Why won't the NHS tell you the secret to treating diabetes?

Tannith said:

"tracking BG levels pre and post meals (with measured carb loads)"
That's exactly what the OGT does. Track BG levels against the measured carb load of 75 g glucose.

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But it doesn't tell you what specific foods do to you. And it lasts for hours and hours, damaging your pancreas.

It's been explained up thread about the importance of finding your personal reaction to different amounts and types of carbs.

It's not only about showing you have a reaction to carbs, it's about formulating a sustainable way of eating without doing harm to yourself.

Your previous ogt results have shown that a harmful reaction to carbs is happening. Now your focus needs to be about long term prevention of further harm to your whole body.

I am writing this to explain aspects of self testing you may not be aware of.

By testing after eating I know, for instance, that to remain in my self imposed limits, I should eat swede or cauliflower, not potatoes or parsnips. I seem to be staying steady at a Hba1c of 42 year on year, which is a great relief to me.
I have no interest in finding out what happens to me if I were to consume large amounts of carbs for days as required for the response to glucose tests - it is simply not part of the way I want to treat my body.

Tannith said:

"tracking BG levels pre and post meals (with measured carb loads)"
That's exactly what the OGT does. Track BG levels against the measured carb load of 75 g glucose. That's why I did it. In time it will tell me when/whether I have reached my Personal Fat Threshold. And whether or not I am one of the unlucky ones who have now had T2 for too long for the low calorie diet to work. If I am unlucky, I shall have to consider which of the remaining 2 alternatives (low carb or metformin) to choose. But that could take 8 weeks or so so I have to be patient.

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OGT is a tool used to diagnose if someone is type 2.... if you are already type 2 then I cannot see any reason to keep repeating it.
It's a large glucose load, no doctor would keep repeating this test over and over once a person is diagnosed type2.

You've actually seen what it does to your levels and how long they stay high for. I can only imagine the insulin response needed to get you back to around normal. Which is how you create insulin resistance or worsen it. Which of course opens the door to fatty liver, heart disease, stroke risk etc. This is a very unhealthy practice for a type2

A meter is such a simple easy way of measuring without causing systemic damage.

Low carb isn't an unlucky option, it's an approach with significant success that allows people the freedom of eating well and healthy without feeling hungry all the time. It doesn't mean you can't eat carbs.

This week's FBGs:5.3;4.5;4.4;5.1;4.8;4.7;6.0
Again an improvement but only a tiny one. Diet is now on pause for christmas for at least a week. I shall resume in New Year.

Tophat1900 said:

OGT is a tool used to diagnose if someone is type 2.... if you are already type 2 then I cannot see any reason to keep repeating it.
It's a large glucose load, no doctor would keep repeating this test over and over once a person is diagnosed type2.

You've actually seen what it does to your levels and how long they stay high for. I can only imagine the insulin response needed to get you back to around normal. Which is how you create insulin resistance or worsen it. Which of course opens the door to fatty liver, heart disease, stroke risk etc. This is a very unhealthy practice for a type2

A meter is such a simple easy way of measuring without causing systemic damage.

Low carb isn't an unlucky option, it's an approach with significant success that allows people the freedom of eating well and healthy without feeling hungry all the time. It doesn't mean you can't eat carbs.

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I must be doing it wrong because low carb is making me feel hungary all the time

aard said:

I must be doing it wrong because low carb is making me feel hungary all the time

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What are you eating?

aard said:

I must be doing it wrong because low carb is making me feel hungary all the time

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Are you counting calories? Have you increased protein and fats to replace the cut carbs?

How long have you been doing low carb? There is a “withdrawal” period as your bod6 adapts to getting its energy from other sources and the appetite hormones reset themselves back to a more functional and appropriate level. Think of it as a full body toddler tantrum at the withdraw of sugar (carbs)

Tannith said:

“When fat cannot be safely stored under the skin, it is then stored inside the liver, and over-spills to the rest of the body including the pancreas. This ‘clogs up’ the pancreas, switching off the genes which direct how insulin should effectively be produced, and this causes type 2 diabetes.”

The findings have been recently published in the academic journal Cell Metabolism.

