Success with moderate calorie diet?

[Mbaker]

Your body adjusts calories burned to balance calories consumed (according to Jason Fung's "The Obesity Code") So calorie restriction does not work in the long term.

I believe Jason also said this is due to a slow down in metabolism, meaning low calorie persistent dieting reaches a plateau. And it looks like it is generally accepted that it is vital to construct the 800 calories with the right macro nutrients.

Apologies just seen @Brunneria post with similar detail on the Fung point.

 

[SWUSA_]

What conversion chart are you using to convert from A1c3 numbers to British units?

I lost a lot of weight and am now normal weight but not on restricted calories, i.e. I did not count calories.

I used an app to convert HA1c numbers from USA units to UK units-did I get it wrong? or would you like me to post it?

(I started the new thread yesterday-it is titled: Conversions-USA to UK.)

 

[SWUSA_]

I

Hi @NonStop, depending on variables such as amount of insulin resistance, visceral fat, beta cell loss, liver and pancreas function, it might take a significant time to reverse diabetes using a moderate restriction. Michael Mosley (of Trust Me i'm a Doctor, The 5.2 diet and The Blood Sugar diet) advocates rapid weight loss over circa 8 to 12 weeks, supplemented thereafter with a Mediterranean diet (if it were me I would supplement with LCHF).

Rapid weight loss I would suggest offers advantages as you can see results quickly which can help with motivation. Peers will notice and comment, which enables further encouragements ; in addition other conditions such as high blood pressure, eye, circulatory, fatty liver and or kidney issues can be alleviated.

Lables such as "cured", "reversed", "remission", and "well controlled", are about definition. I am of the opinion that a "reversal" is statistical reduction of key markers (fasting blood glucose, 2 hour response after meals, and either 2 or 3 normal range HbA1c measurements in a row) to within non-diabetic ranges. I think during the lead up to the aforementioned, reductions could be classified as "reversing". I am not sure about "cured" as this is others say is down to OGTT tests or responses after a carby meal.

I would just add the reason I am losing very slowly is that I have gouty arthritis and rapid loss of first 5 pounds caused a small gout flare-when I say small I mean I could still walk but my big toe throbbed for two days and I was unable to wear closed toed shoes. Having had many of these in the past and knowing that high uric acid caused it as well as my kidney damage in the past I chose to choose losing much slower than my first rapid loss of 5 pounds in three weeks. If you have gout take caution!

 

[SWUSA_]

I think it's worth addressing the two points you mentioned.
Even after the Newcastle diet, even if reversal is achieved, some of us want to continue to reduce our BMI to a 'normal' number.
I certainly wanted to, and also found that I felt a lot better, could do a lot more exercise, and my lifestyle greatly improved. So I didn't overeat during that period either.
I also think you are getting a bit fixated on imagining that everyone then seems to continue to low calorie after.
Obviously, having achieved our targets, we eat normally, low carb is for life, low calorie is to achieve a specific target usually.
When that target is achieved, it's time to move onto a maintenance diet.
I do agree I don't 'eat until I'm full' though.
That was a habit that I desperately strove to break, and I saw eating until I was full as the thing that got me where I was, so I now eat enough, and if I'm not 'full', I know it's simply a state of mind,
If I gain weight, I realise I'm overeating, if I lose weight, I realise I need to eat more.

(As to eating 800 calories of carbs, I doubt any meal plan would consist of that, all diet plans are balanced)

I agree with everything except "all diet plans are balanced"-there are some crazy diets to lose weight out there-have you ever heard of the watermelon diet? The banana diet? I could go on but I think you get the idea.

 

[Mbaker]

I

I would just add the reason I am losing very slowly is that I have gouty arthritis and rapid loss of first 5 pounds caused a small gout flare-when I say small I mean I could still walk but my big toe throbbed for two days and I was unable to wear closed toed shoes. Having had many of these in the past and knowing that high uric acid caused it as well as my kidney damage in the past I chose to choose losing much slower than my first rapid loss of 5 pounds in three weeks. If you have gout take caution!

I would imagine loosing quickly follows the 80 / 20 rule. I know in the past crash diets were frowned upon. When I was diagnosed at 134, I would have liked the option of either Newcastle diet or LCHF, (feel I wasted a year via the NHS advice)

 

[douglas99]

I believe Jason also said this is due to a slow down in metabolism, meaning low calorie persistent dieting reaches a plateau. And it looks like it is generally accepted that it is vital to construct the 800 calories with the right macro nutrients.

Apologies just seen @Brunneria post with similar detail on the Fung point.

Sometimes you simply have to draw a line in the sand, and decide whether to accept those that have followed a calorie restricted diet that has worked successfully to reverse type 2 diabetes and had no adverse effects, or to decide to accept Jason Fung's advice that if you ever did try it, it would harm you, and not to attempt it.

