Why no health warnings for carbs?

[Phub]

But this fundamentally isn't true. If you regularly eat two slices of bread a day alongside a healthy diet of normal proportions, it's highly unlikely that it will contribute to obesity.

Tim,

On the contrary... I think it's highly likely bread will contribute to obesity. Not maybe in the quantities you eat my friend, but even one slice of wholemeal bread causes greater insulin spikes than you would get from a spoonful of white sugar. To my mind, any diabetic who regularly eats bread is playing with fire.

I believe bread is NOT a natural food for us. Yes, it comes from a natural source, (wheat) but it has to be made, and I consider it to be a processed and unnatural food. It's also my belief that we should eat only foods that are natural to us. It's not easy to find these foods at a reasonable price these days, but certainly we can avoid processed food. If you are a hardened bread fan Tim, may I suggest you read Davis's 'Wheat Belly'?

Cheers
Phub

Edited to remove scaremongering comment.

 

[Phub]

Yes true for diabetics but not for most people who can eat them perfectly well as part of a healthy diet so why would they want to give them up

The problem is Pinkorchid, even non diabetics will have insulin spikes from eating these starchy foods. So, if they don't exercise enough, there is still the likelihood of putting on too much weight, which might be one of the precursors of diabetes. Don't forget, we in Europe have been eating potatoes only since the 1600s. At least that is, if the history books tell us the truth about Raleigh and his discovery in the Americas.

And there is some confusion with excess weight and diabetes; at the moment, the jury is out on which one causes the other.

 

[tim2000s]

I think it's highly likely bread will contribute to obesity. Not maybe in the quantities you eat my friend, but even one slice of wholemeal bread causes greater insulin spikes than you would get from a spoonful of white sugar.

Why do people keep quoting this rubbish statistic? Insulin response is dependent on both type and amount of carbohydrate consumed. As a result a teaspoon of sugar has much less of a GL than a slice of wholemeal bread, as the wholemeal bread contains about 15g-20g of easily digestible carbs.

So while, yes you will get a greater insulin spike from a slice of bread compared to a teaspoon of sugar, if you were to eat a tablespoon of sugar, you'd see very little difference between that and a slice of wholemeal bread. Serving size is all important.

Equally, if that bread is eaten with a meal that contains normal amounts of fats, proteins and carbs, the GL is also likely to be reduced.

So statements that "its highly likely that bread will contribute to obesity" need to include the context of "when eaten in large volumes as part of a diet that is too high in overall calories", as you allude to in the statement that you make at the end of the line I've quoted from you.

And we already knew that in the majority of cases, obesity is caused by eating too much, and especially too much of the wrong things.

 

[noblehead]

No I don't think there should be a health warning on carbs because for most healthy people they can eat them without any problem as part of a healthy diet so why would they want to give them up.... carbs are not unhealthy for everyone and not everyone overeats on them
I was born the year WW2 started so for the first few years of my life I grew up with food rationing and it did not totally stop until the early 50s Starchy carbs were the basics of every families diet especially potatoes with every meal and lots of bread every day yet you very rarely saw an overweight person or heard of T2 diabetes yes they did have more active lives people walked far more and children played outside the illnesses of the past that killed thousands like TB had died out and no one starved in this country during the war so people became much healthier. I believe if we stopped going everywhere in cars walked more and we still ate the way people did then even with the starchy carbs but without all the processed foods, takeaways and snacks we still would not have the big problem of diabetes and obesity that we have now The problem is far more than just food though it is the lifestyle in general that we live now that is not as healthy as it was back then

There was a discussion about obesity on the Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 programme around two weeks ago, the guest was Dr Sarah Jarvis who regularly appears on the show, she was saying a lot of the problems now lays with our sedentary lifestyle and also the fact that our portion size at meal-times have increased substantially...........which I have to agree with.

When I was a child very few people on our street owned a car and people would walk to work or school, work back then and beforehand work was very labour intensive as compared to the industries we have now.

 

[Robinredbreast]

There was a discussion about obesity on the Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 programme around two weeks ago, the guest was Dr Sarah Jarvis who regularly appears on the show, she was saying a lot of the problems now lays with our sedentary lifestyle and also the fact that our portion size at meal-times have increased substantially...........which I have to agree with.

When I was a child very few people on our street owned a car and people would walk to work or school, work back then and beforehand work was very labour intensive as compared to the industries we have now.

