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Variation in carbs tolerance for Type2s

Lamont D said:
T 2 is not in any way at all 'simple'!
How can it be when most doctors rummage around for the cause.
Do you know for definite, how or why, you got diabetes, the root cause or causes?
So if you don't know why, how can you solve the problem?
These supposed experts, have a agenda, and if they get an audience, they may get lucky with some but it is dangerous to advise people as though every one of us got diabetes the same way and it's about lifestyle!
which is total ********!
You are right, you have to know what your body copes better with and for a decade nearly, I have advised, control of blood glucose levels is the single important factor in trying to gain remission.
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I have seen that Dr David Unwin pays great respect to Taylor and credits him in particular with his own understanding of the basis of T2D. I feel certain he would view Taylor as an expert rather than a supposed one. Of course all scientific positions can be wrong, or at least challengeable, but I do think that Taylor’s agenda as an innovative scientist over many decades is simply to do good science, not trying to get lucky with audiences.
 
he has done much work in the field of diabetes research. I believe that the current eye scrrening programe is derived from his early work.. Unfortunately he is now holdng the chair in a large academic department, and this is a mainly admin position. He has to land contracts for services and projects, or his department will dwindle and wither away. My son is a Dr of physics in another Uni, and he too is forced tp spend a lot of his time chasing openings for his team to pick up and run with next year. His own research is suffering as a consequence.

The original study into the ND diet was funded by DUK and NHS to find a cheaper solution to the current practice of bariatric surgery for obesity causing as a by product the chance of some patients also gaining remission from T2D. So he looked at using a diet to replace surgery cheaply. This was the aim, and diabetes remission was a secondary outcome. He and his co author have now formed a business selling the ND diet plan and the diet shakes as an offshoot to his work at Newcastle. So he seems to have a financial motive there. He also has several Prospective Papers trying to gain funding for research into Beta cell dedifferentiation which he intends to launch on the back of ND.

It is not his research that I have difficulty with, it is the conclusions he makes to justify the results that do not really add up. There is also an area where an error has been discovered in his maths that exaggerates some of the results and thus some of his claims are built on sand. Some, not all.
 
Oldvatr said:
he has done much work in the field of diabetes research. I believe that the current eye scrrening programe is derived from his early work.. Unfortunately he is now holdng the chair in a large academic department, and this is a mainly admin position. He has to land contracts for services and projects, or his department will dwindle and wither away. My son is a Dr of physics in another Uni, and he too is forced tp spend a lot of his time chasing openings for his team to pick up and run with next year. His own research is suffering as a consequence.

The original study into the ND diet was funded by DUK and NHS to find a cheaper solution to the current practice of bariatric surgery for obesity causing as a by product the chance of some patients also gaining remission from T2D. So he looked at using a diet to replace surgery cheaply. This was the aim, and diabetes remission was a secondary outcome. He and his co author have now formed a business selling the ND diet plan and the diet shakes as an offshoot to his work at Newcastle. So he seems to have a financial motive there. He also has several Prospective Papers trying to gain funding for research into Beta cell dedifferentiation which he intends to launch on the back of ND.

It is not his research that I have difficulty with, it is the conclusions he makes to justify the results that do not really add up. There is also an area where an error has been discovered in his maths that exaggerates some of the results and thus some of his claims are built on sand. Some, not all.
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One would hope that shaky conclusions, those expressed in papers at least, would be filtered out by peer review. But that too is imperfect. I sympathise with your son’s plight in science research, having lived through just the same for nearly forty years. Academic life ain’t what it was …
 
I think we have a lot to thank Professor Taylor for. He actually started to build traction in the idea that the progress of diabetes could be a two way street, as opposed to progressive worsening being the only outcome.

Whatever the research, I think anyone breaking ground will most certainly be overtaken because they do so much of the foundation digging for their fellow researchers who likely have more open minds (not having spent X years "proving" Y.

Despite what we are led to believe, T2 isn't well understood by most day-to-day medics, and many Endos are poorly knowledged because, aside from other factors, they just don't encounter many T2s doing well in their day to day lives.

I see an Endo for my thyroid, but whilst he is "the guy" for tricky thyroids, much of his day-to-day work is with T1 diabetes. Based on my historic blood profiles, we have had some interesting discussions. He is open minded to varying dietary approaches but isn't convinced low carb is long term sustainable. By the time I see him next month, I'll be 9yrs low carb. I wonder how long he's thinking for unsustainability.
 
I am not sure Taylor is that up with diabetes either. In his study, he used an IVGTT procedure to show that the first response insulin output is improved by the intervention. Trouble is that the first insulin response trigger is amylase enzyme that is released by saliva in the mouth. An Oral GTT will trigger this response, but the IVGTT bypasses the mouth, so there is no trigger occurring. This is a well known aspect of IVGTT testing. The second aspect is that experiments with Type 1 patients using c-peptide test shows that insulin secretion is directly associated with body surface area. BSA is calculated from the BMI and uses weight to define mass. Lose weight during the trial.and the c-peptide will change directly as a result off the BMI term and the fact that the ND study was primariy a significant weight loss intervention. Hence the apparent increase in insulin secretion over the term of the trial.
 