I took the view that this forum has a very successful low calorie sub forum, with very well documented low calorie diet successes, and that the Newcastle diet was well reported as extremely successful globally, so I tried low calorie personally before reaching my conclusions.
I now use a low calorie diet as my first choice if I do need to reduce weight down, as I am flexible in my lifestyle choices.

 

[douglas99]

I agree with everything except "all diet plans are balanced"-there are some crazy diets to lose weight out there-have you ever heard of the watermelon diet? The banana diet? I could go on but I think you get the idea.

I was referring to the optifast style shakes used on the Newcastle diet, or similar diet shakes even if supermarket branded.
However, even the oddball diets like the watermelon diet are very short term of a week or two, and I certainly had enough excess on me to survive them at the time I'm sure.
Even scurvy would take several months to develop in normal well fed individuals nowadays, so I wouldn't personally worry if my diet choice became severely restricted for short periods.
There are members on here who fast for several days , we're all more capable than we give ourselves credit for at times.

 

[THEBOT74]

You just need to watch all carbs and eliminate as much as you can. Also do not skip meals as it'll mess up your metabolism.

I personally don't count calories, I just look at how much and what is on my plate. I have seen people on this site say that they've done the Newcastle diet and reversed their Type 2. It doesn't float my boat as I prefer the three meals a day and to eat until I'm satisfied. This would prevent unnecessary snacking on carby snacks.

I am switching to a low-carb/very low carb vegan diet from the New Year, avoiding at all costs the main bad foods for diabetics (potatoes, bread, rice, processed foods, etc - the usual suspects). I believe this switch, which will be permanent, will ensure that I no longer return to diabetic levels once it's been reversed.

 

[Mbaker]

You just need to watch all carbs and eliminate as much as you can. Also do not skip meals as it'll mess up your metabolism.

I personally don't count calories, I just look at how much and what is on my plate. I have seen people on this site say that they've done the Newcastle diet and reversed their Type 2. It doesn't float my boat as I prefer the three meals a day and to eat until I'm satisfied. This would prevent unnecessary snacking on carby snacks.

I am switching to a low-carb/very low carb vegan diet from the New Year, avoiding at all costs the main bad foods for diabetics (potatoes, bread, rice, processed foods, etc - the usual suspects). I believe this switch, which will be permanent, will ensure that I no longer return to diabetic levels once it's been reversed.

LCHF has messed with my head, in a good way, as it is the gift that keeps on giving. I am down to 2 meals a day, by accident, as I am just not hungry in the mornings, with no snacking and have to energy to workout 2 times a day - it is a remarkable lifestyle. It is weird having a meal at around 17.00 and not needing to eat before midday of the next day.

I do also like a lot of the Vegan methodology and hope to go more down this route in time, the problem for me is curried goat and slow cooked oxtail (and fish), but I am likely to go half LCHF / Vegan.

 

[douglas99]

LCHF has messed with my head, in a good way, as it is the gift that keeps on giving. I am down to 2 meals a day, by accident, as I am just not hungry in the mornings, with no snacking and have to energy to workout 2 times a day - it is a remarkable lifestyle. It is weird having a meal at around 17.00 and not needing to eat before midday of the next day.

I do also like a lot of the Vegan methodology and hope to go more down this route in time, the problem for me is curried goat and slow cooked oxtail (and fish), but I am likely to go half LCHF / Vegan.

2 meals a day, mainly vegan, sounds excellent for a low calorie diet.
It seems that is the 'hidden' secret of LCHF, it suppresses appetite for many, and becomes low calorie by default.
(maybe that's why many 'low carbers' post on the low calorie forum, they actually are low calorie?)
Make sure you ramp up the calories if you start to feel tired or lose too much weight though.

 

[SWUSA_]

don't know the ap but doesn't seem to compute with what I think are my meter numbers and my occasional A1c3

But maybe it is the conversion you are using

i.e. sure, post it

Okay, I'll start a new thread and tag you.

 

[SWUSA_]

I was referring to the optifast style shakes used on the Newcastle diet, or similar diet shakes even if supermarket branded.
However, even the oddball diets like the watermelon diet are very short term of a week or two, and I certainly had enough excess on me to survive them at the time I'm sure.
Even scurvy would take several months to develop in normal well fed individuals nowadays, so I wouldn't personally worry if my diet choice became severely restricted for short periods.
There are members on here who fast for several days , we're all more capable than we give ourselves credit for at times.

I like your reply but I have no desire to go on a several day fast for three reasons: 1) It triggers severe gout attack for me-if you had ever had one you would understand this reason-they are disabling and very painful 2) I get grumpy when my blood sugar is low-a very well documented fact in my life and now that I am caring for an extremely challenging (at times) I can not afford to be grumpy. It goes to pieces here very quickly if I let a bad mood show. 3) I am having what I consider to be spectacular success without it.

