Will YOU ask your Dr for the 600 cal diet

[NewdestinyX]

and she certainly helped me on the road to diabetic control,

You're not alone here. Many ultra low carbers have found her blog to be a sort of 'bible' of the 'purer way'.

On her web site (see about the author) Jenny says she rarely eats over 100 grams of carbohydrate a day, hardly an ultra low carber Grant and neither am I, I may reduce my carb intake to the amount I can tolerate but that amount is a long way from being ultra low carb, at least by most peoples standards, perhaps you should read some posts instead of just writing them :wink:

I am 'well' aware of Jenny's positions on these topics, Sid. I never comment unless I'm well studied in an area and have come to conclusions after careful consideration. I'm sure that's true of you too. But Jenny's, without a doubt, a 'true believer' in ketosis producing/very low carb.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Sid. I never comment unless I'm well studied in an area and have come to conclusions after careful consideration. I'm sure that's true of you too. But Jenny's, without a doubt, a 'true believer' in ketosis producing/very low carb.

Do tell me how anyone can produce ketosis eating 100g of carbs a day, ill try it myself?

 

[ernie100]

Hi
The opinions are interesting...after reading alot of the research information published and after speaking to the department concerned (Newcastle Uni) I have discussed this with my doctor (who us also Diabetic). He gave me the go ahead and so I am now day 3 into the programme of shakes x 3 and raw veg/ soups. I have lost 5 lbs in 3 days and will have blood test done in 10 days. Ok I see the criticism and can to certain extent understand it (yet another miracle cure), but as stated the science is sound for the short term effect on glucose levels ....
So I am happy to give it ago.......will keep you posted.

 

[Patch]

Good work, ernie! I'm also tring this, but without the veg. Check out my thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22908&start=15

and Kenny's:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22832&start=45

 

[ernie100]

Hi Patch and everyone
Thanks for your support and please accept mine....
Re exercise...I asked Professor Taylor office and he recommended that if exercising hard every day (eg 1 hour gym, Pliates etc) ...all under supervision, then could increase calorie intake from vegetables from 200 to 600 calories.NB this was general advice..and not tailored to me specifically.
From what I understand it is as important to get direct raw veg fibre (or even cooked from soups etc)....the web site gives some soup suggestions etc. By the way salads can be dressed with a LIITLE Olive oil (total 1 table spoon per day) with a littel balsamic vinegar. Also sous can be enhanced with chilli (if like me you wil miss the currys).
Also try having the veg separate...and then an hour or two later have the shake...it spreads out the load on the system, helps stave off hunger,gets the body used to small regular inputs of food and does'nt overload the liver and digestive system. I also take omega 3 oil, good multi vitamin and milk thistle ...all twice per day....these help the liver and digestive system.

Also I have to say...alot of brickbats are thrown at this concept....thats fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinions....but before you comment please read the actual research paper...

 

[Patch]

Nice post, ernie. Depending on my "treat" on Monday (the weigh in) I may start to add veggies to my diet.

 

[ernie100]

Hey cant wait (or weight?) for yr weigh in... I lost 7 lbs in 3 days.....yee hah and am feeling great. Blood test next Wednesday to check fasting level and hopefully reduce Metformin doseage....

 

[bowell]

ernie100
...yee hah and am feeling

[youtube]8e1xvyTdBZI[/youtube]

 

[borofergie]

I'm almost halfway through day 3, I don't feel too bad. Managed to shed 6.5lbs in the first two days.

I'm using bowell's diet sheet, which is actually 800 calories (3x200cal shakes plus 200cal vegetables), which I think is a better fit because I need to run 12 miles next week.

My initial fears about the carb content of the shakes were unfounded - I do spike slightly to over 7mmol/l @1 hour post shake, but this drops to 6 mmol/l @ 2 hours, and I spend most of the rest of the time 4.5-6 mmol/l, which is a bit lower than my standard low-carb diet.

Couldn't do without the vegetables though. 200 calories of brocolli and salad is quite a lot, and helps to temporatily fill my belly.

 

[Patch]

Beginning of Day Eight, and weigh in time.

-10lbs!

Good times! Still haven't had any food (7 days is a record!), and like the idea of being able to tuck into some veg if I absolutely have to, and stil lnot fall off.

Onwards and upwards!!!

 

[Bontboy]

only got my first diagnasics on 27/7/11

 

[NewdestinyX]

Beginning of Day Eight, and weigh in time.

-10lbs!

Good times! Still haven't had any food (7 days is a record!), and like the idea of being able to tuck into some veg if I absolutely have to, and stil lnot fall off.

Onwards and upwards!!!

CONGRATS!, Patch! Keep up the good 'hard' work!

For those reading -- any very lo carb diet will also produce about 10 lbs of weight loss in the first 7-10 days.. The first 4 lbs is always the liver emptying of glycogen+water in combo.. Then real fat burning begins. So at any given time - the 4 lbs we lose or regain is what they call 'water weight' - though more accurately put it's water + glucose = sugar water or (glycogen).

 

[Patch]

For those reading -- any very lo carb diet will also produce about 10 lbs of weight loss in the first 7-10 days.. The first 4 lbs is always the liver emptying of glycogen+water in combo.. Then real fat burning begins. So at any given time - the 4 lbs we lose or regain is what they call 'water weight' - though more accurately put it's water + glucose = sugar water or (glycogen).

