The Guardian

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[...] what evidence there is demonstrates that high fat / low fibre diets increase the chances of cardiovascular disease

What about high fat, low fibre, high sugar? Or medium fat, low sugar, high protein? etc. etc. etc. These studies don’t care because their MO is to discourage low carbohydrate eating at any cost.

And again, none of this has to have anything to do with low carbohydrate eating, as it is entirely possible (in fact likely) for low carb eaters to consume vast quantities of fibrous vegetables. In fact I would imagine that there are more low carbers eating vegetables than there are carb-grazers. Certainly I would think the majority are clean eaters of real food, which is more than can be said for the general public at large.

Fibre only has to be linked to low carbohydrate if that is your mission objective.
 

Mr_Pot

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But if there are no essential dietary carbohydrates.. which is a well accepted scientific truth (not my opinion)... then there surely cannot be any essential dietary fibre. This logical fallacy that we somehow "need" fibre simply cannot be correct.
Edit to add otherwise anyone eating a carnivore diet would be dead plain and simple.
I think the fact that we don't need carbohydrates refers to its use as a source of glucose as we can synthesize glucose. Dietary fibre may well have different benefits so the logic that we don't need carbohydrates so we don't need fibre doesn't stand up.

Not having some essential nutrient does not necessarily result in instant death but may cause a long term problem, like rickets, iron deficient anemia or goitre. If you are still a carnivore and healthy in 20 years time that will be more of an argument.
 

DavidGrahamJones

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The Guardian has written that low carb and low fibre leads to early deaths,

Since removing bread, pasta, rice and potato from my diet and increasing my vegetable intake plus nuts, tomatoes, mushrooms the one thing I have noticed is the lack of need for anything to make me go, quite the opposite. If I was to consume only a portion of their suggested way of consuming 25 - 30 gms of fiber I would be in great need of medication to cope with the carbs. My weight problem would be even worse, even before taking the required medication. Anything making my pancreas produce more insulin than it is now would just make that weight problem worse still. So no matter what the scientists say, more fiber would shorten my life.
 

Resurgam

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I passed a discarded copy of The Times in the supermarket and the front page just below the title is the same headline.
 

Oldvatr

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Afternoon.

Here is the link to the study that is being discussed. The bulk of it is behind a paywall. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31809-9/fulltext

I'm guessing the reason many are having a pop at this is these types of study are relatively common, are routinely reactionary (Fat bad! Carbs good!) and are actually pretty insubstantial when you look at the details.

In terms of 'confirmation bias' what struck me is this from the abstract; they say they wanted "to establish an evidence base for quantitative recommendations for intakes of dietary fibre." That sounds very much to me like they 'know' we should be eating fibre and wanted to find out just how much and lo and behold they discovered that we should be eating fibre at a rate that 90% of the population doesn't. If you 'know' what you want to come out of your study then you are not doing a study you are engaged in marketing.

Their fibre recommendation is very precise which is peculiar to say the least from observational studies; there is a 4 gram leeway; between 25 g and 29 g is the best. How much worse is 24 g than 25 g? Is 35 g really no good as well?

Another thing is the oblique use of numbers versus improvements. Look at this sentence (from the study):

"Observational data suggest a 15–30% decrease in all-cause and cardiovascular related mortality, and incidence of coronary heart disease, stroke incidence and mortality, type 2 diabetes, and colorectal cancer when comparing the highest dietary fibre consumers with the lowest consumers Clinical trials show significantly lower body weight, systolic blood pressure, and total cholesterol when comparing higher with lower intakes of dietary fibre"

15-30% meaning what? Is that absolute or relative? (i.e. the difference between a 4% and a 3% chance of all-cause mortality is 33% relative reduction or the less glamorous 1% absolute). Which is this? If they don't say I'm guessing it's relative. Or are they saying that in the high fibre group 30% of the population avoided all-cause mortality? That they are now immortal? That would be good; but probably not what they mean, so why not detail the average life extension in those lucky 30% - could it be that it's insubstantial? Eat 200 kg of kale a day and live 3 days longer on average? Not so good.

How do those numbers cover those different outcomes is it 15-30% for each or in aggregate; i.e. are they all added up to get to that 15-30% figure or is for each bad outcome?

