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Statins?

Hence my sentence ‘if you cannot tolerate them that’s unfortunate’ and ‘all drugs are poisons’. I read the article. Interesting. Could well be glial-cell effect along with all kinds of other mechanisms going on.
The truth is that we never know the full effects of any drug until 30-40 yrs in wide population use. It’s just hypothesis though. So far both the study data and reported S/E data show on balance benefits over risks.
Do you take paracetamol by any chance? That’s a highly dangerous drug that would likely never be licensed today. Take just 10 x 500mg of those in one sitting and you’ll likely never see the light of day again. Non-reversible liver damage. You can buy those OTC. I’m not aware of any current moves to ban paracetamol.
Dosage is a completely separate argument. If a user chooses to take ten paracetamol he/she know the likely outcome. Can you honestly say the same thing about statins? Do you know what the outcome of an overdose of atorvastatin is?
 
What defence? You are relying on inherently flawed data and, I might add, incomplete non biased research.

One quote not verbatim from Kendrick 'Over a period of five years usage just 15 days added to life expectancy' he does not say whether that would be after an MI or before. Let me put that into context, a person takes a pill every day for ten years to gain roughly one month's life? I don't like those numbers especially when long term usage is as yet unknown.

Ancel Keys much?
 
Dosage is a completely separate argument. If a user chooses to take ten paracetamol he/she know the likely outcome. Can you honestly say the same thing about statins? Do you know what the outcome of an overdose of atorvastatin is?

Well that’s just where you’re completely wrong. Do you know how many paracetamol-related deaths through overdose there are every year? Your average person has no idea how lethal they are in overdose which is why deaths occur regularly. Statins have risks in overdose too but they have been well studied and they are minor. Paracetamol over-dose is lethal and non-reversible and you can buy OTC. Do you want to regulate that or is it just statins that you’ve got in your sights for whatever reason now? Or aspirin? That’s lethal if you get a gastric bleed too. Honestly......
 
The argument about every drug having side effects and one having to weigh the benefits against the risks doesn't hold up, imo. Specifically because no one, and I am saying no one, knows the full story on the roles of cholesterol. How and why should you treat for something before you know if there may be a problem in the first place?

It is oft quoted that the 'real' benefit of statins are for those who have already had an MI. But these benefits have been vastly overstated because real world evidence shows the benefit to be miniscule. Skewed data works at first then we as the general population are used to confirm/deny the hypothesis.

Quality of life should never be ignored in any trial whether short/controlled or long term in IRL. I was happy to learn that as a post menopausal female my 'elevated' cholesterol levels are of benefit to me.
 
Well that’s just where you’re completely wrong. Do you know how many paracetamol-related deaths throughthere are every year? Your average person has no idea how lethal they are in overdose which is why deaths occur regularly. Statins have risks in overdose too but they have been well studied and they are minor. Paracetamol over-dose is lethal and non-reversible and you can buy OTC. Do you want to regulate that or is it just statins that you’ve got in your sights for whatever reason now? Or aspirin? That’s lethal if you get a gastric bleed too. Honestly......
You are missing a key point in your argument about paracetamol. The benefits are known, the risks are known. You cannot say that for statins when the long term use IRL are unknown. It is the very foundation of cholesterol knowledge that is as yet not fully understood and yet you advocate mass medication? Honestly....
 
‘Statin-pushers’. Well the main ‘pushers’ are now the regulatory authorities and disease associations, not big Pharma. Thank you for your super balanced argument. You quote one scientists article against 20 yrs of evidence-based research. Super stuff. That said I’m not ignoring everything that’s in yours. There may well be glial-cell activation as a pathway of a statins. That’s just how evidence with drugs (or indeed anything) evolves, through observation and vigorous debate. The problem now is that all the first and second generation statins are generic. No-ones going to do any more large-scale controlled studies in them now. We have to rely on S/E reporting and analysis in the real world. So far, the benefits still outweigh the risks on balance.
Did you miss yesterday's post by another member. This guy is a GP I will listen to. He doesn't have much time for your 'benefits outweighing the risk' line,or '20 yrs of evidence-based research'.
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/statins.128530/page-2#post-1604537
Geoff
ps Your post reads like that of a troll or shill. Perhaps lessen the sarcasm. Not all members have time for a 'super balanced argument'.I'm not the guy who read somewhere that statins are bad for you, and jumped on an anti bandwagon. I've read loads around this topic.
 
Folks, please let's keep this civil.

No need for insults.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion - so long as they realise that everyone else is entitled to one too!
 
All I can say is that I have been on Statins for nearly 14 years and have no ill effect from the drug... If some people cannot tolerate them well then that is fair enough, but for people and there are many many people who can tolerate them then they are beneficial to that person. We are all different and there are many other drugs that can be said "We don't know what the long term damage is, but without the use of these drugs when they are needed, again we do not know what the risks are for not taking them.
 