Very interesting. Thanks for that. Does that mean that liver dumps will stop/reduce in severity? My fasting BG's say "YES". :wink:

(Although - I don't think what I'm doing IS lo-carb. Can I expect to dump another 4lbs of water weight when I DO eventually get back on lo-carb?)

 

[NewdestinyX]

Very interesting. Thanks for that. Does that mean that liver dumps will stop/reduce in severity? My fasting BG's say "YES". :wink:

If your liver is truly empty of glycogen there is nothing left to dump - though remember that the process of gluconeogenesis kicks in too - that's the liver turning protein into glycogen. But 'that' glucose will be used readily and immediately for the body's needs, namely the brain so it shouldn't full up as reserves in the liver.

(Although - I don't think what I'm doing IS lo-carb. Can I expect to dump another 4lbs of water weight when I DO eventually get back on lo-carb?)

Depends.. Anything under about 70 carbs a day produces ketosis (which is properly considered 'ultra lo carb')and an emptying of the liver. Aren't you eating less than 70g of carbs a day on this diet?

 

[borofergie]

(Although - I don't think what I'm doing IS lo-carb. Can I expect to dump another 4lbs of water weight when I DO eventually get back on lo-carb?)

60g of carbs is kind of low...

I've lost 10lbs in 3 days (800kcal + 5 miles running), apart from a slight headache, I feel great.

Since I went straight from a low-carb (<40g) diet, on which I was losing a few pounds every month, to an 800kcal diet, then I doubt that there was much for my liver left to dump.

 

[Patch]

60g of carbs is kind of low...

Aren't you eating less than 70g of carbs a day on this diet?

Yup. I'm taking in around 60g per day (3 sachets x 20g(ish))

I always thought (and I got this from Atkins New Diet Revolution) that Ketosis starts at around 30g per day of carbs? I did wonder what the weight loss mechanism of Optislim is if not Ketosis...

 

[pianoman]

.... Anything under about 70 carbs a day produces ketosis (which is properly considered 'ultra lo carb')and an emptying of the liver. ...

What are you sources for these claims? Namely the level at which ketosis is produced and your definition of 'ultra lo carb' :?: Something others could read for ourselves would be preferred.

BTW I don't see a direct answer for Patch's question "Does that mean that liver dumps will stop/reduce in severity? " Are you saying that at around 60g Carbs per day (plus Protein) from the shakes, his liver will be "truly empty of glycogen" :?:

 

[Sid Bonkers]

.... Anything under about 70 carbs a day produces ketosis (which is properly considered 'ultra lo carb')and an emptying of the liver. ...

What are you sources for these claims? Namely the level at which ketosis is produced and your definition of 'ultra lo carb' :?: Something others could read for ourselves would be preferred.

BTW I don't see a direct answer for Patch's question "Does that mean that liver dumps will stop/reduce in severity? " Are you saying that at around 60g Carbs per day (plus Protein) from the shakes, his liver will be "truly empty of glycogen" :?:

I thought that to enter ketosis you needed to be eating less than 40g carbs and even then you would be in and out of ketosis, but I am no expert on ULC so I could be wrong.

 

[pianoman]

I thought that to enter ketosis you needed to be eating less than 40g carbs and even then you would be in and out of ketosis, but I am no expert on ULC so I could be wrong.

That fits with my understanding too Sid but maybe we will see some 3rd party sources to back up these assertions... although I'm not holding my breath in anticipation.

As for "Ultra Low Carb" I wouldn't feel bad about any lack of expertise -- I have none either; as I am not aware that the term is even used by any HCPs or researchers.

Any absolute number makes little sense anyway: as we are all different sizes and with different metabolisms: 50g carbs will have a different impact on an 4'9" woman than a 6'6" man... this is why researchers use terms like "low carb" in a relative manner.

 

[NewdestinyX]

There of course is a different place at which each person enters ketosis. But it is somewhere between 40-70 from all I've read. The point is - the when someone enters ketosis - that's not a 'natural' state for the human body - so I term it (as do medical practioners and dietitians) an 'extreme level' of low carbing and it is not recommended long term. Still many report doing fine staying in ketosis. I guess their long term outlook and health will 'get the final say' if you will. Suffice it to say most T2's low carb (lower) to some degree. If the human non diabetic person maintains weight and has sufficient energy around the recommended daily intake of 300grams of carbs and an athlete then takes in more than that - then simple logical and proper use of the English language allows for anything that's 'LESS THAN HALF" of the 300 to be considered 'low' carbing. From zero carbs to the point a person kicks themself OUT of ketosis (40g-70g or so) is all extreme low carbing. Again - dietitians and medical doctors don't believe this to be safe for the human body long term - whatever you think of their conclusions -- that's their conclusion. From 70 or so on up to 150 or so can rightly be considered 'low carbing' - not to an extreme - since it's less than HALF the recommended daily intake.

I know on Diabetes boards -- there is this 'artificial' distinction made that <30-<50 is the only arena that should be named LOW CARB.. That's just not good scientific measure. That's "ideology".