Very true.

 

[Robinredbreast]

Tim,

On the contrary... I think it's highly likely bread will contribute to obesity. Not maybe in the quantities you eat my friend, but even one slice of wholemeal bread causes greater insulin spikes than you would get from a spoonful of white sugar. To my mind, any diabetic who regularly eats bread is playing with fire.

I believe bread is NOT a natural food for us. Yes, it comes from a natural source, (wheat) but it has to be made, and I consider it to be a processed and unnatural food. It's also my belief that we should eat only foods that are natural to us. It's not easy to find these foods at a reasonable price these days, but certainly we can avoid processed food. If you are a hardened bread fan Tim, may I suggest you read Davis's 'Wheat Belly'?

Cheers
Phub

Edited to remove scaremongering comment.

Wheat and 'bread' making was around in the Egyptian times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_bread

I am not a hardened bread fan, but it is down to choice in what we consume, how much and where it is purchased from.

The scaremongering should be vented at the vast number of take away's, the coffee shops that pop up in towns's and cities everyday, so much convenience foods too.

As I don't drive, I take the bus a lot and I see ( and hear)!! so many people are eating packets of crisps at 10am in the morning, eating sweets, a frothy milky drink in their hand, bottle of coke/pepsi and that, I feel, is a high % of the overall problem. Everything nowadays is out there for our convenience.

 

[phoenix]

If bread were the culprit I shouldn't be living in a village with sprightly 80+ year olds who have spent years eating bread dipped in their coffee for breakfast, bread with soup at 'souper' at about 11am, bread to mop up the sauce with their lunch and more bread with some fruit and cheese in the evening. ( the only shop within 10km is a boulangerie which sells huge wheels of bread with a very hard crust so it doesn't get stale so quickly )


There's evidence that a whole spectrum of macronutrient composition can work for diabetes and more to the point of the original post long term health
Most healthy diets do seem to be low in processed foods but even that isn't necessarily always true either as Denise Minger describes here
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in...-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/#more-13758

 

[Phub]

So bread was around in Egyptian times? It was around long, long, long before then, usually unleavened, but bread nonetheless. Another argument put out by the 'grains are healthy' lobby. Sorry, but as a species we have been eating bread for but a couple of weeks, in the context of how long we have been here in our present evolution. So we have not yet had time to adapt our gut to handle grains and the foods made from them.

As for bread not being fattening, who is kidding who? If I go back on the bread, I immediately start to put on weight. And at 76 years of age, with physical problems, I can't exercise enough to 'burn' off the fat. If in fact the 'cals in = cals out' theory is correct anyhow! It doesn't really work like that completely in any case. We don't need anywhere near the amount of exercise the fitness manics suggest we do; as long as we eat fresh food, and leave out the processed muck.

What surprises me is hearing Diabetics insisting that bread is okay for them to eat. Well, clearly they won't listen to anything I put forward, so on their heads be it. I really can't waste time on that debate.

 

[Daibell]

Why do people keep quoting this rubbish statistic? Insulin response is dependent on both type and amount of carbohydrate consumed. As a result a teaspoon of sugar has much less of a GL than a slice of wholemeal bread, as the wholemeal bread contains about 15g-20g of easily digestible carbs.

So while, yes you will get a greater insulin spike from a slice of bread compared to a teaspoon of sugar, if you were to eat a tablespoon of sugar, you'd see very little difference between that and a slice of wholemeal bread. Serving size is all important.

Equally, if that bread is eaten with a meal that contains normal amounts of fats, proteins and carbs, the GL is also likely to be reduced.

So statements that "its highly likely that bread will contribute to obesity" need to include the context of "when eaten in large volumes as part of a diet that is too high in overall calories", as you allude to in the statement that you make at the end of the line I've quoted from you.

And we already knew that in the majority of cases, obesity is caused by eating too much, and especially too much of the wrong things.

Yes and the wrong thing is typically carbs and too many

 

[Daibell]

So bread was around in Egyptian times? It was around long, long, long before then, usually unleavened, but bread nonetheless. Another argument put out by the 'grains are healthy' lobby. Sorry, but as a species we have been eating bread for but a couple of weeks, in the context of how long we have been here in our present evolution. So we have not yet had time to adapt our gut to handle grains and the foods made from them.