All in all this is a study looking at observational dietary studies (i.e. asking people often over a very long period what they eat which is famously problematic - what did you eat last year for instance?) and seeing how that correlates with their health.

There's nothing causative about it at all. What is the biological mechanism whereby fibre prevents coronary heart disease and type 2 diabetes? They don't know and/or aren't telling, probably because there is none.

Presumably, they discounted other health impacting habits like smoking? But they don't say that so it's possible that people who eat yams and don't smoke also tend not to do other health impairing things either (drink, drugs, no exercise and so on) and therefore live longer. To put that down to their yam consumption is stretching it a bit isn't it?

As mentioned above though these data specifically excluded people with chronic disease, i.e. diabetes, and so can't be held to be applicable to us as none of the 4,000 or so people who were the subject of these trials were diabetics.

I would say the risk from running high blood sugars which has been proven by clinical trials ( always keep this in mind; it's the basis for all our treatment on the NHS - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/projects/gap/cgi-bin/GetPdf.cgi?id=phd000390 ) and well understood mechanisms of arterial and neurological damage far outweighs the risk from fibre 'deficiency' that might (or might not) arise by avoiding carbohydrates.

In short the confirmation bias on display here is in that study not in the pretty measured response on this forum.

Dillinger
At last someone who understands the difference between relative risk and abolute risk . It also remains to be seen if they are using RR or HR to express risk. I remember a similar study on a certain statin med that ended up showing a very significant drop in risk (RR) for a CVE event. When this was turned into an absolute risk value by a researcher, it showed that the statin required to be max dose for 3 years to possibly increase life expectancy by 1 day.
 

Oldvatr

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One flaw, not of the study itself, but of the connection to the LC diets is:-
The metastudy looks at many reports from the past, which given that many will be long term studies on large populations, will be that the evidence theyare looking at was collected many years ago. Now Bantings diet has certainly been around for a hundred years at least, but its modern derivatives (Paleo and LCHF) and even Atkins are newcomers in the last few years, so are much less likely to be forming part of the database being used,

So the media is wrong to draw this conclusion since it has no basis at all either in the report or its substudies. It used to be Atkins bashing, now it is anything LC.
 

Oldvatr

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Of course carbs/fibre are not essential. You can live without them.
However, there is a mountain of evidence suggesting that you will not live as long as if you do eat them.

>>>>>......<<<<<<<<
Is this really true. and how does it fit in with your previous postings? carbs kill???? Not what you were saying earlier......
 
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Is this really true. and how does it fit in with your previous postings? carbs kill???? Not what you were saying earlier......
To quote myself " You will not live as long as if you do eat them".
i.e. you will live longer eating carbs/fibre than if you don't (unless you have no other way of controlling BG)/
 

Guzzler

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To quote myself " You will not live as long as if you do eat them".
i.e. you will live longer eating carbs/fibre than if you don't (unless you have no other way of controlling BG)/

One of the most oft reasons given to disuade people from a diet lower in carbs is that there are 'no long term studies'. There were no long term studies that proved the SAD was good for human health but it swept the west anyway. Now that groups such as Virta Health are recording clinical data in an effort to provide evidence it is only a matter of time. My point is that you can't have it both ways and selecting data that shows association rather than trials which prove causation is weak, very weak.
To close, I have yet to see/hear of real evidence that there is definitive causation of negative effects.
 
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Brunneria

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I couldn't comment on the book as I haven't read it. However, the sales blurb includes the following "On that diet (primal) we grew tall, strong and disease free". Really!
If the book is as accurate as this statement it is possibly full of (to quote Churchill) terminological inexactitudes.

So you are OK telling people they shouldn’t criticise a report they haven’t read in depth (you say this in several posts on this thread).

But then you happily criticise a book you haven’t read at all? Actually, your post comes across as mocking said book.

Can’t have it both ways, or you look hypocritical.

Incidentally, I have not read the report OR the book, since I know EXACTLY how much fibre my body tolerates (very little), and I will take my own unfortunate Disaster Pants experiences over any historically questionable* study any day.

*. By historically questionable, I mean that Low Carbing as an identifiable ‘thing’ is new. So asking people decades ago how they ate, and then assuming that a contemporary low carb way of eating is comparable is just a nonsense. Smacks of grandstanding to increase pay per view.
 
