What Would Count as a Cure for Type 2?

LittleGreyCat said:

In my opinion (for what it is worth) an effective cure for type 2 diabetes would have to eliminate insulin resistance whilst there are still enough beta cells to handle any glycemic load up to an OGTT. Fasting and post meal BG levels should be in the normal range, as should the HbA1c, without any major dietary constraints.

This would, of course, recognise that you have a metabolic vulnerability which led you to develop T2 in the first place and thus it could return if you abuse your system repeatedly.

I see that some people would require a return to full functionality of the pancreas. I would consider it a cure if the pancreas still had enough functionality to last out the rest of my life. Everything wears out eventually so if my pancreas was in line with everything else (apart from my knees) I would consider that effectively a cure; or so close not to be worth arguing about.

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midnightrider said:

I believe a 'cure; to be possible if caught early enough. Insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome appears to be caused by visceral fat around the pancreas and liver, though there are of course other causes too.
In early stages, the metabolism of carbs is hindered but damage to the pancreas is small. If the visceral fat is removed through diet and the metabolism is increased/improved through exercise the cause of the problem is removed and the condition may be regarded as cured.
If all BG readings are well within the normal range whatever food is eaten, and without any medication being taken I believe that 'cure' is an appropriate definition. If the low BG is due to a very low carb diet, this cannot be seen as a cure, though it may be just as effective in preventing complications.

I haven't had a FBG over 4.5 in over 6 months, and my last HbA1c was 31 despite averaging 180g/day of carbs. Sure, if I put weight on again the problem may return, but if I hit my arm with a hammer my broken arm may return. For now I have no intention of stopping testing as I may be wrong.

It is of course the case that for many people, damage to the pancreas is too severe by diagnosis for this approach to be feasible. In which case, eliminating carbs may be the answer.

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I tend to go along with these types of views. And it does happen for some people.

To avoid arguing over words, I'll just say that if that ever happened to me, I'd be so happy I wouldn't care whether people called it "cure", "remission" or "dfasjhhfsd".

NoCrbs4Me said:

I have normal blood glucose levels and am not on any meds. I consider that cured.

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Nocrbs, do you think that you are cured then or merely holding it at bay through diet? If you were to eat 'normally' do you think it would come back?

World-first trial to cure diabetes with parasitic hookworms

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http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/hookworms-against-diabetes!/8590092

http://www.cairnspost.com.au/news/w...k=eb4e9dc3470ac441cc8491c883be632b-1515875520

All I can say is best of luck with that...

Tipetoo said:

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/hookworms-against-diabetes!/8590092

http://www.cairnspost.com.au/news/w...k=eb4e9dc3470ac441cc8491c883be632b-1515875520

All I can say is best of luck with that...

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Oh My Days! Methinks I will stick to low carbing but thanks anyway!

Tipetoo said:

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/hookworms-against-diabetes!/8590092

http://www.cairnspost.com.au/news/w...k=eb4e9dc3470ac441cc8491c883be632b-1515875520

All I can say is best of luck with that...

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Haha!

Then again it's given me some ideas...

I think there's a reasonable chance that, if I'd had a ravenous hamster living in my mouth for the last 20 years, helping me deal with what I'd put in there, I might not have Type 2. The Hamster Cure. You read it here first

Side effects possible.

This study gives rather pause for thought, Here is the blood sugars of 10 healthy athletes, not one of whom is diagnosed as being diabetic.
Practically every one of us would be doing something to try to change something if we had these numbers. I ere on the side of its the carbs that are abnormal not those with diabetes. 44

CherryAA said:

This study gives rather pause for thought, Here is the blood sugars of 10 healthy athletes, not one of whom is diagnosed as being diabetic.
Practically every one of us would be doing something to try to change something if we had these numbers. I ere on the side of its the carbs that are abnormal not those with diabetes.

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based on these picture it certainly looks like its the carbs that is the oddity not the people !

CherryAA said:

This study gives rather pause for thought, Here is the blood sugars of 10 healthy athletes, not one of whom is diagnosed as being diabetic.
Practically every one of us would be doing something to try to change something if we had these numbers. I ere on the side of its the carbs that are abnormal not those with diabetes. 44

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I hope Athlete 09 has been warned.