As for bread not being fattening, who is kidding who? If I go back on the bread, I immediately start to put on weight. And at 76 years of age, with physical problems, I can't exercise enough to 'burn' off the fat. If in fact the 'cals in = cals out' theory is correct anyhow! It doesn't really work like that completely in any case. We don't need anywhere near the amount of exercise the fitness manics suggest we do; as long as we eat fresh food, and leave out the processed muck.

What surprises me is hearing Diabetics insisting that bread is okay for them to eat. Well, clearly they won't listen to anything I put forward, so on their heads be it. I really can't waste time on that debate.

Don't forget diabetes covers a wide range of poor glucose management depending on the degree of pancreatic failure and/or insulin resistance. I sometimes see posts on this from from those with HBa1cs in the 5% area who are essentially pre-diabetic and can eat bread reasonable freely thru to those with extreme issues. One can't be compared with the other when it comes to carb tolerance.

 

[Lamont D]

I walk for ever! My life was not sedentary, far from it!
I ate bread and carbs for England!
I ate junk food, chips with everything, even salad!
I like processed food, I love curries!
I ate all the wrong stuff.
I've been on all the diets, they never worked!
Except one!

There is the reasons I was diagnosed and misdiagnosed with diabetes.
There is a lot of misinformation that causes blood glucose disorders out there, metabolic conditions that include diabetes, thyroid and the so on, the list is long and not necessary for this thread.

What it is, is how personally you deal with what you put into your mouth, individually!
How and what or even why our body deals with any particular food types is unique to each and every one of us.

I personally can't tolerate carbs and sugars, in whatever quantity.
So I don't eat them!
I eat to my meter and what makes me well. I with help have discovered this, by experience.

Back to the op poster.
No I don't, a warning is too much! But carb content should be on there so you can make a personal choice.
Education is so important and at the moment it is very limited.

What creates diabetes or the other hormonal problems.
Well I believe your liver controls what happens in your body to what you eat and the release of all the different hormones and cells and all the other chemicals that inhibit our body including good and bad gut bacteria, the balance is so important. Too much of one directly influences the other, and so on. For instance, I produce excess insulin, that leads to a knock on effect of not enough of other hormones, this creates visceral fat and weight gain, this leads to more imbalance and other symptomatic problems.
Stop the excess insulin and the problems start to recede.

The lack of insulin in diabetic patients is symptomatic of high blood glucose levels. The knock on effect of high bloods is long and awful!

So what is the answer,?
No matter your upbringing, like me in poverty, not much options in food. Eating to survive till your next meal, if lucky the same day. Or if your upbringing was plenty of good sources of nutrition and health. It all helps in the individuals fat threshold and how we invest and digest food. Little things make a difference.
A varied healthy diet, not too much of one type of food and a little and often, good fresh fruit and vegetables, meat and carbs, little and often, a treat now and then!

It does all come down to what we individually can cope with!

Thank whoever for low carb lifestyle!

 

[LucySW]

My elderly father is 92 and still eats carbs, we were brought up on them. We ate toast, cereal, or a boiled egg for breakfast. Home cooked food of, stews, mince and tatties, pearl barley soup, lentil soup, chops, boiled potatoes and veg, fish cooked in milk, fruit bowl was always full, a fish supper or a visit to the Wimpey was a treat ( I was a teenager in the 1970's)



My dad is living proof.

I used to be taken to the Wimpy for treats in the 70s !! Plaice, peas, tartare sauce ! Knickerbocker glory - do you remember it??? Oh - what a memory !

 

[Phub]

I walk for ever! My life was not sedentary, far from it!
I ate bread and carbs for England!
I ate junk food, chips with everything, even salad!
I like processed food, I love curries!
I ate all the wrong stuff.
I've been on all the diets, they never worked!
Except one!

Not exactly sure what you are saying here, but if you haven't changed to a low-carb, then bully for you. How lucky are you! If you have changed, then that pretty much mirrors my own experience. The one diet that worked for me, way back in 1979 was the Atkins; no more than the LCHF diet, but with 'ketostix' and strict recording of carbs, to find your personal tolerance levels. I just stick to leafy green vegetables, and flesh. That works for me.

 

[Lamont D]

Not exactly sure what you are saying here, but if you haven't changed to a low-carb, then bully for you. How lucky are you! If you have changed, then that pretty much mirrors my own experience. The one diet that worked for me, way back in 1979 was the Atkins; no more than the LCHF diet, but with 'ketostix' and strict recording of carbs, to find your personal tolerance levels. I just stick to leafy green vegetables, and flesh. That works for me.

