Supplements

[AndBreathe]

Did you have blood test to look at your B12 levels? If they are low you can get treatment in the form of tablets or injections through your GP. Glad to read that the changes were positive.

Only if levels are not in range, and my experience of various things tells me that in the NHS range is not necessarily optimum.

My recent B12 test was within a month of beginning to supplement, and my OH even closer. Both were “in range” but what really triggered action for us was a comment made by the interpreting Doc, for MrB’s (private) test.

He commented that MrB appears to be in remarkable good health by ”for his age”, then added that whilst in range his B12 was closer to the floor than ideal. He did suggest an eye wateringly expensive test to test for a genetic defect, but we elected to see what a person on the supplement would do.

 

[BigAlan]

IF it was a case of taking just one, I'd suggest testing for B12 & if low making it that one .

I take B12 in sublingual form

As mentioned Metformin AND being 60+ can lower it.

Too low can mean injections, & treatment for life ...so I took it seriously, due diligence & lots of research.

Having watched my mum's decline into dementia, the possible impact of the role B12 might play fully captured my attention.

Up shot was I asked for my B12 to be tested at my HBA1c blood check.

( Not an issue asking & getting it tested, but beware it's not tested unless requested.)

Found mine was at very low end of recommended range 190-900.
Ordered B12, in sublingual form, as it seems in tablet form it can't pass the stomach in any meaningful way.

Next HBA1c it went from 225 - 335...not ideal but an improvement & away from the edge of danger, I felt.

For B12 context & info, B movie below in my signature highlights the various & detrimental ways low B12 impacts people.

The Wikipedia page is a good starting point

As for other vitamins, D3+K2 here as well .
And 2 Brazil nuts for 'brain power' can't prove it's helped, but they taste good and are rather filling, surprisingly.
Google selenium & Brazil nuts


Good luck finding the info you're looking for .

As a by note, Metagormin halves a man's testosterone. It keeps you looking young but at the expense of testosterone, which has so many side effects on its iwn.

 

[HairySmurf]

As a by note, Metagormin halves a man's testosterone. It keeps you looking young but at the expense of testosterone, which has so many side effects on its iwn.

Yup, so it would seem, according to an 80 person study done in China. I don't remember that on the patient information leaflet

To clarify, it halves it compared to patients treated with insulin. Hi blood glucose affects testosterone and while the insulin treatment improved it, the Metformin treatment slightly lowered it.

Effect of Metformin on Testosterone Levels in Male Patients With Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus Treated With Insulin

To explore the chronic effects of metformin on testosterone levels in men with type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM).This is a secondary analysis of a real-world study evaluating the efficacy and safety of premixed insulin treatment in patients with T2DM via ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[LonelyFatGuy]

As a by note, Metagormin halves a man's testosterone. It keeps you looking young but at the expense of testosterone, which has so many side effects on its iwn.

Would love to see your source on that.

Yup, so it would seem, according to an 80 person study done in China. I don't remember that on the patient information leaflet

To clarify, it halves it compared to patients treated with insulin. Hi blood glucose affects testosterone and while the insulin treatment improved it, the Metformin treatment slightly lowered it.

Effect of Metformin on Testosterone Levels in Male Patients With Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus Treated With Insulin

To explore the chronic effects of metformin on testosterone levels in men with type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM).This is a secondary analysis of a real-world study evaluating the efficacy and safety of premixed insulin treatment in patients with T2DM via ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So which is it...? Did it halve it, or did it slightly lower it...? Those are obviously two very different things...

I read the study you posted as best as I could; I see no mention of anything being halved.

 

[HairySmurf]

Would love to see your source on that.



So which is it...? Did it halve it, or did it slightly lower it...? Those are obviously two very different things...

I read the study you posted as best as I could; I see no mention of anything being halved.

The baseline for the study is 80 people with high blood glucose levels. Half were given insulin and half were given Metformin.

After treatment testosterone levels in the insulin group greatly improved, presumably because high blood glucose was causing lowered testosterone levels. In the Metformin group however it went down slightly. The insulin group ended up with double the testosterone levels of the Metformin group.

So, assuming the only effect of the insulin treatment as relates to testosterone was to improve blood glucose levels, and as Metformin has that effect as well, then Metformin reduces testosterone. The halving bit might be questionable as a lot depends on how effective insulin treatment was compared to Metformin at reducing blood glucose. The before and after HbA1C data might be in the study document somewhere.

