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Veganuary?

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by Walker1178, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. Guna108

    Guna108 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I am vegetarian (I don't eat meat, fish or eggs) and did the Newcastle diet for 2 months then moved onto LCHF. I eat tofu, paneer, tvp, soya mince, pea protein and lupin beans for protein and sometimes cheese. I am vegan most of the time, but sometimes have cheese and my bg has reduced to below diabetic levels. I don't eat pasta/rice/bread or root vegetables and I think it was this that helped me reduce my bg. It is the low carb that works and it is possible reduce your bg on a vegan diet. I'm no expert, but found really useful advice on the vegetarian forum on this site. At diagnosis my HbA1C was 9.5 and went down to 5.6 in 3 months. I just had the second test done and am waiting for the results.
     
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  2. Lotties

    Lotties Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    @Guna108
    Fantastic! I'm glad this site is a broad church with success everywhere.
     
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  3. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

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    Walker - This site has a Low Carb Programme, which can be tailored to individual preferences, whether vegan, mainly veggie, omni or whatever.

    The programme is now available on prescription on the NHS, so your Doc might be able to prescribe it for you. Alternatively, it is a subscription service (after a 7-day trial), so you could consider investing in yourself for a few months?

    Finally, there is a Low Carb 7-day kick starter guide, which is available in a veggetrian (not vegan, in this instance) option. This link shows it at £14.99, but my understanding is (Twitter: https://twitter.com/LowCarbProgram/status/1206164967319359488?s=20) that it is available for £9.99 for December only.

    Edited to add this link - Doh!: https://diabetes-co-uk.myshopify.com/products/7-day-low-carb-kickstarter

    I'm not a sales person here, just pointing out was to try to support your relatively unusual way of approaching things.

    Whatever you do, please do something because those numbers are very high indeed, and won't be doing you any good.
     
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  4. VashtiB

    VashtiB Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Walker,

    Welcome to this forum. Read around as you have been pointed to a number of different areas of the forum -vegetarian and low carb.

    My first bit of advice is that you should start testing more frequently. To test whether your body copes with a particular meal test before and 2 hours after your first bite. if the level rises by more than 2 that meal didn't suit your body. I have found that the less carb s in a meal the less the rise is and sometimes even a drop.

    I'm curious as to why a vegan diet. My daughter is a vegan- young and not a diabetic but is a vegan for ethical reasons- she being a sweet daughter has read around on this site and she thinks if she becomes diabetic it would be difficult for her to go low carb even though she knows that is what would work.

    If you don't have a problem with dairy then a vegetarian diet would probably ly be a lot easier to go low carb. Double cream is very low carb for example.

    I suggest that you try a week of low carb, testing regularly to see what effect it has on your blood sugars- you could then try out the book your mother bought for you and see what happens to your levels.

    This site is really all about what works for you and your body. there are many here on low carb, some low calorie etc. Low carb varies between over 100 grams a day to some (like me) less than 20 grams of carbs a day. The problem with very low carb is the surprising amount of carbs in some vegetables. I'm not even talking potato but cucumber, tomato and onion. On very low carb you would need to keep a log of these as they can really add up the carbs.

    Good luck- please take out seriously- the possible consequences can be really severe.

    Read around, ask questions and test.
     
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  5. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    The vegetable stew in the book you mentioned sent my blood sugars rocketing and they remained high throughout the nexr day. My own version of a stew hardly shows on my meter. I am affected adversly by pulses, beans, chickpeas, most grains including couscous and quinoa. The chickpea curry put me into A&E with vicious heartburn and potential heart attack, but in that case it was pure indigestion

    Make sure you test before and after these new meals until you know with confidence how they affect you personally. Normal test times are 2hrs (for sugars) and 4hrs (for complex carbs) after eating since these are the likely spike times. Keep a food diary to log these results then you can look for trends and adjust accordingly.
     
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  6. LooperCat

    LooperCat Type 1 · Expert

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    I’d really recommend a Facebook group called “vegan keto made simple” - loads of people manage very low carb meals without eating animal products. I don’t eat meat or cow dairy (many low carbers’ staples) because I’m allergic to them, but I manage very well on plants, a little fish and some eggs and goat/sheep dairy. Most of my meals are vegan though, I eat less than 30g carb a day. The Diet Doctor site has some good recipes too.
     
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  7. Mike Sixx

    Mike Sixx · Well-Known Member

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    I am vegetarian and I find very difficult to avoid carbs, all vegetarian protein sources are fairly high in carbs.
    Let's take the basic normal easy protein source a can of bean in tomato sauce: 52g carbs, more than my(*) daily allowance. Even nuts have almost 10% of carbs.