AndBreathe said:
I think we have a lot to thank Professor Taylor for. He actually started to build traction in the idea that the progress of diabetes could be a two way street, as opposed to progressive worsening being the only outcome.

Whatever the research, I think anyone breaking ground will most certainly be overtaken because they do so much of the foundation digging for their fellow researchers who likely have more open minds (not having spent X years "proving" Y.

Despite what we are led to believe, T2 isn't well understood by most day-to-day medics, and many Endos are poorly knowledged because, aside from other factors, they just don't encounter many T2s doing well in their day to day lives.

I see an Endo for my thyroid, but whilst he is "the guy" for tricky thyroids, much of his day-to-day work is with T1 diabetes. Based on my historic blood profiles, we have had some interesting discussions. He is open minded to varying dietary approaches but isn't convinced low carb is long term sustainable. By the time I see him next month, I'll be 9yrs low carb. I wonder how long he's thinking for unsustainability.
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Thinking about low carbs, are there any cases known in which (bizarrely perhaps) someone has lived for years on virtually no carbs but has put on a good deal of abdominal fat by hugely over-eating on fats and protein, and only then has become diabetic with their liver and pancreas clogged with fat? That is, a case in which carbs excess has manifestly had no part to play in either cause or remediation?
 
chrisjohnh said:
Thinking about low carbs, are there any cases known in which (bizarrely perhaps) someone has lived for years on virtually no carbs but has put on a good deal of abdominal fat by hugely over-eating on fats and protein, and only then has become diabetic with their liver and pancreas clogged with fat? That is, a case in which carbs excess has manifestly had no part to play in either cause or remediation?
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Body builders? Sumo wrestlers? Not sure if there is any suggestion these groups have a significant increase in T2D over the average. My wife was huge and ate carbs but did not have diabetes. I shared my low carb diet ( not keto levels) with her and she dropped over 10 stone in weight. still did not get diabetes. I am thin (TOFI) and I got diabolics.

PS I lost 8 stone too, and went from 38" to 30" waistband, on that diet. I kept my diabolics.
 
Oldvatr said:
Body builders? Sumo wrestlers? Not sure if there is any suggestion these groups have a significant increase in T2D over the average. My wife was huge and ate carbs but did not have diabetes. I shared my low carb diet ( not keto levels) with her and she dropped over 10 stone in weight. still did not get diabetes. I am thin (TOFI) and I got diabolics.

PS I lost 8 stone too, and went from 38" to 30" waistband, on that diet. I kept my diabolics.
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I think the sumos are the opposite of my example in that they eat high carb low fat, I think …
 
chrisjohnh said:
I think the sumos are the opposite of my example in that they eat high carb low fat, I think …
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They eat bowls of chanko nabe approx 10 bowls a day and each bowl has around 56g of fat. Not my idea of low fat. The prime ingredient of chanko nabe is ground poultry. ie protein. They do sometimes eat rice or noodles with it.
 
Alrighty. Inuit (eskimos) have a low carb high fat diet. When they were using their traditional diet thay had low incidence of diabetes, but recently the trend has been to increasing. Their diet now includes MacDonlds and coca cola and other imported carbfests so are no longer low carb.
diabetesjournals.org

Prevalence of Diabetes Mellitus in Alaskan Eskimos, Indians, and Aleuts

The prevalence of diabetes mellitus in Alaska Natives has been thought to be low, but no survey of this condition in all natives has been conducted. Medica
diabetesjournals.org diabetesjournals.org

Not sure what point you are trying to make. I know of no one on LCHF diet that thinks it was the cause of their diabetes but then on this site, most of us come pre selected for entry to that club.
 
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chrisjohnh said:
Thinking about low carbs, are there any cases known in which (bizarrely perhaps) someone has lived for years on virtually no carbs but has put on a good deal of abdominal fat by hugely over-eating on fats and protein, and only then has become diabetic with their liver and pancreas clogged with fat? That is, a case in which carbs excess has manifestly had no part to play in either cause or remediation?
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Most of the type 2 diabetics I know haven't become fat due to hugely overeating ANYTHING. The weight gain, particularly around the middle, is a symptom, not a cause. Carbs trigger the laying down of the belly fat. It's called insulin resistance and applies mainly to eating carbs
 
To be honest, what does it matter is a long term carnivore managed to eat themselves to obesity and develop T2? Are you planning on devouring as many cattle, sheep and pigs as you can get your hands on and testing it out?

Given almost any situation there will be exceptions to the "rule", and the thing about diabetes is the "rules" tend to be quite fuzzy around the edges.