I do however only eat within a window of about 8am to 4:30pm. I started that restriction about 2 and a half years ago and started taking my evening dose of metformin with the last meal. This change alone brought my fasting blood sugar down by 50 mg/dl. The change was in response to some GI discomfort I was experiencing at the time. I had originally been told to take morning and evening dose of metformin but had not been instructed to take with a meal. They work so much better taken with a meal.

 

[SWUSA_]

I would imagine loosing quickly follows the 80 / 20 rule. I know in the past crash diets were frowned upon. When I was diagnosed at 134, I would have liked the option of either Newcastle diet or LCHF, (feel I wasted a year via the NHS advice)

Do you mean you were diagnosed as having Diabetes with a fasting blood glucose of 134? What is the 80/20 rule?

 

[Resurgam]

I did all sorts of diets, some club ones some from the doctor. All failed to make me lose weight.
When I worked out (decades ago)that I should eat low carb I was pressurised to stop. It is the only way of eating which results in any weight loss, but I have had people shouting, screaming insults and threatening hospitalisation if I persisted.
Since using a meter to check blood glucose levels, all the foods which I know I should not eat if I want to lose weight also produce prolonged elevations in BG levels.
All low calorie diets were totally useless, and I was urged to go lower and lower as each week passed with no weightloss, just increased weariness and brain fog.

 

[douglas99]

I did all sorts of diets, some club ones some from the doctor. All failed to make me lose weight.
When I worked out (decades ago)that I should eat low carb I was pressurised to stop. It is the only way of eating which results in any weight loss, but I have had people shouting, screaming insults and threatening hospitalisation if I persisted.
Since using a meter to check blood glucose levels, all the foods which I know I should not eat if I want to lose weight also produce prolonged elevations in BG levels.
All low calorie diets were totally useless, and I was urged to go lower and lower as each week passed with no weightloss, just increased weariness and brain fog.

I find changing the people, rather than the diet is effective.
Anyone that says 'one size fits all' isn't really worth any note, I have found.

(But I am curious, what insult do you get screamed at you if you don't eat carbs? I can't think of anything that fits as a term of abuse?)

 

[Resurgam]

I find changing the people, rather than the diet is effective.
Anyone that says 'one size fits all' isn't really worth any note, I have found.

(But I am curious, what insult do you get screamed at you if you don't eat carbs? I can't think of anything that fits as a term of abuse?)

It was all because I can't lose weight on a diet which includes all those 'healthy' carbs - but as I actually increase weight on some standard diets I was accused of not following the diet, of cheating, lying, wasting the doctors time, and so on.
If I did stop eating carbs it was all 'see how good the advice is when you follow it' - failure was my fault, success was complying with the beliefs of the medics.

 

[douglas99]

It was all because I can't lose weight on a diet which includes all those 'healthy' carbs - but as I actually increase weight on some standard diets I was accused of not following the diet, of cheating, lying, wasting the doctors time, and so on.
If I did stop eating carbs it was all 'see how good the advice is when you follow it' - failure was my fault, success was complying with the beliefs of the medics.

So a doctor actually screamed abuse at you?
Actually screamed, and was abusive?
I hope you reported them. That would have been my response, and I wouldn't have let it go.
Thankfully all mine have been good, and a 'healthy' diet, including carbs seems to work well for me, and reduced my BG, and drove my diabetes into reversal.
(if the abuse was recent, you may still be able to raise a complaint)

 

[Resurgam]

So a doctor actually screamed abuse at you?
Actually screamed, and was abusive?
I hope you reported them. That would have been my response, and I wouldn't have let it go.

But everyone knows that doing low carb is bad - it killed Dr Atkins, he was overweight and had a heart attack - they know - they are right, people are fat because they are greedy, idle - it is too much to try to fight against what the medical profession and all dieticians think that they know.

 

[douglas99]

But everyone knows that doing low carb is bad - it killed Dr Atkins, he was overweight and had a heart attack - they know - they are right, people are fat because they are greedy, idle - it is too much to try to fight against what the medical profession and all dieticians think that they know.

I think you need to actually meet some NHS professionals, and not believe what you read to be honest.
They are generally excellent.
(I'm guessing it wasn't an abusive NHS professional either?)

 

[Resurgam]

I think you need to actually meet some NHS professionals, and not believe what you read to be honest.
They are generally excellent.
(I'm guessing it wasn't an abusive NHS professional either?)

I have read about doctors who accept low carb is safe and effective - but at my first diabetic advice session I got the 'Eatwell' plate is how to do it, and the 'facts' about Dr Atkins' death - that is from a NHS professional this month.