Tannith's views on reversing T2

[Daphne917]

Calorie restriction does not work for me and it doesn't matter how many doctors or professors tell me it will, my body hasn't read the same manual as them. My body does have experience of being insulin resistant and having T2 though, which most of these doctors don't.
I'll listen to my body thanks.

Prof Taylor, World Renowned Diabetologist would beg to differ: he says
"....a series of studies has introduced a paradigm shift in our understanding of the condition. Gradual accumulation of fat in the liver and pancreas leads eventually to beta cell dedifferentiation and loss of specialised function. The consequent hyperglycaemia can be returned to normal by removing the excess fat from liver and pancreas. At present this can be achieved only by substantial weight loss, and a simple practical and efficacious method for this has been developed and applied in a series of studies. For those people who used to have type 2 diabetes, the state of post-diabetes can be long term provided that weight regain is avoided."

Calorie restriction for long-term remission of type 2 diabetes


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › articles › PMC6399621

@Tannith like @zand calorie restriction has not worked for me over the years - in fact I was told by an endocrinologist when I was 22 that I was one of his few patients who could honestly blame their metabolism for their weight and inability to lose it. What did work was starting treatment for an under active Thyroid in 2013 and eating less carbs but even then I only managed to lose approx 2 stone so am still classed as being overweight. However I have managed to keep it off and, after maintaining a normal hba1c for approx 8 years, I am officially in remission. My last hba1c was 36 so not much lower than yours at 39 - apart from the opinion of another forum member why do you think your levels are not good when they are in fact in the normal, not even pre diabetic, range?

 

[Tannith]

Agree, but how much of the aetiology of Type 2 is due to the glucose levels alone, and how much is due to other factors associated with the disease itself. If we can control bgl to give remission levels, but cannot guarantee reversal or cure, then are we actually avoiding the projected outcome. According to the paper from Newcastle ac that I posted Roy Taylor says good BGL control is insufficient to guarantee that there are no complications later. This is what he finds with the bariatric surgery patients, so will probably continue to find with the diet. LCHF may be the same. The Heart paper I posted says the same thing, that tight bgl control does not affect cardiac outcomes but does reduce CVD events in severity at least. Sorry to be a party pooper, but we need to accept that we have not yet reached Nirvana or Shangri La. We have better tools to control bgl levels nowadays, and a cure may be in the ******, but it is still a waiting game.

"According to the paper from Newcastle ac that I posted Roy Taylor says good BGL control is insufficient to guarantee that there are no complications later. This is what he finds with the bariatric surgery patients, so will probably continue to find with the diet." Please would you post that link again. I have looked for it but can't find the one you are referring to here amongst the several others Thank you.

 

[Andy_Warlow]

"According to the paper from Newcastle ac that I posted Roy Taylor says good BGL control is insufficient to guarantee that there are no complications later. This is what he finds with the bariatric surgery patients, so will probably continue to find with the diet." Please would you post that link again. I have looked for it but can't find the one you are referring to here amongst the several others Thank you.

Hi after reading all your posts,

Just relax.

First of all read Dr Jason Fungs book the diabetic code. He explains it all very well. Give some ideas on to Reverse Diabetes and keep it away.

Secondly you have to think of it as a life style.

For me what worked was changing my eating habits, Low carb worked wonders for me. Also exercising more.

The other thing is test yourself 30, 60, 90 mins after a meal and see what spike you blood glucose levels. Then avoid or accept that you will have a spike.

All of us on here will probably never be able to go back to the way we use to eat, but once you get control. You can afford a cheat meal or two now and again.

If you control your blood sugars you'll keep the complications away and possibly repair the damage. DR Jason Fungs has examples of this.

If you want more examples of people reversing their diabetes. Look up a channel on youtube called beat diabetes and watch some on the interviews. Lots of people there have smashed and beat diabetes.

 

[zand]

"According to the paper from Newcastle ac that I posted Roy Taylor says good BGL control is insufficient to guarantee that there are no complications later. This is what he finds with the bariatric surgery patients, so will probably continue to find with the diet." Please would you post that link again. I have looked for it but can't find the one you are referring to here amongst the several others Thank you.

Of course good BG control is insufficient to guarantee complications later! Having high insulin levels is even more damaging to the body than having high BGs. Those of us with massive IR will have had that damage happening for years before our BGs reached diabetic levels.
All any of us can do is our best to limit those complications.

