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This doctor adopts an opposite approach to LCHF to reverse type 2

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by Confucius, Jan 29, 2017.

  1. Confucius

    Confucius Prediabetes · Member

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    Many members here showed how LCHF diet improved their diabetes and weight loss. And I started LCHF diet two weeks ago feeling good. But this doctor seems to use a different approach:


    http://www.pcrm.org/shop/byNealBarnard/dr-barnards-program-for-reversing-diabetes

    Personally, I don't think it is more convincing than LCHF. Probably it is a different version using fats in nuts, etc to replace animal fats and vegetable oils. If so, it is still LCHF but for a vegetarian?

    I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
     
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  2. seadragon

    seadragon Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    This was one of the first videos I saw after being diagnosed with pre diabetes and it seemed to make sense at the time. But I would be unhappy giving up meat etc. He mentions the guy lost 60 pound in weight on the diet so obviously it was a better diet than the guy was previously eating and as per Newcastle study losing a significant amount of weight can reverse diabetes. Had the same guy lost weight by any other means he may still have reversed his diabetes.
    Dr Barnard mentions the fat in the cells blocking the insulin key but fails to mention that it is glucose that turns quickest to fat in the body - and carbs = glucose. Dietary fat is not automatically fat in the cells - it just shares the name fat. He also tries to say humans are herbivores but the truth is surely that they are omnivores and can eat both. He talks about teeth but he doesn't mention that we don't have 4 stomachs like cows do in order to digest their vegetarian diet nor do we eat our own poo like rabbits do to be able to digest their vegetarian food. Selective facts don't tell the whole story.
    Humans don't hunt like animals do - we are cleverer and there are studies that say humans caught game not by being quick but by persistence and endurance and following the game til it dropped.
    It is worth contrasting this talk with the one by Dr Sarah Hallberg - also a TED talk -
    Through Dr Hallberg's talk and Dietdoctor.com I found LCHF and really enjoyed the food. It allowed for effortless weight loss and technically I am no longer even pre diabetic. My lipid profile has also improved.
    Upshot is that either approach can be successful so it depends whether you are happy being vegetarian or eating low carb high fat. Both can result in weight loss and both can apparently reverse diabetes (although I only have first hand experience of the efficacy of LCHF). Or the third way by very low calorie diets is also successful for some but not something I'd want to do.
     
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    #2 seadragon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:23 AM
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  3. Tophat1900

    Tophat1900 Type 3c · Well-Known Member

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    That is interesting, might have to do some digging and see what particulars I can find, but there seems to be some serious flaws as mentioned in the post above mine.
     
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  4. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    There is probably more than one way to achieve similar results. So I keep an open mind that some ways may be more suitable for others...their premise is that it is the animal proteins and fats that is the undelying cause of insulin resistance, not the carbs overload...
    https://www.facebook.com/mindfuldiabetic/?hc_ref=SEARCH&fref=nf
     
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  5. @Confucius I believe this way of eating is actually HCLF in that it is very low fat and high starch. I haven't tried it myself, but there is a forum for it in which there are several thousand posts in the success stories section so who knows? Perhaps you could have a look. I don't think you will find many Dr McDougall fans in this neck of the woods based on previous threads about him.

    A vegan low carb/healthy fat diet is how I eat and it works a treat at managing my diabetes.
     
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  6. pleinster

    pleinster Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    It is complete nonsense to state that human beings are herbivores. Any half decent archaeological or anthropological study of the evolution of man from australopithecus/hominid animal/proto-humans demonstrates this beyond any shadow of doubt. It should also be noted that more than one early species/variant hominid (such as paranthropus boisie) died out because climate change denied that cousin of early man access to his very specialised diet - strictly vegetables). Today, homo sapiens sapiens (the present human being) generally has access to a wider range of foods and is safe enough to choose a lifestyle is it is affordable. I have been vegetarian in the past...and have no issues whatsoever about people choosing not to eat meat or solely eating meat...but to say that man should not eat meat from any reason other than individual moral thoughts or preference is absolute drivel. What does need to be stressed...as is evident through obesity and diabetes and a range of other physical states and conditions... is that human beings who eat too much mass produced, processed rubbish (including all the high carbohydrate products we are constantly bombarded with by those who make money if we keep buying them) face consequences. Perhaps if early human beings had eaten only those kinds of food...none of us would be here to debate the point! I choose to do what works for me...and that is to avoid carbs where practical. Note, please..I am not trying to sell a book, DVD or to promote awareness of my amazing method. I am just a sarcastic Type 2 who knows opinion from knowledge... most of the time.
     
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  7. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I try to stay open to diets that have been shown to work over time. Dr. Barnard is promoting a whole foods plant based (WFPB) diet that is high in complex carbohydrates, no added fat allowed, nor animal protein or fat. What I find interesting is that you have to buy his 2008 book or register to take their 21 day kick start program to learn the diet's requirements.

    Low Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diet (LCKD) researchers Volek and Phinney state that 10% of their study participants do not do well on the LCKD. Unlike most of us here, they tolerate a high (healthly) carbohydrate diet quite well. So it's likely that Barnard's diabetes diet works well for some people.

    My suggestion would be to try the LCHF diet, LCKD, or vegetarian LCHF diet/LCKD first, then if that doesn't work based on your lab work results going the wrong way, then try Barnard's diet. We each have to base our dietary choices on what works based on glucose testing, lab work, and over all feelings of wellness. :)
     
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    #7 Winnie53, Jan 30, 2017 at 2:14 AM
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  8. ickihun

    ickihun Type 2 · Master

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    Any previous overeater who keeps their insulin need down compared to their previous diet will lose weight.
    Too much insulin adds weight -fact.