    My point is I been vegetarian (ovo-lacto) almost 30 years, it did not save me from diabetes. On the contrary it might have contributing factor adding the carb load. Meat has no carbs, lean meat has no fats. There are no high protein source vegetables with no carbs, it is even difficult t find vegan protein sources with low carbs. Not impossible, but very hard. I have learned there is no magic one-for-all solution, the traditional (old) diet guidelines work for some people. I would suggest carefully try different things and measure often to see what is good for you and what is not.

    * That is about what by body can take, without insulin.
     
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    #27 Mike Sixx, Jan 1, 2020 at 4:32 PM
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  8. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    The protein issue is of interest to me. My Low Carb diet recommends 1 gram of protein per kg body weight, which is nuch the same for the general populace I believe. Body builders and those on extensive or HIT training should increase the ratio slightly.

    Here is a reasonable discussion on the different sources of protein available to us
    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322827.php#which-is-better-for-building-muscle

    As it states, animal sources are generally more biovalent for humans, and metabolise easily, Plant based proteins are not so complete, and are not absorbed as efficiently as animal protein, Therefore it seems that a vegetarian or vegan will need to eat a more varied diet, and be more aware of which plants contain which amino acids, and whish ones it may be missing. For me a beefburger and an egg probably does me nicely witout have to get the calculator out.

    The other problem with plant based proteins (and vitamins too) is that plants have inbuilt protection mechanisms that actually make the food even more difficult for the body to metabolize. These phytochemicals actually make plants less atractive than the nutrition label may imply. For example. spinach is rich in iron, but in reality you only use a minute amount from a platefull of raw spinach, and zero if it is cooked. But it is touted as being a very high source of iron for vegans. The Impossible Burger Company have to derive their iron using vats of slimy algae to get enough iron to fortify their product, and another large vat of another slime to get the B12 vitamin.

    The following report describes the bioavailabilty of the different protein sources, and generally one needs to eat more plant based product than animal to get a sensible RDA.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6723444/

    I did see a paper that discussed how much I would need to eat if I decide to go vegan. I cannot find the bookmark in my extensive reference list but from memory I think that I need to eat 5x my normal requirement if eating soy isolate or tempeh, and bushels of wheat if using wheatgerm as my source..

    Found a similar treatise on bioavailablity of the amino acids in both animal and plant based sources
    https://www.nutritionadvance.com/animal-protein-vs-plant-protein/

    I see that the "49 plant based protein sources that are better than meat" do not do so well in these last two formal papers.
     
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  9. Majii

    Majii · Member

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    Hey
    I am a long time vegan/vegetarian waft from eating eggs, fish and dairy to solely plant based
    Be warned a lot of meat alternatives are carb based
    Also I suffered dreadfully for first couple of weeks on metformin but then the problems stopped (a few other diabetics I know had similar experience)
    Where do you live?
    Please take your diabetes seriously as you know it can lead to all manner of very serious conditions which we won’t be able ignore - I was in denial for a while but am now able do my own finger prick test (hate needles was a total wreck at thought) but I am still struggling with diet
    I joined my local diabetes group (great people)and some eat what they want pretty much but counter act the effects by walk five or six kilometres three times a week (I have arthritis so couldn’t do that but I walk five or ten minutes each day) baby steps I know but we have to start somewhere
    Good luck and take care of yourself please
     
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  10. Walking Girl

    Walking Girl Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    l’m a vegetarian who Eats mostly all plant based. Not a fan of eggs and too much cheese , but I do like the occasional Greek yogurt. I eat a moderate carb, whole foods, Mediterranean diet - lots of vegetables, including some beans, nuts/seeds and fruit. I personally don’t like Dr. Barnards plan because of the very low fat aspect. I like olives, avocados and nuts too much to cut them severely. That’s why Dr. Furhmans plan worked better for me. He’s fine with limited animal products (no more than 15% of total intake), and says skip the bread, white rice, white potatoes and pasta. If you do not enjoy your diet, you won’t stick with it IMO.
     
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  11. wellperson

    wellperson Type 2 · Member

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    I did Ithrive with Jon MacMaHon last year and lost 20 pounds and my HbA1C came down.. There are lots of brillant Diabetic Doctors in the states , all of whom are Whole Plant Food Based. Dr Furhman and Dr Bernard.. Also look of Dr Esseltyne and Dr Gregar who will explain why you don't want to go on a meat/high protein diet if you value your heart and circulatory system. I did high protein/meat and it worked at first, but then it wasn't working or sustainable for me, then I listened to Dr. Esseltyne.. I hate to think what damage I have done to my heart and blood vessels. Try it for 6 weeks, at least it won't harm you like a high meat, eggs and dairy diet can!!
     
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  12. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    No damage whatsoever...
    What has happened to your HbA1c since the change?
     
