To statin or not?

[smc4761]

Very true, but proof is only a matter of opinion when there is none. If people want to use words like “proof” then that’s fine, but they can reasonably expect their comments to be scrutinised

@Jim Lahey what would you consider proof. Surely 20 years worth of my medical records is pretty much proof that, for me at least, they work.

I now have a cholestorol level of around 3.2 which it has been for many years

 

[bulkbiker]

I now have a cholestorol level of around 3.2 which it has been for many years

If you believe that is "good" then great.. personally if mine were that low I'd be worried.

The liver makes cholesterol for a reason.. without it we'd be dead.

 

[smc4761]

Proof of what?

@therower claimed "proof of the drugs benefits"(sic)

Statins lower cholesterol .. that seems to be fairly well agreed.. whether that is beneficial or not will depend entirely on whether you believe elevated cholesterol "causes" heart disease or doesn't.

I'm firmly in the latter camp and have posted a thread with all the evidence for my thoughts as post 2 on the thread.
If you have time to trawl through it then you may find some things that are new.

That many seem happy to think that LDL and HDL are "cholesterol" shows a lack of basic understanding of the mechanics. But hey what does 3 years of reading lead to?

So 3 years of reading makes you a qualified medic. You need to keep taking the tablets (not the statins)

 

[bulkbiker]

So 3 years of reading makes you a qualified medic. You need to keep taking the tablets (not the statins)

Not at all (and please note I have not made that claim anywhere... you did) but it has certainly led me to question the widespread use of such drugs that can have no end of side effects and lead to a very minor benefit even for those who have had a cardiac event and probably zero benefit for those that haven't.
I am simply providing my opinion (a bit the @therower ) with a great deal of supporting evidence (unlike @therower ) and there I shall leave it.

Edit to add I don't take any medications whatsoever... but I'm sure you know that anyway...

 

[ianf0ster]

If you actually believe the Lipid hypothesis of Coronary Heart Disease, then if you are also under 60 and male there may be enough evidence that Statins can reduce the risk of a (probably non-fatal) heart attack. However even though non of the actual figures for all these Statin trials by Big Pharma have ever been released - just the portions of their own analysis which they want released, that alone shows A). Statins for women over 60 actually shortens their lives. B) even in men, the all-cause mortality is lower in those with Higher LDL i.e there is doubt that statins do any good.

In a talk 2yrs ago to the Public Health Collaboration Conference, Dr Malcom Kendrick presented a list of many more significant potential causes of Heart Disease than LDL which included Lead, Smoking, Air Pollution the drug AVASTIN , he also showed a list of more significant things associated with a drop in Heart Disease which included VIAGRA (50 times more significant), Exercise, Vitamin C, Vitamin D, Sunshine, and ASPIRIN.

Here is the link:

Here is a link to Dr Aseem Malhotra (Cardiologist) talking about the lack of independent evidence:

Edited to say that although upon TD diagnosis, I persuaded my GP to reduce my Statin dose, I am still taking a lower dose of Atorvastatin (Lipitor).

 

[therower]

My dear @bulkbiker you seem to be taking all this to a very personal level. I may be totally wrong in what I say but as a man I will stand by opinions.
The fact you have read and studied “ cholesterol “ for 3 yrs is admirable but still falls 17 yrs short of the evidence/ proof or however you prefer to term it.
And please if you say you are going to leave it there, then do so.
Adding another line of information is contradictory.

 

[Mr_Pot]

If you actually believe the Lipid hypothesis of Coronary Heart Disease, then if you are also under 60 and male there may be enough evidence that Statins can reduce the risk of a (probably non-fatal) heart attack. However even though non of the actual figures for all these Statin trials by Big Pharma have ever been released - just the portions of their own analysis which they want released, that alone shows A). Statins for women over 60 actually shortens their lives. B) even in men, the all-cause mortality is lower in those with Higher LDL i.e there is doubt that statins do any good.

In a talk 2yrs ago to the Public Health Collaboration Conference, Dr Malcom Kendrick presented a list of many more significant potential causes of Heart Disease than LDL which included Lead, Smoking, Air Pollution the drug AVASTIN , he also showed a list of more significant things associated with a drop in Heart Disease which included VIAGRA (50 times more significant), Exercise, Vitamin C, Vitamin D, Sunshine, and ASPIRIN.

Here is the link:

Here is a link to Dr Aseem Malhotra (Cardiologist) talking about the lack of independent evidence:

Edited to say that although upon TD diagnosis, I persuaded my GP to reduce my Statin dose, I am still taking a lower dose of Atorvastatin (Lipitor).

You seem to have lots of evidence for the lack of benefit of statins but you are still taking them - why is that?

 

[Guzzler]

All i can say is from my experience having had high cholesterol and now having a score of 2.5 they seem to work for me if i sat and read all the stories about them im sure i also would be skeptical about taking them it really is all about choice i think like me a lot of people dont realize how bad this illness can be

Just to clarify, you have a total Cholesterol count of 2.5?

 

[porl69]

I am under a nephrologist as I have stage 4CKD. He has told me that statins are not really good for my kidneys BUT the positives far outway the negatives. The effects are minimal. I think I will take his advice, after all I think he may know a little more about them through experience rather than 3 years of reading......