 

[Oldvatr]

"According to the paper from Newcastle ac that I posted Roy Taylor says good BGL control is insufficient to guarantee that there are no complications later. This is what he finds with the bariatric surgery patients, so will probably continue to find with the diet." Please would you post that link again. I have looked for it but can't find the one you are referring to here amongst the several others Thank you.

Post #47

 

[HSSS]

And posts #53 55 and 60 explain why low calorie, bariatric surgery and low carb may not have the same results with regards to complications even with normal bgl. Fundamentally it’s depends on insulin and other metabolic markers too, not just bgl or weight

 

[Oldvatr]

And posts #53 55 and 60 explain why low calorie, bariatric surgery and low carb may not have the same results with regards to complications even with normal bgl. Fundamentally it’s depends on insulin and other metabolic markers too, not just bgl or weight

Quite simply, complications caused by diabetes will take quite some time to develop and be recorded. It is too early to declare that the war is over, and that following Diet XXX will banish forever any chance of getting a complication. Life ain't like that. Roy Taylor can say whatever he likes, He is a voice crying in the wilderness at the moment, and until others provide independent evidence that substantiates his claims, then he is merely postulating. His bandwagon is attractive, and that may be good to follow, or it may be a pied piper clarion call. By all means, use his plan, it's better than doing nothing. But treat what he states with a degree of skepticism until validated by further research. And bear in mind that you can be one of the 60% for whom the diet did not work.

 

[Tannith]

Post #47

Thank you very much Oldvatr

 

[Tannith]

Quite simply, complications caused by diabetes will take quite some time to develop and be recorded. It is too early to declare that the war is over, and that following Diet XXX will banish forever any chance of getting a complication. Life ain't like that. Roy Taylor can say whatever he likes, He is a voice crying in the wilderness at the moment, and until others provide independent evidence that substantiates his claims, then he is merely postulating. His bandwagon is attractive, and that may be good to follow, or it may be a pied piper clarion call. By all means, use his plan, it's better than doing nothing. But treat what he states with a degree of skepticism until validated by further research. And bear in mind that you can be one of the 60% for whom the diet did not work.

"And bear in mind that you can be one of the 60% for whom the diet did not work.[/QUOTE]"
I know that only too well. That's why I think it's so urgent to act straight away. Literally my life might depend on it. That's why I get so many ups and downs of mood when I get test results. Today I'm back in the "Slough of Despond", as the Pilgrim called it, because my FBG was 5.5, and has been around that for several days now. Not because that number is so very terrible in itself, but because it could be an indicator that my diet won't work because I restarted it too late in the course of my T2. Anyhow I have to keep going, as it certainly won't work if I don't stick at it. And it's definitely ,as you say, much better than doing nothing and not even trying.

 

[zand]

The 'too late' is just another guess by Professor Taylor, please don't take everything he hypothesises as fact. There are folk on this forum who have reversed their T2 many years after diagnosis.

 

[Ronancastled]

@Tannith may be chasing a unicorn in regards to a true reversal.
Yes it does happen & social media has made us aware of these n=1s
Here are 2 such examples, I'm sure they are others
https://twitter.com/professionaldog/status/1202161773476012034
https://twitter.com/MacroFour/status/1321846330747092993

The one thing about all these cases is that their insulin resistance seems 100% down to visceral fat with no other underlying component.
Problem is that others see their success & expect it to be the same for them.
Their is a guilt & frustration when it doesn't happen for them.
Prof Taylor peddling the theory that fat alone is the cause & this being picked up by the mainstream media hasn't helped either.

 

[HSSS]

it could be an indicator that my diet won't work because I restarted it too late in the course of my T2.

Or maybe it never would have “worked” (according to your goals) because it was never the problem or the resolution for your body or Prof Taylor’s theory isn’t accurate or doesn’t apply to you and continuing won’t change that. Or you have already made all the recovery that is possible in your circumstances.

At some point, if you don’t get to your goals, you have to face this might be true. How long do you wait though?

 

[Oldvatr]

One thing I am struggling with is this conundrum.
The ND diet is recommended for treating diabetes and is able to claim full remission from the disease after 8 weeks. The Slimfast and Cambridge diet plans do not make any claims for diabetes. The ND diet is an 800 Cal diet using meal replacement shakes and a small amount of real food. The other two are 600 Cal diets also using meal replacement shakes with no real food supplement.