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  13. jjraak

    jjraak Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    mmhh...do you have data to back that up,
    or like me did you just swallow all the 'good advice' out there we are expected to just follow ?

    for me i have my own .My Blood Tests going back almost 10 years.

    bloods ratio july 2019.jpg
    from left to right..2010/2011 2x sets of BG, where no one mentioned t2
    middle two my DX hba1c bloods 2018..2nd set after starving myself for the period
    last two, jan 2019..then july 2019 when i hit Hba1c of 40..on LCHF


    as you can see, all my blood tests since going LCHF show major improvements over the so called healthy diet i was eating for so many years and the eatwell plate i followed religiously on DX, only to find i got worse, not better. 56/57 hba1c

    I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, but i love @LooperCat take, that there ARE alternatives.
    she has found a way to go vegan, as have others.
    ( I do like that i have a fall back IF LCHF no longer gives me the results it currently does.:) )

    i like and respect that choice, while having concerns that for ME the diet may lack vitamins and i would lack the will/discipline needed to make it a success.

    @Walking Girl states it best, if you don't enjoy what you eat, will you really stick any diet.?

    O/P liking the suggestion that you try for one week and see how that goes, whether that's meat, veggie or vegan
    i like meat too much, it's easy, simple and tasty..but i also choose veggie for some meals and enjoy

    at the end of the day, for me..the idea is to eat what i can, what i must... to see myself through as well and as healthy as possible to the end of MY days.

    I've just returned from a wonderful two weeks away, where i swam, sunbathed, danced, drank far more then a man of my age should and in a way i would have considered WAY beyond me before i was DX'd and changed my life around.

    genes or good foods..who knows, but it can't hurt to look after yourself a little bit better, can it ?

    If with respect, you have reasons to make that journey vegan. vegetarian many on here can guide,
    but if the reasons are not so entrenched /ethical, maybe an open mind to other diets, might just be best for YOU.

    either way.
    Best wishes for your Journey.
    may you find a way that works for you
    that you can stick to an enjoy...:)
     
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    #33 jjraak, Jan 10, 2020 at 7:39 AM
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  14. LooperCat

    LooperCat Type 1 · Expert

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    Just go clarify, I’m not vegan but I do use a lot of vegan products. I eat eggs, fish and a small amount of goat/sheep dairy, although I mostly eat plants. I really miss meat, so love trying the vegan alternatives, I’ve found the products based on pea protein tend to be the lowest in carbs and suit my style of diabetes management perfectly. The “Beyond” burgers and sausages are absolutely delicious, as are the Vivera kebab meat and steaks.
     
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  15. Diakat

    Diakat Type 1 · Moderator
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    Please remember that Forum rules mandate respect for individuals and food choices. Some recent posts on veganism have not shown such consideration. Posts will be deleted and thread bans implemented for further attacks or infringements.
     
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  16. TwoTone

    TwoTone Type 2 · Member

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    Hi walker1178. I have been a T2D for 15 years. Two years ago I stopped eating meat. Since then my HbA1c tests are headed down and I have gradually had my dosage of metformin reduced. I have also increased the quantity of carbs I eat. I still eat eggs and a little cow milk in tea and coffee. Other milk needs are filled by oat milk - for breakfast cereal and custard!
    Before being diagnosed T2D I was diagnosed with gout. Eating meat increases intake of purines which is metabolized by the body to form uric acid. This is the source of gout. It may also cause other issues with soft tissue. Also, by eliminating meat, I have significantly reduced the protein intake. Overloading on protein has some serious side effects. Please use your favourite search engine to follow up on this.
    Bottom line, the best thing I've ever done to manage diabetes is to stop eating meat. My current morning BG tests are around 6 mmol/l and last HbA1c was 6.8% tho trend is down.
    If you are going to give leaving out meat a go, beware of vitamin B12 deficiency - serious stuff and mimics T2D symptoms.
    Pasta was bad for me too!
    Good luck.
     
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  17. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    @TwoTone we ask that those making claims provide their own references please.
     
  18. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    What are purines?
     
  19. andromache

    andromache · Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a great idea to use the New Year as an opportunity to start turning your health around. As others have said, though, cutting out those carbs should surely be your priority. I think that's where your focus needs to be, and there is a risk that the vegan thing is just a distraction from that and - worse - will make doing the right thing more complicated and difficult for you, at the very time that you need to be concentrating your whole attention on reducing carbs and concentrating on nutrient-dense low carb foods like (I would suggest) meat and eggs.

    Maybe vegan is something you can look forward to experimenting with, once you are back in the driver's seat, having brought your diabetes back under good control. But I do think that it is probably a project for another day.
     
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  20. TwoTone

    TwoTone Type 2 · Member

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    • Informative Informative x 2
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