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Discussion in 'Vegetarian Diet Forum' started by NickCanto, Mar 18, 2019.
I am not familiar with this term. Do you mean an Ovo Lacto vegatarian, or have I misunderstood you?
I agree with this. Fats are essential for health, don't try to cut your diet like that. It's important to know that you're eating healthy foods and this includes dietary fats.
That is, I agree with Resurgam about dietary fats.
@NickCanto where about do you live?
Sorry, Ovcoure you are correct, I was Ovo Lacto vegatarian.
I read about gazillion places on the web about diabetes and nutrition, and I found that diabetes.co.uk provide the most level headed, unbiased, objective, and knowledgeable content of any other English website globally.
That's why I posted here, and I got some good advise indeed. Thank you.
I was obo lacto vegetarian, with canvas shows and belt age 15 to 30.
Now I think that my recent vegan phase must have failed because I could not stick to 15% from fat.
I do want to go to where my health priorities lie, Keto seem to get better A1C results, but I do buy Vegan's claims for other (i.e. Cardio) resutles.
I love the way you put down the 4 options. Thinking like a Scientist/ Engineer, just like myself
My Dad is an engineer. It must be all that early conditioning. haha!
Actually, more recent posts suggest a 5th option that I hadn't thought of, but you cover in your post no28:
- staying vegan and dropping the fat down to the 10-15% level advised on some vegan sites.
To be honest, each of them has some distinct plus and minus points and challenges, and I don't see any of them as being an easy choice.
I see you have continued to post, this is important for others who follow your protocol. Maybe you can share more of your knowledge so which might help them.
There probably is a bit of what appears to Vegan negativity amongst the omnivores and carnivores on the site - this would not be personal; the problem is not with the ethics. I do not speak for all, but I have a problem with Vegan militants and the hierarchy who for example say meat causes diabetes / cancer - how I am meant to take this when I have had animal protein everyday for over 3 years and reversed Type 2 (and several associated issues). Then there is the cholesterol stuff. So when there is criticism it is directed at who the messenger is, I particularly dislike the circulated studies that rely on relative risk with confounders such as smoking etc.
You are not responsible for what others say, but you must have noticed that the essential foods within LCHF / Keto meats, fish, saturated fats, diary and again this week eggs are continually attacked by the Vegan / WFPB hierarchy which gets the ear of every major newspaper and TV outlet and has direct effects on national guidelines, becomes fact and impacts the processed foods delivered by the food giants. Meatless Mondays, Meat Tax, fake meat, these things scare me and it is not the omnivore / carnivore communities pushing these. I hope this explains why things said appear to be critical of Veganism, however the criticism is mainly about truth, freedom to chose, and sensible pricing not influenced by an agenda.
Top of my head....if you look at some like this: https://www.drfuhrman.com I think it provides some idea....virtually no ADDED fats looking at his recipes, though some of the foods do have some natural ones.
I'll go see what I else I can dig up...I've seen quite a few others but have passed them by fairly quickly to be honest.
To be honest, I have a problem with the militants too. Of all stripes. Vegan, omni, carnivore - whatever.
Live and let live - you make your choices and I'll make mine. I wouldn't attempt to tell anyone that my choice would be right for them; how would I know? We each follow our own path in this life.
Here though, in dedicated a Veggie forum, I'd love to discuss veganism with others following this path.
Sorry to read that Wutwo has felt uncomfortable with some posts (perhaps it was a diff thread or I didn't read above clearly).
Has Nick tried some vegetarian protein shakes, eg pea protein?
Am thinking of going low cal in a couple of months and been looking at various shakes, so noticed pea powders. Sorry if I've misunderstood as am still a noobi.
#6: full carnivore
I was vegetarian for 15 years, omnivore 30 year after that, so I have little ethical bias.
My current perception especially reading nutritionfacts.org is that vegan does provide general health advantage compared to omnivore, but my personal experience is that I cannot sustain the low fat (under 15%cal/30gr fat) version of it, which is required to negate diabetes.
So I’ll go back to veg/pesco/obo/lacto/meat to reverse diabetes which I do have, and except the potential risk of cardio/cancer/other that I don't have yet but might develop in the future.
One more point. It seems that although vegan provides better health in most areas compared to omnivores, vegans tend to have higher rates of dementia like issues. (probably due to lack of fat/b12 ? ).
