out of date.

Perhaps it will not be beyond our witty and innventive members to come up wih a slogan to express this sentiment without mention of the "M" word. leave i for the small print. We already have one experienced pr person volunteering o help.

 

[chocoholicnomore]

Count me in too. I'll give whatever support I can

 

[noblehead]

I think xyzzy local hospital retraining their nurses on low-carb diets could be a benchmark from which to work from, I don't think (or I've never heard of one on the forum) there was a hospital that endorsed low-carbing and the fact that they are training staff in this field is encouraging to the low-carb community, when xzzy gets round to telling us which hospital it is people here can use this when arguing with their own HCP's

 

[xyzzy]

I think xyzzy local hospital retraining their nurses on low-carb diets could be a benchmark from which to work from, I don't think (or I've never heard of one on the forum) there was a hospital that endorsed low-carbing and the fact that they are training staff in this field is encouraging to the low-carb community, when xzzy gets round to telling us which hospital it is people here can use this when arguing with their own HCP's

Nigel, I didn't think we were allowed to discuss specific PCT's on the forum. However I will privately PM you which one it is. After I do so perhaps you would be kind enough to let members know that I have told you which one. Nurses are certainly being made aware of load carb at the clinic in fact one is doing a thesis on low carbing.

 

[noblehead]

Nigel, I didn't think we were allowed to discuss specific PCT's on the forum. However I will privately PM you which one it is. After I do so perhaps you would be kind enough to let members know that I have told you which one. Nurses are certainly being made aware of load carb at the clinic in fact one is doing a thesis on low carbing.

Thanks for that xyzzy! I'll let you tell other members which PCT it is if you don't mind, you could ask Admin for permission to post it on the forum to save a lot of time and hassle.

 

[xyzzy]

Nigel have sent you the info and also sent it to Admin.

Steve

 

[Defren]

I think xyzzy local hospital retraining their nurses on low-carb diets could be a benchmark from which to work from, I don't think (or I've never heard of one on the forum) there was a hospital that endorsed low-carbing and the fact that they are training staff in this field is encouraging to the low-carb community, when xzzy gets round to telling us which hospital it is people here can use this when arguing with their own HCP's

Nigel, I didn't think we were allowed to discuss specific PCT's on the forum. However I will privately PM you which one it is. After I do so perhaps you would be kind enough to let members know that I have told you which one. Nurses are certainly being made aware of load carb at the clinic in fact one is doing a thesis on low carbing.

I am not happy with the idea of naming and shaming individual PCT to be honest. My reasons are very simple. In almost all PCT there will be staff who toe the party line, but there will be others who don't. My own GP as I have posted about here, has been wonderful, as has my DSN. I would hate to see my area's PCT slated as not endorsing a low carb regime, when my own GP infact does. I think we need to make a clear distinction, that not all Doctors and DSN's are the same, just as not all diabetics are the same. I would hate to see my own GP and DSN pushed into a corner and have to toe the party line simply through being 'outed' on an internet forum. That could set us back, rather than push us forward.

Please, no naming of any individual PCT's, this is supposed to be an 'across the board' change, not an individual who's area is best/worst.

 

[noblehead]

Nigel have sent you the info and also sent it to Admin.

Steve

Received thanks!

 

[viviennem]

Alternatively, one of us could just turn up at 3.15 pm at Room 15, Palace of Westminster on 12 June when a Commons Public Accounts Select Committee is discussing 'Management of adult diabetes in the NHS'....

. . . or we could all go on to www.parliament.uk (I think - will check and edit if necessary), find out the members of the Public Accounts Select Committee, and lobby all of them about:

why we feel that stopping meters and strips is an unhelpful thing, that all Type 2s could manage their diabetes better if they were given proper training in using meters, that if Type 1s are limited it could be fatal.

that the present NHS recommended diet has given the wrong emphasis to carbohydrates, and that recommending a carb-based diet to someone who has problems metabolizing carbs is similar to administering slow poison.

that it is more cost-effective to help people manage their diabetes by diet only if possible, than to treat them for blindness, kidney failure and amputations further down the line.


I have a list of about 13 PCTs who are known to be refusing test strips to Type 2s; anyone who wants a copy, or who would like their PCT added to the list, please PM me.

And finally - any legal eagles out there? If a diabetic had had an amputation caused by the NHS giving incorrect dietary advice, could they sue the NHS for GBH?

Please do look at the parliament website - you can contact any Member of either House from there - though many don't reply to questions from non-constituents.

Viv 8)

 

[))Denise((]

Another thing to do would be to contact MP Keith Vaz, who it was mentioned the other day on here that he has Type 2.

I think we have to be careful with naming PCT as mine covers a very wide urban and rural area and was one of the ones mentioned in the test strips restrictions poll. I get test strips prescribed (although not enough for my liking).

 

[hanadr]

I've already written about what Ido informally, but I'm also a member of DUK. I attend meetings and work on plans etc.I'm pretty well known there and everyone knows I control my carbs.If offered sandwiches, Ieat the fillings. Also there are several folks I meet there fairly often. I've watched the health of a couple of them deteriorate, whilst being questioned about the safety of my own diet and being in "rude" health. some people are so wooden headed it'ws impossible to ge through. I've even talked to researchers at DUK events. So far all of them have agreed with me that carbs MUST be controlled. then you get the "Diabetes Educator" who chips in to tell you carbs are essential[and who cannot, of course, prove it!]
This battle will take ages. If we can find a journalist who is interested, we might get somewhere a bit faster, but Gary Taubes is a journalist and even on this forum, I've seen him ridiculed.
Hana

 

[borofergie]

This battle will take ages. If we can find a journalist who is interested, we might get somewhere a bit faster, but Gary Taubes is a journalist and even on this forum, I've seen him ridiculed.
Hana

Yes, most of the people ridiculing haven't bothered to read him, which makes those opinions next to worthless in my opinion.

 

[jopar]

[mod edit: unnecessarily confrontational reply]

 

[Grazer]

[mod edit: reply to a post that has been removed]

 

[hanadr]

jopar
The idea of individualism is actually enshrined in both DUK[ "no decisions about me:without me"] and the NHS.[patient centred care]
Unfortunately it doesn't happen.
Surely if you are on a pump, you must control your carbs and count them.
That's really just what we low carbers do, we control our carb intake until we achieve the blood glucose numbers we have as targets.
For me that's NORMAL blood glucose, around 5 pretty much all the time
For other people it's on the NHS target of HbA1c of <6.5%
The trouble with many healthcare pros is that they only see the NHS targets and only a pharmaceutical means of reaching them.
They seem to have latched on to the "heart healthy diet" falacy to the extent that they will not consider anything else.
The vast majority of diabetics have T2 and for us strict carb control can spare us from multiple toxic drugs. T1s will always need insulin. [remember I'm married to one!}. However Richard Bernstein has shown that his dietary regime ill keep T1s healthy on minimal doses of insulin and at NORMAL levels with very little risk of complications.
what must be done is to open the minds of Healthcare pros, so they can offer individual patients a more comprehensive choice, which includes low carb.
At the moment, what happens too often is in effect, "taking the easy way out"for doctors and apparently patients too. It seems easier to most people, to pop a couple of pills per daythan to contol their diet.
Hana