Ivor Cummins has beeen tweeting with slide pictures from a medical conference in Ireland. One of the speakers was Professor (of Vascular & Endovascular Surgery) Sherif Sultan - one of his slides states categorically: "Statin is contraindicated for any patients over 62, any woman and all children."

Even more glad now that I didn't persist with them beyond the disastrous initial 6 months.

From another slide in the lecture: "One of three women will develop DM (diabetes mellitus) if they use statin; erectile dysfunction was 10 times more in young men (resolved if statins discontinued)".

Many interesting slides posted under the hashtag #fxmedireland:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/fxmedireland?src=hash
 
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A poll on this forum for side effects of statins showed about 2/3 of people stopped taking statins because of adverse effects. See http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/poll-side-effects-from-statins.58409/

If you watch the film Statin Nation you will see that the benefits of status are over stated and the side effects under stated. Many people experience crippling damage to their mental and physical heath as a result of taking statins. The lowering of all cause mortality from taking statins is minimal.
 
All I can say is that I have been on Statins for nearly 14 years and have no ill effect from the drug... If some people cannot tolerate them well then that is fair enough, but for people and there are many many people who can tolerate them then they are beneficial to that person. We are all different and there are many other drugs that can be said "We don't know what the long term damage is, but without the use of these drugs when they are needed, again we do not know what the risks are for not taking them.

To say that because one can tolerate a drug then it must follow that the drug must be beneficial is a giant step. In my opinion the most important aspect to whether a patient takes a drug or not is that of informed consent and as the information or data on statin use and esp long term statin use has been manipulated then informed consent has to be taken out of the equation thus limiting a patient's choices.
 
To say that because one can tolerate a drug then it must follow that the drug must be beneficial is a giant step. In my opinion the most important aspect to whether a patient takes a drug or not is that of informed consent and as the information or data on statin use and esp long term statin use has been manipulated then informed consent has to be taken out of the equation thus limiting a patient's choices.
When I say tolerate I mean if they have no ill effects. How many people are on Statins? and how many have suffered from taking them? How many have not suffered from taking them? Like I said before. Most drugs come with warnings, yet many far outweigh the dangers. Would I have had another Heart Attack without them? I will never know,but so far so good
 
When I say tolerate I mean if they have no ill effects. How many people are on Statins? and how many have suffered from taking them? How many have not suffered from taking them? Like I said before. Most drugs come with warnings, yet many far outweigh the dangers. Would I have had another Heart Attack without them? I will never know,but so far so good
I mentioned up thread (or possibly another thread) that it has been said that fewer than 5% of GPs report side effects to the relevant body. So it is left to anecdotal/observational data to determine what exactly are the numbers re side effects. The same can be said for benefits because unless or until the full role/s of cholesterol are fully understood how can we make informed choices? How can HCPs make informed choices? n=1 data is important only to the particular person involved.

May I ask you if you beleive that some people suffer side effects? And may I ask you what is in the drug that causes those side effects?

I am glad that you have not had a further heart attack and wish you the very best for the future. It is good that you have a measure of comfort from knowing that your statin use has protected you. I really wish I could be of the same opinion but I can't.
 
I tried atuvastin & gained weight in very short time so refuse to take as I'm not very mobile at all, so harder to get weight of, I tried sinsvastin, had terrible leg cramps & came of years ago but now diabetic was put on them again to try, got cholestrol down with help of diet but been on hflc diet & cholestrol gone up, DN said try higher dose 80 but most cant cope with it cos of pain, I tried for 2 weeks & stopped I had terrible pain & cramps in hands toes & fingers & legs. now I take 40 & pain greatly reduced. but as. Said before doctors opinion was that if I don't take I'll have high cholestrol. When my cholestrol went up I was told I must be forgetting to take!! I said I HAVE been taking them but it was obvious he thought id not been doing so. I am confused take or don't. So many for & against. We should have faith in our doctors but I don't know anymore
Maureen, a lot of people on here feel their cholesterol, at any rate triglycerides and HDL, which are now said to be the important ones, have improved since they adopted a lower carb way of eating. Personally, my GP wanted to put me on statins because of slightly high LDL, but instead I have lowered my carb intake in the hopes of also lowering my blood glucose. My last full blood test was in July and my next is scheduled for January, so I can't yet tell you what effect if any my diet may be having on my cholesterol. It is certainly lowering my bg considerably, according to the testing I am doing at home, so I am living in hopes.