I've been in ketosis for nearly two years, since diagnosis.
I'm not diabetic.
I have to eat very low carb!

I was trying to put across that the more I learn and read about blood glucose disorders, how individual every case is and what effects me, might not affect somebody else.

But the common factor from my experience is that reducing your carb intake will benefit your future health.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

But this fundamentally isn't true. If you regularly eat two slices of bread a day alongside a healthy diet of normal proportions, it's highly unlikely that it will contribute to obesity.

Totally agree, I eat a sandwich made from a multi seeded wholegrain loaf most days for my lunch when I dont have soup or a slice of quiche or something and my weight has been stable for the last 5 years and for the previous years 2 to that I actually lost 5 stone (70 lb) but at no time did I stop eating bread, I just stopped eating white and wholemeal breads

 

[Phub]

My problem is I am caring for my wife, who isn't carb restricted and I make the 'house-bread'.

I find it extremely difficult to resist that first crust from a nice, warm seeded granary loaf; dripping with beef fat; despite knowing what the bread does to me! So far so good. I have held out sans bread!

 

[RuthW]

Right, so you combine carbs and a lot of fat, and then blame the carbs for the ensuing insulin resistance, when it is known to be the *combination* of fat and carbs that is the problem, not the carbs on their own, or the fat on its own. But people can eat bread without fat, and their calorie consumption will not be excessive. I defy anyone to eat dripping on its own.

 

[Phub]

Ruth,


Thanks for the contribution. I wouldn't blame carbs in general for any weight gain. I would blame only starchy, refined carbs and sugar of course. I'll check up on that 'mix of carbs and fat' idea. There is probably something somewhere online I can 'mug-up'.

However, I doubt I will discover why mixing carbs and fat doesn't affect me. I lose weight, on LCHF, and my blood sugar readings are always normal. As I said, my carbs are all simple carbs, green vegetables, and a little fruit in the form of berries. So other than that, I dunno!

Thanks again.

Phub.

 

[RuthW]

Simple carbs means glucose or fructose usually. High GI. You were talking about granary bread and fat together. Granary bread usually contains a fair amount of fibre (low GI) but then the manufacturers usually add maltose, which raises the GI again. The fact that carbs and fat together lead to prolonged elevated blood sugar is not new. Insulin pumps for T1s have special bolus types for "the pizza effect."

 

[Pinkorchid]

So bread was around in Egyptian times? It was around long, long, long before then, usually unleavened, but bread nonetheless. Another argument put out by the 'grains are healthy' lobby. Sorry, but as a species we have been eating bread for but a couple of weeks, in the context of how long we have been here in our present evolution. So we have not yet had time to adapt our gut to handle grains and the foods made from them.

As for bread not being fattening, who is kidding who? If I go back on the bread, I immediately start to put on weight. And at 76 years of age, with physical problems, I can't exercise enough to 'burn' off the fat. If in fact the 'cals in = cals out' theory is correct anyhow! It doesn't really work like that completely in any case. We don't need anywhere near the amount of exercise the fitness manics suggest we do; as long as we eat fresh food, and leave out the processed muck.

What surprises me is hearing Diabetics insisting that bread is okay for them to eat. Well, clearly they won't listen to anything I put forward, so on their heads be it. I really can't waste time on that debate.

Why do you particularly target bread and grains as being the cause of obesity maybe it is for some but not all My husband is 83 and all his life he ate a lot of bread he was a real sandwich addict and every morning he had cereal and toast and jam for breakfast but he was never overweight. He was diagnosed with T2 about 18 months ago probably his doctor thinks steroid induced because he took them for 3 years for Polymaligia which he is now in remission from so the steroids are stopped. As soon as he stopped eating all bread and sugar stuff the weight dropped off him even though he did not need to loose it so after a while he started to have some Bergen bread and his breakfast every day now is porridge and 2 slices of Bergen toast and 2 or 3 days a week he has a Lidl roll for lunch but he has never put back the weight he lost. He is still very active so probably burns off a lot of calories and only about a month ago he lifted all the paving slabs on our quite large patio and garden path about 120 of them cleaned them all and relaid them all over about 3 days. His last 6 month HbA1c average GB level was 5.6