Professor Taylor added: “This means we can now see type 2 diabetes as a simple condition where the individual has accumulated more fat than they can cope with.

“Importantly this means that through diet and persistence, patients are able to lose the fat and potentially reverse their diabetes. The sooner this is done after diagnosis, the more likely it is that remission can be achieved.

This is the reason I think that weight loss should be the first go-to solution tried for T2 ie it has the best chance of working in the first 4-6 years after diagnosis, before the beta cells have become irrevocably damaged. I think the time to try managing the condition with low carb or drugs is after remission by healing the beta cells has been tried and failed.

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What Roy Talor and his team accomplished was a repeatable, scientifically valid study protocol that has demonstrated that there is a direct link between the adipose/hepatic fat in the body and Insulin Resistance. They also established that this level of fat can be effectively removed by following an ultra-low calorie-restricted (starvation) diet. From this, it has been postulated that this was a cure for diabetes.

Unfortunately, not all obese people have diabetes or insulin resistance. Secondly, not all T2 diabetics are obese or have IR caused by adipose fat, and there are other causes of IR it would seem. So it worked for some (46% from memory) but not all the participants. Lastly, this forum has a lot of anecdotal evidence that the effects of the diet wear off in time, and like most calorie reducing diets, need to be repeated like a yo-yo. Those that succeed in maintaining remission seem to follow some form of follow-on diet to keep their condition in check. Similarly, there is quite a lot of anecdotal evidence that carb restriction has as much effect, and appears to be a more sustainable way of life.

IMHO Roy Taylor has made an important contribution to the treatment of diabetes but has not found the golden bullet. His is only one pathway to Shangri-la, and there are others. He offers another useful (evidence-based) tool that the NHS can offer to diabetics. But Low Carb is also NHS adopted as a treatment method, but not as a way of life, The LC training course offered on this website is also available 'on scrip' and the work on LC by Dr David Unwin has also be recognised as valid, although there has been a technical issue over some of the infographics he used.

Oldvatr said:

Unfortunately, not all obese people have diabetes or insulin resistance. Secondly, not all T2 diabetics are obese or have IR caused by adipose fat, and there are other causes of IR it would seem.

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I totally agree. My best friend has been 15 stone for at least 50 years and has totally normal blood sugars. When I was diagnosed I was 9 stone and far too skinny so there was no way losing weight would help. My hb1ac was 125.
Thank goodness low carb worked to get my diabetes in remission and I am now diabetes resolved - but only because I stay very low carb.

FBGs This week Fri 4.8;Sat 5.2; Sun 5.0;Mon 5.8;Tue 4.8; Wed 5.3; Thur4.4. A tiny 0.07 increase on average for last week. But I am still pleased with it given that I have been eating Christmas dinners with roasties and yorkshires al week. Plus Christmas pudding, mince pies or trifle to follow. I have deliberately put my diet on hold for the Christmas period. I have put on one and a half pounds over this same week.

Tannith said:

FBGs This week Fri 4.8;Sat 5.2; Sun 5.0;Mon 5.8;Tue 4.8; Wed 5.3; Thur4.4. A tiny 0.07 increase on average for last week. But I am still pleased with it given that I have been eating Christmas dinners with roasties and yorkshires al week. Plus Christmas pudding, mince pies or trifle to follow. I have deliberately put my diet on hold for the Christmas period. I have put on one and a half pounds over this same week.

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You may not have been dieting, but your carb intake looks about the same as before.

Oldvatr said:

What Roy Talor and his team accomplished was a repeatable, scientifically valid study protocol that has demonstrated that there is a direct link between the adipose/hepatic fat in the body and Insulin Resistance. They also established that this level of fat can be effectively removed by following an ultra-low calorie-restricted (starvation) diet. From this, it has been postulated that this was a cure for diabetes.

Unfortunately, not all obese people have diabetes or insulin resistance. Secondly, not all T2 diabetics are obese or have IR caused by adipose fat, and there are other causes of IR it would seem. So it worked for some (46% from memory) but not all the participants. Lastly, this forum has a lot of anecdotal evidence that the effects of the diet wear off in time, and like most calorie reducing diets, need to be repeated like a yo-yo. Those that succeed in maintaining remission seem to follow some form of follow-on diet to keep their condition in check. Similarly, there is quite a lot of anecdotal evidence that carb restriction has as much effect, and appears to be a more sustainable way of life.