CherryAA said:

based on these picture it certainly looks like its the carbs that is the oddity not the people !

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Pretty astounding.

It's impossible to correlate unless those specific athletes are followed up for life, but it made me curious as to the life expectancy of athletes in general! I just checked and it seems it's pretty good - above average.

I've always wondered about what we really know about glucose patterns and damage. Most studies I've read say either that continually high levels are bad, and/or that high spikes are bad. But could it be that, in the right circumstances, spikes such as those seen in these athletes are dealt with well, due to other factors?

For example is there insulin data to go along with that glucose data? Someone with Type 2, eating to produce glucose patterns that match those athletes, may have different insulin patterns.

Or maybe the damage is the same for athletes and people with Type 2, but there are other advantages to being extremely athletic which help to compensate.

Type 2 is only diagnosed after blood glucose levels rise enough to be spotted by routine tests or to cause symptoms that get investigated.

Most (never assume all) type 2s only get raised bgs because insulin resistance has risen high enough to cause that raised blood glucose.

So raised blood glucose in type 2s is a symptom of insulin resistance.
So type 2 is (usually) a condition of insulin resistance, with raised blood glucose as a symptom not the cause.

And insulin resistance may predate the raised blood glucose by decades (thoroughly shown by Kraft and decades of testing)

Raised insulin causes other health problems too (heart disease, alzheimers, etc.) which may also predate type 2 diagnosis.

Personally, i don’t think that blood glucose levels being ‘normal’ are at all helpful in indicating whether insulin resistance is present, since blood glucose tests don’t show insulin resistance.
insulin resistance can be gauged by tests - which are not routinely carried out.

So there are plenty of people walking around with normal blood glucose AND insulin resistance. These people may be moving towards diabetes, or they may have ‘reversed’ or ‘cured’ their type 2.

But if the underlying insulin resistance is still there in the background, invisibly harming them, untested, unseen, then they are not in my opinion either ‘reversed’ or ‘cured’.
A better description would be ‘apparently asymptomatic’.

For me, if people are going to claim a ‘cure’ they need to have normal blood glucose AND no insulin resistance, while eating a diet that will maintain this indefinitely. Also, since no one can claim to know the future, i think they should have experienced this cured state for a good few years before making the claim.

AdamJames said:

Haha!

Then again it's given me some ideas...

I think there's a reasonable chance that, if I'd had a ravenous hamster living in my mouth for the last 20 years, helping me deal with what I'd put in there, I might not have Type 2. The Hamster Cure. You read it here first

Side effects possible.

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All my food tastes like cr*p.

Oh.

Ew!

Edited by moderator for language

if insulin resistance is caused by fat build up...then remove the fat and the resistance reduces. is that cured ? ...well, maybe whilst fat remains low.

lots of factors here...carb load + rate of release into body (GI), insulin output, insulin resistance, liver glycogen level.. and body's current demand for energy.

I think that it is possible to lose weight and eat a lower carb diet, which fits your body's current capabilities. "cured" maybe the wrong way to think about it.

maybe it is just a recognition that as we get older, our bodies cant cope with the carb abuse anymore.

so less carbs in the diet with a thinner body ...which gets good blood sugars...is just the new norm for an aging body.

Grateful said:

So what would count as a "cure"? It would have to eliminate a chronic and progressive illness.

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Welcome back @Grateful! You were missed!

There are definitions in the literature for acute and chronic illness. An acute illness is of short duration, cured by a course of medication as @Rachox said above. A chronic illness is generally defined as one that last 3 months or longer, including conditions that have periods of remission and periods of relapse. The conceptualization of a chronic illness may be slightly different among various different stakeholders, such as the individuals living with the condition, public policy makers, public health officials, academics, and the medical community. We all have different vantage points.

Here is a link to a good article: ‘Use Your Words Carefully: What Is a Chronic Disease?’

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969287/pdf/fpubh-04-00159.pdf

As many have mentioned above, the most important conceptualization we have is our own: what diabetes means to us personally, and what our own definitions are for cure/remission/relapse/control etc. For me, at this point in time, I see T2DM as a condition that I have managed to control well with HFLC diet and eating to my meter. I also believe that epigenetics play a part: many of us may very well have a genetic predisposition to develop T2DM under the right environmental circumstances, and that the dietary guidelines from 1980, based on very questionable science, created those very circumstances.