 

[MissMuffett]

I take vitamins D and B12 as I take Metformin and Omega 3

Me too plus a folate (B9) supplement as my blood tests keep showing I’m deficient. Don’t know if this has anything to do with being T2 and taking Metformin but I had all of the typical symptom, breathlessness and fatigue being the worst. After taking it for 4 days the symptoms went away.

 

[KennyA]

Only 80 in the study, of whom 40 were in the control group. And it's not generalisable, as it looked at T2 diabetics treated with both insulin and metformin.

this study observed testosterone levels in male patients with T2DM who had stable insulin therapy for at least 2 months, and prolonged metformin treatment for another 3 months.

The graphic (Figure 3) in the published research showing testosterone levels does not show a halving of anything and the reported (wide) ranges make me want to have more detail, particularly about outliers.

 

[MissMuffett]

Does anyone take a supplement to help lower or regulate their glucose levels?
If so, do you think they work?
I have read the Berberine can help, but haven’t really found any evidence.

I started taking Berberine as I’d read this lowers BG levels. After 4 days I had the most awful midriff (stomach and liver area) pain. I didn’t acknowledge it was the berberine until I realised that was the only change I’d made. Within a day of stopping taking it the pain went away. So I have nearly a full packet left

 

[KennyA]

The baseline for the study is 80 people with high blood glucose levels. Half were given insulin and half were given Metformin.

After treatment testosterone levels in the insulin group greatly improved, presumably because high blood glucose was causing lowered testosterone levels. In the Metformin group however it went down slightly. The insulin group ended up with double the testosterone levels of the Metformin group.

So, assuming the only effect of the insulin treatment as relates to testosterone was to improve blood glucose levels, and as Metformin has that effect as well, then Metformin reduces testosterone. The halving bit might be questionable as a lot depends on how effective insulin treatment was compared to Metformin at reducing blood glucose. The before and after HbA1C data might be in the study document somewhere.

This is very definitely not what the study did, and those are not the results they got. The title of the study is

Effect of Metformin on Testosterone Levels in Male Patients With Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus Treated With Insulin

All participants were on insulin, and the experimental group on metformin. The study is a retrospective and they have simply selected metformin users as an experimental group. I have some doubts about the rigour of this in research terms, but the authors are clear about what they did:

This is a secondary analysis of a real-world study evaluating the efficacy and safety of premixed insulin treatment in patients with T2DM via 3-month intermittent flash glucose monitoring. Male patients aged 18-60 who were using metformin during the 3-month study period were included as the metformin group.

and here's what they said about their study:

this study observed testosterone levels in male patients with T2DM who had stable insulin therapy for at least 2 months, and prolonged metformin treatment for another 3 months.

I have no idea whether the results actually tell us anything useful, but I can't find anything in the published text that supports what you've said about it.

 

[HairySmurf]

This is very definitely not what the study did, and those are not the results they got. The title of the study is

Effect of Metformin on Testosterone Levels in Male Patients With Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus Treated With Insulin

Apologies, I did not pay enough attention to the graphs and to be honest I didn't due my due diligence before posting. Also, you are entirely correct - all the patients in the study were already on insulin to begin with.

Figure 1-C, bioavailable testosterone control vs baseline is where I thought the 'half' thing came from, but now that you pointed it out I see the graphs are not at all to scale. The difference is nothing close to half.

*edited to add a sentence I meant to include

 

[HSSS]

Only if levels are not in range, and my experience of various things tells me that in the NHS range is not necessarily optimum.

My recent B12 test was within a month of beginning to supplement, and my OH even closer. Both were “in range” but what really triggered action for us was a comment made by the interpreting Doc, for MrB’s (private) test.

He commented that MrB appears to be in remarkable good health by ”for his age”, then added that whilst in range his B12 was closer to the floor than ideal. He did suggest an eye wateringly expensive test to test for a genetic defect, but we elected to see what a person on the supplement would do.

Most authorities on b12 suggest levels should be at the top of range to be optimal and in many places they treat anything under 500 as deficient. The nhs levels are merely survival levels.

Testing b12 once supplements have started simply tests that you have supplements in your system rather than a true reflection of what your body is holding or able to use. It needs 4 months clear of supplements to see what your ”true” levels are.

NICE guidelines are about to be updated and state not to test once supplements are started. Serum b12 measures both active (usable) and inactive b12 and doesn’t actually tell you what’s reaching your cells. Active b12 testing is better (holotranscobalamin) but it’s rarely used in the nhs, although that might start to change with the new guidelines that were due in January and now pushed back to march. Testing of homocysteine and MMA are useful to see if there are effects from low b12 - but aren’t exclusively related to b12 issues. Again not so easy to find on the nhs.