IMHO Roy Taylor has made an important contribution to the treatment of diabetes but has not found the golden bullet. His is only one pathway to Shangri-la, and there are others. He offers another useful (evidence-based) tool that the NHS can offer to diabetics. But Low Carb is also NHS adopted as a treatment method, but not as a way of life, The LC training course offered on this website is also available 'on scrip' and the work on LC by Dr David Unwin has also be recognised as valid, although there has been a technical issue over some of the infographics he used.

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I hope the below answers your question regarding T2s with low BMI:
The curious belief that individuals can be classified on the basis of an arbitrary cut off derived from population statistics is prevalent, even though a glance down any high street shows that people come in different size and shapes…. In the same way, an individual with a body type with a healthy BMI of, say, 20 may run into metabolic problems if it creeps up to 24 kg/m2. 10% of people with type 2 diabetes happen to have a BMI less than 25 kg/m2. In the nurses’ health study there was a four-fold increase in prevalence of type 2 diabetes in women with a BMI of 23–25 compared with those who remained at less than 22 kg/m2.36 They had simply acquired more fat than they personally could cope with, and this has been described as exceeding their personal fat threshold

Summary
Type 2 diabetes is a simple condition of having acquired more fat than the individual’s body can cope with. Excess fat has accumulated in liver and pancreas and the individual’s beta cells are susceptible to fat induced dedifferentiation. In a high proportion of those with short duration diabetes a robust and practical means has been developed to achieve or re-establish non-diabetic glucose control long term.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/

Calorie restriction for long-term remission of type 2 diabetes. Roy Taylor, director of Newcastle Magnetic Resonance CentreA ...

by R Taylor · ‎2019 · ‎Cited by 14 · ‎Related articles

As to the 40% of obese people who don't get T2, that is because not everyone stores excess fat on their pancreas. Many are able to store it safely under the skin.

@Tannith Even if the above piece by Professor Taylor is correct, we need to bear in mind that we aren't just diabetics. We need to look after the whole body and I don't believe forcing the body to be, in effect, underweight is good for us. The body needs to be nurtured, not starved into behaving itself.

Tannith said:

I hope the below answers your question regarding T2s with low BMI:
The curious belief that individuals can be classified on the basis of an arbitrary cut off derived from population statistics is prevalent, even though a glance down any high street shows that people come in different size and shapes…. In the same way, an individual with a body type with a healthy BMI of, say, 20 may run into metabolic problems if it creeps up to 24 kg/m2. 10% of people with type 2 diabetes happen to have a BMI less than 25 kg/m2. In the nurses’ health study there was a four-fold increase in prevalence of type 2 diabetes in women with a BMI of 23–25 compared with those who remained at less than 22 kg/m2.36 They had simply acquired more fat than they personally could cope with, and this has been described as exceeding their personal fat threshold

Summary
Type 2 diabetes is a simple condition of having acquired more fat than the individual’s body can cope with. Excess fat has accumulated in liver and pancreas and the individual’s beta cells are susceptible to fat induced dedifferentiation. In a high proportion of those with short duration diabetes a robust and practical means has been developed to achieve or re-establish non-diabetic glucose control long term.


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc › articles › PMC6399621


Calorie restriction for long-term remission of type 2 diabetes. Roy Taylor, director of Newcastle Magnetic Resonance CentreA ...

by R Taylor · ‎2019 · ‎Cited by 14 · ‎Related articles

As to the 40% of obese people who don't get T2, that is because not everyone stores excess fat on their pancreas. Many are able to store it safely under the skin.

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When I click on the first link it says 'blocked' in the URL.

When I search for the article number, I can't see the first two paragraphs you quote. Are they from the same article?

However, the summary that type 2 diabetes is simply a matter of excess fat is not the whole story regardless of who stated it.