I have recently bought a book by the excellent Jenny Ruhl "Diet 101 - the truth about low carb diet". It is aimed principally at people wanting to lose weight, but also at people with diabetes. In case you don't know, JR is herself diabetic, now over 70 and having survived without major complications, which is in itself a testimonil to the value of her advice. She has done an enormous amount of research, and her guidance seems to me sane, kindly and appropriate. She does not give recipes, but you can find them on her site http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/ She tends to come down against statins, but acknowledges they may be helpful in some situations. Frankly, I have a lot more faith in Jenny Ruhl when it comes to diabetes than I have in my GP!
 
@Alexandra100 thank you, I lowered my cholesterol from 8.8 to 3.3 in 3 months, triglycerides from 1.9 to 0.7 in 3 months, but after LCHF diet my cholestral went up to 5.9. Confused, last time was5.4. I have made some changes to my diet, truthfully I hate putting meds into my body & truthfully don't know if statins are goid or bad, so many opinions about them , I'm unsure what to think but since being on gliclazide (which I no longer take) only statins & metformin I have suffered hives, terrible night sweats, hot flushes ( I past menopause years ago) terrible hair loss & memory problems, I know as we get older memory can be problem, but I believe this is all from meds as it started shortly after taking these meds, I have kept my hbc1a at 5.8 or 5.9 the last 3 tests, so I believe my diet has helped but will know more in January when I'm tested first time after stopping gliclazide. I'm interested in the Jenny rhul diet 101 you mentioned, sounds very interesting & possibly I might learn frontages book, I will buy & read, I'm open to try most things if it may help me, but I've never been happy about taking pills, I remember years ago there was an injection for young girls highly recommend, my daughter was of age to make her own chioce & she wanted this injection, I wasn't sure but she wanted & believed it to be good, after the nurse said she had a young daughter but she'd never allow her daughter to have the injection unless it had been on the market for many years as there wasn't enough research, I was shocked to put it mildly, she had just injected my daughter. Since then I've never really had any confidence in any meds. But I take in the hope that they will help me, I'm soon to be a grandmother & want to be alive to enjoy my new grand daughter. Without giving details I to have less faith in my Gp. I've learnt more on this forum & that's what helped me get my diabetes under control. To everyone I thank you I will buy the Jenny Rhul 101 book & certainly read it. Thank you
 
Regarding the research that Prof. Rory Collins keeps hidden, there was some alarming news some time ago.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/558249/statins-expert-heart-drug-rory-collins

Some quotes from that article.

"Head researcher Prof Collins admitted he had not seen the full data on side effects.

In an email to this paper he stated that his team had assessed the effects of statins on heart disease and cancer but not other side effects such as muscle pain."

"Prof Rory Collins, whose research helped rubber stamp statins as safe, said his team will carry out a “challenging” reassessment of the evidence which will include studying all reported side effects.

Although the original research looked at the effect of statins on the heart and considered cancer risks it did not examine other side effects."

" Dr Collins, who championed the controversial drug, said the additional work was needed to convince the public that statins were safe."

The problem I have with this is that if he keeps on saying that statins are safe and yet admits he never tested them for side effects then how sound is the main research which he says he did carry out but won't let anyone see.


I remember one of Michael Moseley's programmes when he interviewed Sir Rory Statin, he was just an arrogant prat I thought. The sort of 'Do as I say but not as I do' type. Didn't take criticism at all.
 
post: 1608971 said:
Just found this talk by Professor Sultan that seems very similar to the one I posted about yesterday. Worth watching!
'
http://www.vascular.ie/news/2017/4/10/prof-sultan-at-cice-congress-brazil-2017#pq=21Rxs5

Sadly, being hearing impaired, I couldn't follow the presentation because of the sound quality. I did manage to pick out a few phrases, though. The main one being that the Doctor had lost funding for research into statins. Independent research scuppered by Big Pharma who kept hidden there own data until patents had lapsed. This says it all, really.
 
I remember one of Michael Moseley's programmes when he interviewed Sir Rory Statin, he was just an arrogant prat I thought. The sort of 'Do as I say but not as I do' type. Didn't take criticism at all.
He is not good at interviews. I have listened to radio programs where he said he had not tested statins for adverse side effects, another where he said that that he did hold pre trial tests and weeded out some people and each time I got the impression that the world would have been a better place if he mentioned all that earlier.

With all those revelations I wonder what evidence N.I.C.E. used to recommend that everyone with a certain risk should be offered statins. Even the positive evidence which we assume exists has not been made available.

I feel happy that I have been there, done that, got the T shirt, and now have the comment "Intolerant of Statins" on my record.
 
Hi,

I remember that on Trust Me I'm a Doctor programme Dr M Moseley found out that he had high cholesterol and as a result of the research he was doing weighed up the pros and cons.... And everyone correct me if I remember this wrong but he opted to take and so start using statins...

I remember from the program that he took the state of his health quute badly as he hadn't been expecting it...
 
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