The press, the media, this forum, and other blogs and fora are all trumpeting ND. The other two hardly get any mention at all in these outlets. But The ND used the same Cambridge replacement shakes in their DIRECT and COUNTERBALANCE trials, and their COUNTERPOINT trial used Optifast replacement shakes that are basically the same.

How come there are no success testimonials for the other diet plans? I have seen many state that Vlcal diets do not work for them but rarely mention the diet plan name. The only one I remember seeing mentioned by name is WW and that is a different diet concept.

Is it just down to marketing strategies? Are we seeing the Placebo Effect?

Aha! a clue
The ND research was funded by DUK (the Other one) who are in turn funded by:
TARRRAH!
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/get_involved/corporate/acknowledgements

 

[lucylocket61]

When I first came hear and learned about low carbing I did a lot of different research from several different groups, people and scientific studies and sources before going ahead with it.

I have trouble understanding why professor Taylor is being listened to solely and his theories taken as gospel, and the low carb evidence is ignored.

This is a general comment, not aimed at anyone in particular.

 

[lucylocket61]

@Tannith :

You are clearly very good at having the self discipline to restrict your diet, would you mind sharing what you dislike about the idea doing a low carbohydrate version of your diet please?

 

[Tannith]

Or maybe it never would have “worked” (according to your goals) because it was never the problem or the resolution for your body or Prof Taylor’s theory isn’t accurate or doesn’t apply to you and continuing won’t change that. Or you have already made all the recovery that is possible in your circumstances.

At some point, if you don’t get to your goals, you have to face this might be true. How long do you wait though?

As I said in the post just above, I am only too well aware that it could not work. And although I shall be deeply disappointed if it doesn't, I am prepared for that possibility as I know I have had T2 for at least 4 years. And beyond 4 years the chances of the diet working start to fall. But I should be absolutely gutted if I failed because I stopped too soon, as happened last time. Then it would be entirely my own fault if I got stuck with this horrible disease for life.

 

[zand]

As I said in the post just above, I am only too well aware that it could not work. And although I shall be deeply disappointed if it doesn't, I am prepared for that possibility as I know I have had T2 for at least 4 years. And beyond 4 years the chances of the diet working start to fall. But I should be absolutely gutted if I failed because I stopped too soon, as happened last time. Then it would be entirely my own fault if I got stuck with this horrible disease for life.

No, it won't be your own fault. The reason you will be disappointed is the same reason I was disappointed. Quite simply, Professor Taylor doesn't have all the answers and that diet was never right for either of us. Please, please stop pinning your hopes on the work of one doctor. Look at other doctors' work too, and please stop blaming yourself. The 4 year's limit isn't correct at all, people here have proved that, Professor Taylor got that part wrong.

 

[Mr_Pot]

The 4 year's limit isn't correct at all, people here have proved that, Professor Taylor got that part wrong.

I am not sure he even said that. In his study I believe he selected people who had been diagnosed for less than 4 years? In which case he wouldn't have had any data for more than 4 years. Also it seems a bit arbitrary, is 5 years with an HbA1c of 50 more likely to do more permanent damage than 3 years at an HbA1c of 90?

 

[HSSS]

As I said in the post just above, I am only too well aware that it could not work. And although I shall be deeply disappointed if it doesn't, I am prepared for that possibility as I know I have had T2 for at least 4 years. And beyond 4 years the chances of the diet working start to fall. But I should be absolutely gutted if I failed because I stopped too soon, as happened last time. Then it would be entirely my own fault if I got stuck with this horrible disease for life.

But when will you draw the line? How do you know that will be the reason it failed? Quite simply you don’t.

It might be it never would have because weight was never the cause, loss of weight never the solution, it might be that you have achieved your goal just don’t know it. Even if you had never been diagnosed (ie never had) diabetes this level of 39 is what you would have had at your age anyway. Did you see the links I put up about non diabetics having higher levels as they age as a normal and natural thing not pathological whereas the charts take no account of age.

And it is not your fault and I think this is a deeper problem for you. You didn’t make yourself diabetic and no one can say you haven’t tried to do something about it. Stop beating yourself up.

 

[bulkbiker]

I am not sure he even said that. In his study I believe he selected people who had been diagnosed for less than 4 years?

It was in fact 6 years for DiRECT.

http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/153078/