I wasn't aware that I had asked a question. The theory that we all have a fat threshold comes, I believe, from Roy Taylor, and is not a mainstream viewpoint. I happen to accept this as a possibility, but what we seem to have missed, and he has missed too, is that there are two ways IR operates. One seems to be due to hepatic fat excess, as demonstrated so well by Roy Taylor, but there is also mitochondrial IR in the muscle and skin tissue. He has not provided proof that both of these are dealt with adequately by his protocol.

One IR is governed by the Krebs Cycle, and the other by the TCA cycle. The Krebs cycle is controlled primarily by insulin and adrenaline, and the TCA cycle by other enzymes such as grehlin and its adjunct whose name I forget. These enzymes are from different organs in the body, so may well have different mechanisms in terms of IR, and so different solutions supposedly. So I do not consider Roy Taylor has a silver bullet for us. He introdus=ces us to a useful tool, thats all.

I agree that BMI is a poor indicator of poor health. I didn't say otherwise, but it is the current definition of obesity. My wife was 8 stone when I married her, but children and life ballooned her to 19 stone. I had hovered at 9 stone TOFI for most of my adult life. I got diabetes, my wife did not, I ballooned to 18 stone after DX, but am now back to 10 stone. I still have diabetes. My weight was caused by diabetes, not the other way round.

lucylocket61 said:

When I click on the first link it says 'blocked' in the URL.

When I search for the article number, I can't see the first two paragraphs you quote. Are they from the same article?

However, the summary that type 2 diabetes is simply a matter of excess fat is not the whole story regardless of who stated it.

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Yes both paragraphs are at the end of the article https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/
However I cut some sentences out that were a bit repetitive or not relevant to Oldvatr's post as I wanted to shorten the quote. https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwncla...ncecentre/files/Web list of reversal publ.pdf is a list of all his publications on the topic if you want to inform yourself of the whole story

I shall be going back on my diet on Jan 7th as previously decided. I don't look forward to it, as who likes dieting? I shall probably have to continue for at least another 6 to 8 weeks given that I have put a bit back on over Christmas. But what really terrifies me is that it might possibly not work. I know that I have for certain been T2 for 4 years and possibly even 5. And I am constantly thinking of the statistics for remission starting to be not so good at around 4 years. Just have to keep my fingers crossed that I shall turn out to be one of the lucky ones (60% approx) who can put their T2 into reverse with the low cal diet after 4 years of T2.

Tannith said:

I shall be going back on my diet on Jan 7th as previously decided. I don't look forward to it, as who likes dieting? I shall probably have to continue for at least another 6 to 8 weeks given that I have put a bit back on over Christmas. But what really terrifies me is that it might possibly not work. I know that I have for certain been T2 for 4 years and possibly even 5. And I am constantly thinking of the statistics for remission starting to be not so good at around 4 years. Just have to keep my fingers crossed that I shall turn out to be one of the lucky ones (60% approx) who can put their T2 into reverse with the low cal diet after 4 years of T2.

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I hope it goes well but if it doesn’t please come back and reread our suggestions should you be looking for a what next idea.

I love being on a low carb diet. I have added in a few extra carbs - up to 60 gm a day for the 12 days of Christmas, but have only exceeded 40 on a couple of days, as we had Christmas at home rather than as planned.
I bought cheeses, sausages, even some fruit for a plum pudding but it was all too much for just the two of us. We might get through it all by the middle of January and the pudding will do for next year.

Tannith said:

I shall be going back on my diet on Jan 7th as previously decided. I don't look forward to it, as who likes dieting? I shall probably have to continue for at least another 6 to 8 weeks given that I have put a bit back on over Christmas. But what really terrifies me is that it might possibly not work. I know that I have for certain been T2 for 4 years and possibly even 5. And I am constantly thinking of the statistics for remission starting to be not so good at around 4 years. Just have to keep my fingers crossed that I shall turn out to be one of the lucky ones (60% approx) who can put their T2 into reverse with the low cal diet after 4 years of T2.

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I'm still diet controlled after being diagnosed 7 yrs ago. I've fell off the wagon but climbed aboard again and take control, I'm succeeding it does take a little while.
I don't fancy being a statistic in like those who attended Diabetes UK meet which I thought could give support. Some of them were suffering complications because they follow the NHS advice.
I stopped going.