    For me my body has been in starvation mode too many times for my body to ignore. My body protects me from starvation after too many diets.
    My body needs reformulating on a stable diet, long term. Instead of jumping from one thing to the next.
    Metformin helps with that when I don't catch bugs of the young kids, that is.
    Stability in food intake with no foods which cause too much insulin production for that individual.
    Slow and steady works for me.
     
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  9. Jaylee

    Jaylee Type 1 · Expert
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    Too much insulin causes hypoglycemia..!
    Eating too many carbs to "pander" to these high insulin amounts, (thus stopping the hypos.) causes the weight gain..
    But I do agree one needs to get the dosage right in order to keep the carbs down.. ;)

    Speaking as an insulin user of course..
     
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  10. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Totally agreeing with @Winnie53
    (missed you by the way, Winnie. hope you are well?)

    Just as there are some who don't do well on LCHF (with the protein/animal product side) and others who don't do well on the low calorie side (with persistent slowing down of metabolic rate), there are some (me!) who don't do well on vegetarian/vegan and high carb.

    Having tried vegetarianism, and too many carbs (usually low GI, wholegrain, unprocessed, etc.) my body has offered plenty of evidence that way of eating isn't for me:
    - soya intolerance
    - gluten/grain intolerance
    - psoriasis, bloating and joint pain (from the grains)
    - heartburn and loose bowels (mainly from wheat)
    - yawning and brain fog (soya)
    - weight gain (fluid retention from the carbs)
    and, of course
    - high blood glucose, swinging high/low blood glucose and reactive hypoglycaemic episodes.

    Everyone needs to find out what is best for their own body, but HCLF would not, does not and will not work for me.
     
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  11. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Yes Brunneria, I don't do well on anything but LCHF and LCKD, but I have three, possibly four autoimmune conditions in addition to the diabetes which is a game changer. I eliminated wheat, rye, and barley from my diet in 2011, and now eat grain free and no soy unless it's organic and fermented. Intestinal permeability, more commonly referred to as "leaky gut", appears to me at least to be a growing problem in the USA. What follows that are food sensitivities then autoimmune disease. Celiac Disease and Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity does not adequately explain the problem. I think herbicides are a bigger contributor. Glyphosate specifically damages the gut flora, so I only eat organic, non-GMO now.

    By the way, the Autoimmune Revolution health summit hosted by Peter Osbourne starts today. It's free. Go here to learn more... http://autoimmunerevolution.org/

    All that said, I do know some people who do fine with high carb. I so envy them!

    I kept my old job and am working in a new job now, and happily busy. Recently, I've been listening to lots of experts on thyroid disease. As a result of that I added 15 mg zinc citrate and 200 mcg selenium to my daily regimen and for the first time in years, I'm experiencing resting pulse rates in the 70's and 80's rather than the usual 90's and 100's. Hoping this continues!
     
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  12. Freema

    Freema Type 2 · Expert

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    too much insuline only causes hypoglychemia if one is not so insuline resistant that ones blood glucose never gets low like under 4...

    most type 2 diabetics have an insuline level more than 4-10 times the normal level in non-diabetics (but their insuline does not work right anymore, but can still lead to obesity)... and their blood glucose is not in the hypoglychemic area in no way...
     
  13. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    @Jaylee she's a type 2 diabetic. I believe she's referring to insulin produced by the pancreas, not injected insulin. :)
     
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  14. Jaylee

    Jaylee Type 1 · Expert
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    If was under the impression @ickihun was on some sort of "Mixotard"? Her profile is hidden however... This may clarify my intentions.... http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/dodgy-insulin-pens.46312/page-2#post-1228230

    I am also a little wary regarding insulin users & weight issues (perceived or not. ) accepting @ickihun 's post as fact. Thus the issue of "neglecting" correct dosage.. (Or not injecting at all..)With the misconception that insulin alone makes one fat..?
    Please also check my profile out & come back to slap me if you find any judgmental stuff regarding weight..?
    This is purely about the "fact" regarding insulin...
    I Sincerely empathise with anyone with a pancreas "out of control".
    Also. I'd just like to add. I champion the LCHF too..

    Peace & love. No one has the time to go round the houses when we're basically all on the same page! ;)
     
    #14 Jaylee, Jan 30, 2017 at 8:51 PM
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  15. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    @Jaylee, thanks for further clarifying.

    I read the post you linked to. Looks like she was injecting insulin during her pregnancies only.

    From a type 2 perspective everything she says reflects my personal experience: high insulin (from pancreas) and high glucose levels in poorly managed type 2 diabetes leads to weight gain (due to worsening insulin resistance) and further deterioration of health. Injecting insulin in type 2's is sometimes necessary but needs to be done thoughtfully to avoid worsening insulin resistance further. This has happened to two type 2 diabetics that I'm currently supporting.

    What you said from a type 1 perspective is true too. Too much injected insulin causes potentially life threatening hypos.

    Wish I didn't have to rush out the door. What I'm trying to clarify is that you're both right within the context of your diagnoses. Hope that makes sense... :)
     
  16. Jaylee

    Jaylee Type 1 · Expert
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    So, getting back on topic.. There are two "case studies" with this diet.. "Vance." & some guy in the UK told,to come back for a second Aic in "two months" after the first great result? & never went back..?? Flimsy "sales pitch" exported from Iowa...

    Agreed! I would also put to you that a possibility for me as a T1 increasing carb intake & thus insulin could also result in a weight gain furthering some sort of possible increase in insulin to carb ratio...? Best wishes! :)
     
  17. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Agreed Jaylee. Type 1's can develop insulin resistance too. :)
     
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