I don’t really get caught up in the semantics: Sugar is a toxin for me and I try to avoid it as much as possible in any of its guises.

KK123 said:

Nocrbs, do you think that you are cured then or merely holding it at bay through diet? If you were to eat 'normally' do you think it would come back?

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The standard western diet is not healthy, so that’s an irrelevant question in my opinion.

I believe doctors typically use an Oral Glucose Tolerance Test (OGTT) as a method which can help to diagnose instances of diabetes or insulin resistance.

In this test you take a fixed dose of glucose of about 70 grams (after fasting for 12 hours); then;

People without diabetes

Fasting value (before test): under 6 mmol/L

At 2 hours: under 7.8 mmol/L

People with impaired glucose tolerance (IGT)

Fasting value (before test): 6.0 to 7.0 mmol/L

At 2 hours: 7.9 to 11.0 mmol/L

Diabetic levels

Fasting value (before test): over 7.0 mmol/L

At 2 hours: over 11.0 mmol/L

I was at HBA1c 11 and now latest is 5.4 with lowest it went was 4.8

1. Hate it or love it, you gotta keep sugar far far away, I reached 4.8 when i was completely off of refined sugar or sugary drinks
2. Key is moderation, you can add sugar here and there, best is to develop a taste for low sugar, at point I used to just add banana to my oatmeal to have that sugary tinge to it and goodness of banana. Go with natural sugar if you must and why shouldn't you you have every right to enjoy and tickle those taste bud but keep it in moderation.
3. Say no to meat or poultry or reduce - I know they don't raise sugar because they are protein but there are protein from pulses, grains etc. that way you eliminate Cholesterol as well. if you are worried about b12 or stuff, take a good vitamin pill.
4. Sleep well - Stress spike your sugar
5. MEDITATE! - Stress spike your sugar

I have never felt better in my life, I eat almost everything but in moderation. and if that keeps my sugar between 5.2 - 5.5 without no guilt whatsoever I am CURED.

neer said:

I was at HBA1c 11 and now latest is 5.4 with lowest it went was 4.8

1. Hate it or love it, you gotta keep sugar far far away, I reached 4.8 when i was completely off of refined sugar or sugary drinks
2. Key is moderation, you can add sugar here and there, best is to develop a taste for low sugar, at point I used to just add banana to my oatmeal to have that sugary tinge to it and goodness of banana. Go with natural sugar if you must and why shouldn't you you have every right to enjoy and tickle those taste bud but keep it in moderation.
3. Say no to meat or poultry or reduce - I know they don't raise sugar because they are protein but there are protein from pulses, grains etc. that way you eliminate Cholesterol as well. if you are worried about b12 or stuff, take a good vitamin pill.
4. Sleep well - Stress spike your sugar
5. MEDITATE! - Stress spike your sugar

I have never felt better in my life, I eat almost everything but in moderation. and if that keeps my sugar between 5.2 - 5.5 without no guilt whatsoever I am CURED.

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May I ask why I should get protein from pulses and grains that spike me rather than from meat and poultry that doesn't? I am not afraid of sat fat or of cholesterol so that argument holds no sway with me.

We are all unique, you have seen great results with your chosen diet but telling people to eat grain based foods when many, many people can barely tolerate them is a little thoughtless imo.

NoCrbs4Me said:

The standard western diet is not healthy, so that’s an irrelevant question in my opinion.

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Ok, thank you, it was relevant to me but never mind.

Bluetit1802 said:

But are you still treating it with diet?

I also had normal glucose levels and no meds but after being ill, a stay in hospital, stress over the type of illness diagnosed, and tablets that are well known to raise levels, I am experiencing higher levels. I don't like it. Would this happen if I were "cured" ? I don't know the answer to that.

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I am sorry you have been ill Bluetit. I hope you will soon be feeling better and wish you strength and health for the New Year.

Tannith said:

I am sorry you have been ill Bluetit. I hope you will soon be feeling better and wish you strength and health for the New Year.

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Thank you.