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Today R4 program- depressing

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by xfieldok, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. xfieldok

    xfieldok Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Interview with professor someone, announcing low cal, liquid diet being rolled out on NHS. Brought one of his successful participants who exclaimed she had reversed her diabetes and her last test was 42. Yay.
     
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  2. Diakat

    Diakat Type 1 · Moderator
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    It was Roy Taylor. He gave some pretty useless answers when directly asked about what people should do long term - cut fat, cut calories or cut carbs.
     
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  3. xfieldok

    xfieldok Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I shouted at the radio.
     
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  4. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    I keep trying to find out the exact HbA1c levels of those on the DiRECT trial who are still "in remission" after 2 years with little to no success. Possibly because the people who are involved in the trial and I have crossed twitter swords a few times already...!
    I fear that a lot might still be hovering in the pre-diabetes area..
    I also tried to find out how the 5 people in the control group put their T2 into remission too but again no answer..
     
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  5. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I respect Roy Taylor because he established that type 2 could be taken into remission with an RCt including scanning of visceral fat levels, and I suspect he won't speak on the validity of other approaches because he has only done work on the low cal one and understands this as a method to strip the liver and pancreas of fat and therefore reverse diabetes.
    He is probably getting some money out of promoting the 800 kcal approach and I note he is in the Daily Mail alongside the ubiquitous Michael Mosley who tends to promote a Mediterranean style 800 kcal diet because it worked for him.
    My questions about the diet are along the lines of what does it do to someone's metabolic rate and therefore their ability to sustain fat loss even if they resume normal eating with a healthier low gi/Mediterranean diet?
    Thankfully as many people here can attest there are now other ways than starvation and bariatric surgery to achieve the same result and even the NHS is open to low carb so I do think this is permeating albeit slowly for those of you in the know.
    What really irks me in the media in general is the focus on calories and general unquestioned assumption around diabetes and obesity being a calories problem.
     
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  6. xfieldok

    xfieldok Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I just think that allowing someone with an hba1c of 42 to believe she has reversed her diabetes is tragic.
     
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  7. ianf0ster

    ianf0ster Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    As I have mentioned in other threads, the NHS appears to use the following criteria for Type 2 'remission' :
    A single HbA1c of less than 48 (less than 6.5%) having previously been higher than that. The person may still be taking some diabetes medication e.g. Metformin.

    I agree with NicoleC1971 regarding doubts the Low Calorie diet's effect on someone's metabolic rate and therefore their ability to sustain fat loss even if they resume normal eating with a healthier low gi/Mediterranean diet?
     
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  8. Resurgam

    Resurgam Type 2 (in remission!) · Expert

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    Rather sad that his example must have gone through quite a palaver to get where she is, with Hba1c of 42, and I just breezed along down to the same number without any great effort other than hauling all those bags of meat, boxes of eggs etc. from the butcher
     
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  9. xfieldok

    xfieldok Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    She started at 50, went to 48 then reversed at 42.
     
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  10. Lotties

    Lotties Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    I think the phrase 'Lies, damn lies & statistics' needs an update. 'Lies, damn lies, statistics & thresholds'.
     
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  11. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    I hovered in the Prediabetic area for about 3 years before finally going lchf.
     
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  12. Hotpepper20000

    Hotpepper20000 · Well-Known Member

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    I think if people where actually tested for insulin resistance it would clear up wether or not someone is “cured”.
    Everything else is just a guessing game.
     
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    #12 Hotpepper20000, Jan 14, 2020 at 6:49 PM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  13. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    You're missing the point (deliberately?).. ..to be "in remission" you shouldn't be pre-diabetic..
     
  14. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    No. You are missing the point. I was agreeing with you. I sat in the Prediabetic range for several years practising the Eatwell diet and only dropped clear of the Prediabetic range after going lchf.
     
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  15. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse · Well-Known Member

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    Professor Roy Taylor is one of the pioneers of diabetic eye screening in the UK - a very inspirational person.
    https://www.diabetes.org.uk/researc...search-spotlight-eye-tests-prevents-blindness

    Regarding diet, his published research https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/#publications is overturning the long-held view that type 2 diabetes progresses inexorably. The more this knowledge is disseminated, the more receptive the average GP will be to attempts to control diabetes by diet, such as low-carbing. On the Today programme, when talking about how to eat after the low-calorie phase, he said, "in our carbohydrate-driven environment, recognising that we take too much of that and modestly cutting back is also an easy gain" but emphasized that the exact way of eating depended on people's preferences. Advice from a well-respected diabetes researcher that it's advisable to reduce carbohydrate will carry far more weight with GPs than claims from patients about something that they read on the internet.
     
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  16. DavidGrahamJones

    DavidGrahamJones Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    If you cut calories, especially if you're reducing to 800 calories, then there's a fair chance that you will reduce carbs. When I reduced my carb intake by cutting out what I call the obvious carbs like bread, pasta, potato and rice, then I reduced my calorie intake by 700 calories.
     
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  17. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    What Prof ???? (aka Roy Taylor) has done is to get mentioned in the GP journals and press that the GP's read to keep themselves up to date. GP's have a high workload so these NHS approved channels are a must if we are to have HCP's changing their attitudes to our care.

    They are regimented and limited by NICE, and that still mandates the EATWELL guidelines. GP's are not free to make their decisions unilaterally. It is the CCG that decides on local treatment issues.

    The general public is starting to use web based information and media information as the prime mover in their lives, as seen by the rise of Fake News. GP's as a whole are advised to ask their patients not to trust Dr Google, and to refrain from visiting this site (among others). This is what my GP practice does, and there are posters around on the noticeboards.
     
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  18. Bluetit1802

    Bluetit1802 Type 2 (in remission!) · Guru

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    Prof Taylor is all over the Daily Fail today with pages of recipes to get rid of diabetes. Haven't had time to read it all yet.
     
  19. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    I keep hearing adverts on the radio for diet related material in the Daily Mail this week / month.
     
  20. ringi

    ringi Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    They claim this was due to the people finding out from the media etc what the intervention group was doing. There was a lot of news coverage about the study at the time. Personally I expected people who join a diabetes reversal study are very likely to use Google, and we have no ideal what they found.

    To give some contect the control group got better results then any formal RCT got in the intervention group before DiRECT.
     
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