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JohnEGreen

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"
What are the symptoms of too much fiber?

The recommended daily intake of fiber is 25 grams per day for women and 38 grams per day for men. However, some experts estimate as much as 95 percent of the population don’t ingest this much fiber.
While it appears most people fall short of their recommended fiber intake, it’s actually possible to have too much fiber, especially if you increase your fiber intake very quickly. Too much fiber can cause:
bloating
abdominal pain
flatulence
loose stools or diarrhea
constipation
temporary weight gain
intestinal blockage in people with Crohn’s disease
reduced blood sugar levels, which is important to know if you have diabetes
Call your doctor right away if you’re experiencing nausea, vomiting, a high fever, or a complete inability to pass gas or stool."

So it would seem you can after all have too much of a good thing.

https://www.healthline.com/health/food-nutrition/too-much-fiber
 

lindisfel

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How many people eat whole grain breads and whole grain breakfast cereal?
They generally eat refined foods loaded with sugar and salt and bigfood rub their hands together in delight.
If it helps diabetics I reckon it's complete mature male bovine excrement.

They just have to get a cheap blood glucose meter to actually know what happens.
D.
 

Brunneria

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"
What are the symptoms of too much fiber?

The recommended daily intake of fiber is 25 grams per day for women and 38 grams per day for men. Too much fiber can cause:
bloating
abdominal pain
flatulence
loose stools or diarrhea
constipation
temporary weight gain

Yes, and I get those symptoms with less than 10g of fibre a day.

Thank you for this @JohnEGreen

It is another great example of why one portion of fibre really doesn’t fit all.

Mind you, I am perfectly happy for all those who need/flourish on 30+g of fibre to carry on doing so.
In fact, they can have mine!
 

Oldvatr

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actually Prof J Cummings MD who is a co author of the report in the OP does seem to know his onions, He has co written several WHO studies and reports and sits on several of their comittees.

https://www.dundee.ac.uk/medicine/staff/profile/john-cummings.php#tab-Publications

He seems to enjoy gut fermentation and the outcomes of it, so could be said to know his s**t better than I do. His treatise on carbohydrate classification is an interesting read - not all carbs are equal. But it is published in Nature.......erm

https://www.nature.com/articles/1602936
 

Bluetit1802

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I know I do not eat anywhere near the amount of this latest recommended amount of fibre.
Out of interest I have been googling for symptoms of insufficient fibre.

This seems to be:
constipation (less than 3 bowel movements a week and/or hard stools)
weight gain
always hungry
high cholesterol
constantly nauseous
high blood sugar
tummy ache during digestion (diverticulitis)

I will continue as I am with my low carb eating plan. I have none of those symptoms
 
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hankjam

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actually Prof J Cummings MD who is a co author of the report in the OP does seem to know his onions, He has co written several WHO studies and reports and sits on several of their comittees.

https://www.dundee.ac.uk/medicine/staff/profile/john-cummings.php#tab-Publications

He seems to enjoy gut fermentation and the outcomes of it, so could be said to know his s**t better than I do. His treatise on carbohydrate classification is an interesting read - not all carbs are equal. But it is published in Nature.......erm

https://www.nature.com/articles/1602936

Back in the day Nature was one of the Tops, been sometime since I have closely followed the ranking of SciJournals.
 

hankjam

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I know I do not eat anywhere near the amount of this latest recommended amount of fibre.
Out of interest I have been googling for symptoms of insufficient fibre.

This seems to be:
constipation (less than 3 bowel movements a week and/or hard stools)
weight gain
always hungry
high cholesterol
constantly nauseous
high blood sugar
tummy ache during digestion (diverticulitis)

I will continue as I am with my low carb eating plan. I have none of those symptoms

I am probably lowish fibre and have two listed.
bricks
high cholesterol.... but we all know about that one...

Need to work on No1

Hj
 
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Oldvatr

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Back in the day Nature was one of the Tops, been sometime since I have closely followed the ranking of SciJournals.
My Goto was Omni - all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff there. The Lancet is a good source now since they review before publication, but only in the proper medical journal, Same cannot be said for their online magazine of the same name that is a pure commercial venture. Both are owned by Elsevier.

New Scientist can be entertaining, but again I think its halo has slipped a bit too.