I prefer brain function to most other organs.
Possibly one of the most "fact free" places on the internet..?
Unlikely but always indeed a possibility.. although I believe the evidence is thin on meat being a cause of any of those..
Sensible chap... me too..
I find it believable that a diet of beans/legumes with no added simple carbs, no added fat and not processed in a factory can result in people being less hangy, and therefore losing weight.
Beans/legumes when not over cooked or blended are often adsorbed slowly into the body so can give fewer BG peaks, then would be expected from the carb content.
But I can't see how eating vegan "ready meals" would work.
Personally I consider LCHF with fish/meat/eggs to both be an easy option as well as likely to give better result, but a whole food vegan diet may be better then what most people eat.
I am responding as your post indicates that firstly Veganism is healthier and meat eating is likely to cause cancer. For me neither point is accurate. I'm afraid I do have to say there is not a shred of evidence that a Vegan diet provides better health, I think it is the opposite, as the standard Vegan foods are high carb in general and the bio-availability of combinations of say the equivalent of steak do not work for everyone. I have posted on other discussions the blood glucose results of some of the foods within the standard Vegan protocol, this website does many tests of different foods, and is perfectly in line with what is expected i.e. spikes:
I am sure you can rollout a number of studies, I can also, so where's the truth for those who are making up their mind. I think the truth lies in history first i.e. for example obesity was 2% in the UK at 1970 and diabetes was more than 3 times less, whilst meat red meat was proportionately eaten more, similar can be shown in other industrialised countries, and there is probably no need to cite how indigenous populations in say the Amazon have got on without being Vegan. Those who publish have to answer why diabesity, cancer, alzheimer's etc were significantly less when diets were closer to LCHF (e.g. meat and 2 veg in the UK) than now....the silence would be deafening as meat, fish and dairy have featured in all societies - the problem is a recent one of propaganda. Vegan diets would not be possible without science, which I why it is not a choice for my family and I. Vegan options tend to waved through without challenge, for example on a recent Jamie Oliver and Jimmy food programme children were made aware that their almond milk had just 2% almond content (what were the fillers then), Jamie compared cow's milk and there was no contest, earlier that week even the BBC reported cows milk as the gold standard. I think every single study, claim should be independently verified and rubbish removed.
Nutrition.org is a Vegan authority not a general population independent site, of course the views on there by one of the most prominent Vegans Dr Michael Greger are bound to put down anything animal based.
The absolute longest lived persons have meat in their diet (they also had some bad habits like smoking). When the seventh day Adventists are shown to live long and health the Mormons who eat meat live longer. The studies which show that plant based diets do better, never compare to a well formulated LCHF / Keto diet they compare to the standard diet in that country - anything beats the SAD diet; I think it would be fair to compare to say Dr Fung's, Virta Health, Eric Westmans, David Unwins etc's patients. It is not scientific but on YouTube there are stacks of Vegan to low carb / Keto converters, if you do a search the other way note the lack of cases. The studies self reference and tend to funded by vested interest parties, but they never meet the scientific standards i.e. hazard ratios that trigger a concern - yet they are still relied on. The latest eggs are bad within the last week is a meta study which had results, long story short the relative risk found was 1.06, well below 2, so another scare tactic for the bin - by way of contrast smoking has relative risks of 70+.
Nick, it is up to you, but I would suggest you go deep on research i.e. who is doing the writing, who is paying for it, how was the research conducted (e.g. low carb studies have been done where the carb content was 40% of the meal), are the results the actual results e.g. relative numbers or absolute, were confounders taken into account and finally what does history and common sense tell you.
I'd like to suggest reading Dr Giles Yeo. Gene Eating as a thoroughly good read and an insightful book as to the flaws I many of the more extreme diets (and why many are not as good for us as advertised) I haven't finished reading it yet but so far it's pretty spot on about the how and why and where even some of the medical assumptions are being challenged. Anyone else read it?? (It's very relevant to this thread BTW.)
Vegan AND no fats? Isn't that........ a horse? Cow, Sheep? Or any other animal physically designed to have its nose inches from the field it walks about in?
I mean really c'mon. Take a step back and ask if that's sensible never mind reasonable. Too far off the beaten track for me I'm afraid!