M
[...] what evidence there is demonstrates that high fat / low fibre diets increase the chances of cardiovascular disease
I think the fact that we don't need carbohydrates refers to its use as a source of glucose as we can synthesize glucose. Dietary fibre may well have different benefits so the logic that we don't need carbohydrates so we don't need fibre doesn't stand up.But if there are no essential dietary carbohydrates.. which is a well accepted scientific truth (not my opinion)... then there surely cannot be any essential dietary fibre. This logical fallacy that we somehow "need" fibre simply cannot be correct.
Edit to add otherwise anyone eating a carnivore diet would be dead plain and simple.
The Guardian has written that low carb and low fibre leads to early deaths,
At last someone who understands the difference between relative risk and abolute risk . It also remains to be seen if they are using RR or HR to express risk. I remember a similar study on a certain statin med that ended up showing a very significant drop in risk (RR) for a CVE event. When this was turned into an absolute risk value by a researcher, it showed that the statin required to be max dose for 3 years to possibly increase life expectancy by 1 day.Afternoon.
Here is the link to the study that is being discussed. The bulk of it is behind a paywall. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31809-9/fulltext
I'm guessing the reason many are having a pop at this is these types of study are relatively common, are routinely reactionary (Fat bad! Carbs good!) and are actually pretty insubstantial when you look at the details.
In terms of 'confirmation bias' what struck me is this from the abstract; they say they wanted "to establish an evidence base for quantitative recommendations for intakes of dietary fibre." That sounds very much to me like they 'know' we should be eating fibre and wanted to find out just how much and lo and behold they discovered that we should be eating fibre at a rate that 90% of the population doesn't. If you 'know' what you want to come out of your study then you are not doing a study you are engaged in marketing.
Their fibre recommendation is very precise which is peculiar to say the least from observational studies; there is a 4 gram leeway; between 25 g and 29 g is the best. How much worse is 24 g than 25 g? Is 35 g really no good as well?
Another thing is the oblique use of numbers versus improvements. Look at this sentence (from the study):
"Observational data suggest a 15–30% decrease in all-cause and cardiovascular related mortality, and incidence of coronary heart disease, stroke incidence and mortality, type 2 diabetes, and colorectal cancer when comparing the highest dietary fibre consumers with the lowest consumers Clinical trials show significantly lower body weight, systolic blood pressure, and total cholesterol when comparing higher with lower intakes of dietary fibre"
15-30% meaning what? Is that absolute or relative? (i.e. the difference between a 4% and a 3% chance of all-cause mortality is 33% relative reduction or the less glamorous 1% absolute). Which is this? If they don't say I'm guessing it's relative. Or are they saying that in the high fibre group 30% of the population avoided all-cause mortality? That they are now immortal? That would be good; but probably not what they mean, so why not detail the average life extension in those lucky 30% - could it be that it's insubstantial? Eat 200 kg of kale a day and live 3 days longer on average? Not so good.
How do those numbers cover those different outcomes is it 15-30% for each or in aggregate; i.e. are they all added up to get to that 15-30% figure or is for each bad outcome?
All in all this is a study looking at observational dietary studies (i.e. asking people often over a very long period what they eat which is famously problematic - what did you eat last year for instance?) and seeing how that correlates with their health.
There's nothing causative about it at all. What is the biological mechanism whereby fibre prevents coronary heart disease and type 2 diabetes? They don't know and/or aren't telling, probably because there is none.
Presumably, they discounted other health impacting habits like smoking? But they don't say that so it's possible that people who eat yams and don't smoke also tend not to do other health impairing things either (drink, drugs, no exercise and so on) and therefore live longer. To put that down to their yam consumption is stretching it a bit isn't it?
As mentioned above though these data specifically excluded people with chronic disease, i.e. diabetes, and so can't be held to be applicable to us as none of the 4,000 or so people who were the subject of these trials were diabetics.
I would say the risk from running high blood sugars which has been proven by clinical trials ( always keep this in mind; it's the basis for all our treatment on the NHS - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/projects/gap/cgi-bin/GetPdf.cgi?id=phd000390 ) and well understood mechanisms of arterial and neurological damage far outweighs the risk from fibre 'deficiency' that might (or might not) arise by avoiding carbohydrates.
In short the confirmation bias on display here is in that study not in the pretty measured response on this forum.
Dillinger
Is this really true. and how does it fit in with your previous postings? carbs kill???? Not what you were saying earlier......Of course carbs/fibre are not essential. You can live without them.
However, there is a mountain of evidence suggesting that you will not live as long as if you do eat them.
>>>>>......<<<<<<<<
To quote myself " You will not live as long as if you do eat them".Is this really true. and how does it fit in with your previous postings? carbs kill???? Not what you were saying earlier......
To quote myself " You will not live as long as if you do eat them".
i.e. you will live longer eating carbs/fibre than if you don't (unless you have no other way of controlling BG)/
I couldn't comment on the book as I haven't read it. However, the sales blurb includes the following "On that diet (primal) we grew tall, strong and disease free". Really!
If the book is as accurate as this statement it is possibly full of (to quote Churchill) terminological inexactitudes.
"
What are the symptoms of too much fiber?
The recommended daily intake of fiber is 25 grams per day for women and 38 grams per day for men. Too much fiber can cause:
bloating
abdominal pain
flatulence
loose stools or diarrhea
constipation
temporary weight gain
actually Prof J Cummings MD who is a co author of the report in the OP does seem to know his onions, He has co written several WHO studies and reports and sits on several of their comittees.
https://www.dundee.ac.uk/medicine/staff/profile/john-cummings.php#tab-Publications
He seems to enjoy gut fermentation and the outcomes of it, so could be said to know his s**t better than I do. His treatise on carbohydrate classification is an interesting read - not all carbs are equal. But it is published in Nature.......erm
https://www.nature.com/articles/1602936
I know I do not eat anywhere near the amount of this latest recommended amount of fibre.
Out of interest I have been googling for symptoms of insufficient fibre.
This seems to be:
constipation (less than 3 bowel movements a week and/or hard stools)
weight gain
always hungry
high cholesterol
constantly nauseous
high blood sugar
tummy ache during digestion (diverticulitis)
I will continue as I am with my low carb eating plan. I have none of those symptoms
My Goto was Omni - all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff there. The Lancet is a good source now since they review before publication, but only in the proper medical journal, Same cannot be said for their online magazine of the same name that is a pure commercial venture. Both are owned by Elsevier.Back in the day Nature was one of the Tops, been sometime since I have closely followed the ranking of SciJournals.
Don't you mean No 2?I am probably lowish fibre and have two listed.
bricks
high cholesterol.... but we all know about that one...
Need to work on No1
Hj
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