 

[ianf0ster]

I am under a nephrologist as I have stage 4CKD. He has told me that statins are not really good for my kidneys BUT the positives far outway the negatives. The effects are minimal. I think I will take his advice, after all I think he may know a little more about them through experience rather than 3 years of reading......

Your choice. Personally I wouldn't take that risk.

Why do I still stake low dose stations?
My GP is legitimately concerned because I've had a 3x Coronary Artery Bypass, There is less doubt about the effectiveness of Statins in people who have already had a heart attack (though I only had Angina - not an actual Heart Attack).

A). On this statin - unlike Simvastatin I was on many years ago, I get no side effects.
B). I prefer to avoid screaming matches with my GP. As would be the case if I did my current LCHF and had a lipid test during the weight loss phase. So I just keep taking them. Once I have a test when in weight stabilisation mode, I will have a lower LDL and much lower Triglycerides level and so be in a position to either agree no statins with my GP (no need) or else feel confident enough to just not take those prescribed.

 

[therower]

@ianf0ster . Surely if you are taking statins, even if as you say you have no side effects then you are taking a risk.
More interesting is the point you make that seems to suggest you take this medication in order to avoid confrontation with your GP.
Would, if , heaven forbid something should go wrong with your health, would you blame yourself or your GP if it turned out the problem was statins related?

 

[porl69]

Your choice. Personally I wouldn't take that risk.

Why do I still stake low dose stations?
My GP is legitimately concerned because I've had a 3x Coronary Artery Bypass, There is less doubt about the effectiveness of Statins in people who have already had a heart attack (though I only had Angina - not an actual Heart Attack).

A). On this statin - unlike Simvastatin I was on many years ago, I get no side effects.
B). I prefer to avoid screaming matches with my GP. As would be the case if I did my current LCHF and had a lipid test during the weight loss phase. So I just keep taking them. Once I have a test when in weight stabilisation mode, I will have a lower LDL and much lower Triglycerides level and so be in a position to either agree no statins with my GP (no need) or else feel confident enough to just not take those prescribed.

It's a risk I have been taking for 4 years with my CKD and nigh on 20 years on the statins. Kidneys are still functioning at 21% and cholesterol is in normal limits. Is the risk worth it?? I, in my case, strongly say yes

 

[Listlad]

Two points of note.

• Statins and cholesterol. Two topics on this forum that come across as grey and fuzzy in terms of understanding.
• Reading up on flying an aircraft isn’t the same as actually flying one.

 

[therower]

Reading up on flying an aircraft isn’t the same as actually flying one.

Totally agree. Reading the bible doesn’t necessarily make you holy. Being a vicar most likely makes you more holy.

 

[Member496333]

@Jim Lahey what would you consider proof. Surely 20 years worth of my medical records is pretty much proof that, for me at least, they work.

I now have a cholestorol level of around 3.2 which it has been for many years

Proof of lowering your serum cholesterol is not in dispute. That is what statins do. Proof of 'benefits', however, is subjective and open to debate. To be clear, it's of no consequence to me if you choose to take a statin. That is entirely your own business.

 

[Member496333]

Reading up on flying an aircraft isn’t the same as actually flying one.

In fairness, @bulkbiker has probably done more research into cholesterol and statin therapy than the average GP

 

[ianf0ster]

@ianf0ster . Surely if you are taking statins, even if as you say you have no side effects then you are taking a risk.
More interesting is the point you make that seems to suggest you take this medication in order to avoid confrontation with your GP.
Would, if , heaven forbid something should go wrong with your health, would you blame yourself or your GP if it turned out the problem was statins related?

I take responsibility for my own health so far as CHD and T2D are concerned. - I have to because my GP has demonstrated that:
A). He knows less about the subject than I do.
B). He is prepared to tell bare -faced lies in order to coerce me into accepting the drugs he is pushing. For example saying that there is no such thing as too low an LDL and that humans require zero salt whatsoever !

So if the statins caused a problem, then yes I would accept that it was my own fault for taking them in order to avoid confrontation.
But since I am currently getting no side-effects, the only harm they seem to be doing me is raising my BG - which I 'm counteracting by going lower carb than I would otherwise have to do.

So yes, I have the knowledge and the confidence to take control of my own health! - Don't you ?

 

[Resurgam]

On the BMJ Open website I found an article about LDL cholesterol and age at death - the higher the higher, with statistical significance. Taking statins and lowering cholesterol is likely to shorten your life, or at any rate, not extend it.
I don't think that there is much doubt that for some people taking statins lowers their cholesterol - but that really doesn't seem to be a good idea at all.

 

[Goonergal]

Folks please stick to discussing the topic without the use of jibes or personal digs.

 

[Daphne917]

I don’t think that there is any dispute that statins do reduce cholesterol - mine dropped from 5.4 to 3.2 when I was on them however it is whether or not they are beneficial that is in debate. For me they were counter productive and the cons far outweighed the pros in that I had side effects such as dizzy spells, sleep disturbance and an increase in my hba1c from 48 to 54. Unfortunately my DN didn’t want to believe the increase in my hba1c could be due to the statins, despite me telling her I’d researched from the manufacturers own website and these were known side effects, as she was only looking at the reduced cholesterol figures which she was obviously delighted about. In the end I discussed the statins with my pharmacist who agreed that it was probably them causing these issues and, with my GPs consent, I decided not to take them anymore and my side effects gradually disappeared and hba1c reduced to non diabetic levels.