Personally, I chose to focus on learning how I could manage my own condition, to get myself into a better place metabolically. I learned a lot along the way and have become involved in research in various ways, but I accept I will never have all the answers, and some answers are likely never to be known for certain.

Anyway, for now, I'm going to get the mower out and get the lawns neatened up, whilst waiting for a couple of new shrubs to be delivered. I know that's good for me. The garden is one of my happy places, which reduces any stress, improves my insulin response and it'll add a few paces to the daily tally. For me, it's about living my best life, and hoping life doesn't throw me too many curved balls. If/when it does, I'll just have to regroup and go again.

Life's too short to try to understand every nuance of everything, when there are adventures waiting to be lived.
 
chrisjohnh said:
I think the sumos are the opposite of my example in that they eat high carb low fat, I think …
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Body builders are high carb too, I think …
AndBreathe said:
To be honest, what does it matter is a long term carnivore managed to eat themselves to obesity and develop T2? Are you planning on devouring as many cattle, sheep and pigs as you can get your hands on and testing it out?

Given almost any situation there will be exceptions to the "rule", and the thing about diabetes is the "rules" tend to be quite fuzzy around the edges.

Personally, I chose to focus on learning how I could manage my own condition, to get myself into a better place metabolically. I learned a lot along the way and have become involved in research in various ways, but I accept I will never have all the answers, and some answers are likely never to be known for certain.

Anyway, for now, I'm going to get the mower out and get the lawns neatened up, whilst waiting for a couple of new shrubs to be delivered. I know that's good for me. The garden is one of my happy places, which reduces any stress, improves my insulin response and it'll add a few paces to the daily tally. For me, it's about living my best life, and hoping life doesn't throw me too many curved balls. If/when it does, I'll just have to regroup and go again.

Life's too short to try to understand every nuance of everything, when there are adventures waiting to be lived.
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Excellent last point.
 
chrisjohnh said:
Body builders are high carb too, I think …

Excellent last point.
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Are you confusing high calorie as high carb? The bulking phase is high calorie high protein. The cutting phase is low fat. The carbs are increased during the building phase where body fat is converted to muscle by exercise. But you are splitting hairs and you need to explain why this is so importqnt to you. I dont know anyone who eats a diet like you describe apart from Mr Creosote in Monty Python and possibly HenryVIII who became very portly but was not known to be diabetic.
 
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Oldvatr said:
Are you confusing high calorie as high carb? The bulking phase is high calorie high protein. The cutting phase is low fat. The carbs are increased during the building phase where body fat is converted to muscle by exercise. But you are splitting hairs and you need to explain why this is so importqnt to you. I dont know anyone who eats a diet like you describe apart from Mr Creosote in Monty Python and possibly HenryVIII who became very portly but was not known to be diabetic.
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To clarify (I hope), I am just curious to know if there are well-attested cases of people developing T2D having had no significant eating of carbs in the years leading up to it. That is all.
 
yes of course there will be some. Type 2 diabetes has different triggers, different causes and it is not just carbs. There is a genetic element to the disease, there are pancreatic issues and inflammations that can cause it. What we find is that reducing carbs does seem to be effective in treating the condition once it has been diagnosed. There is a suspicion that a high carb diet is associated with T2D but association does not mean cause.

The converse that you seek is not observed, and the keto diet has not been in general use until recently so there will be no trend analysis either. Wrong tree. The real cause behind T2D seems to be insulin resistance, and Low carb repairs that so does not cause it. There is another second umpire in this argument - the ND diet effectively verifies it since the diet plan used is actually low carb too by default.
 
Oldvatr said:
yes of course there will be some. Type 2 diabetes has different triggers, different causes and it is not just carbs. There is a genetic element to the disease, there are pancreatic issues and inflammations that can cause it. What we find is that reducing carbs does seem to be effective in treating the condition once it has been diagnosed. There is a suspicion that a high carb diet is associated with T2D but association does not mean cause.

The converse that you seek is not observed, and the keto diet has not been in general use until recently so there will be no trend analysis either. Wrong tree. The real cause behind T2D seems to be insulin resistance, and Low carb repairs that so does not cause it. There is another second umpire in this argument - the ND diet effectively verifies it since the diet plan used is actually low carb too by default.
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Yes, I firmly subscribe to low carbs as the remedy and would never imagine they could cause the problem. Rather I was wondering whether there were counter-examples to the thesis that T2D is prompted largely by a history of eating high carbs.
 
chrisjohnh said:
Yes, I firmly subscribe to low carbs as the remedy and would never imagine they could cause the problem. Rather I was wondering whether there were counter-examples to the thesis that T2D is prompted largely by a history of eating high carbs.
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Again, define what you mean by high carbs please.

Any level higher than a particular person, at a particular time, can handle, is too high for that individual, regardless of the specific amount. That level will vary from person to person, at a different times in a person.
 
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